Is the IBC dying ?

O tempora o mores...

indeed alexandra !

but having said that, i have to say that instagram (which is far different than fakebook) is pretty dang fun...

Vance Wood wrote:My take on the situation is that IBC started dying when the so called moderators started intruding themselves into every aspect of the site  to the extent  that having any kind of vigorous and heated discussion become impossible----IMHO.  There were incidents where you were admonised about posting about certain subjects.  

yup! I told them that...but I got admonished too from telling them exactly that. what an irony.

Wishing all the best for IBC.
BTW, I met a few weeks ago some of IBC old timers in our convention in China  (the biggest artists convention ever) including Tony Tickle and Bill Villavanis, Robert Steven, and some more IBC guys. Wow! IBC would have proud if it was done then. Several of us from this site performing on stage with some of the best artists on the planet 70 plus artists and masters from all over the globe -38 countries in all, doing demo simultaneously.

We owe part of our bonsai journey to IBC, that I am thankful of!

regards,
jun

jun... you and your work are always welcome back here...

things do not always remain as they once were

This is the first time I've visited the forum for a loooong time. I'm active on Bnut, and that seems to be a busier forum, so has been my mainstay. It's very difficult to remain involved in a forum when you take the time to post, and all you hear back is the wind whistling thru the pines so to speak... I did enjoy this site while there were more contributors, but who knows, it may make a resurgence, only time will tell.

JudyB wrote:This is the first time I've visited the forum for a loooong time.  I'm active on Bnut, and that seems to be a busier forum, so has been my mainstay.  It's very difficult to remain involved in a forum when you take the time to post, and all you hear back is the wind whistling thru the pines so to speak... I did enjoy this site while there were more contributors, but who knows, it may make a resurgence, only time will tell.

Same here. Interesting, I just posted a few days ago after being absent for. Oh I don't know. Half a year? Now me being absent is no great loss. The more experienced growers like yourself.. That is.

A forum is made by the members. So if every member who posted in this thread would start posting at least once a week about one of their own trees, the forum would be more active, maybe drawing in more active users?
That being sad.. I am active on some other forums which are flooded with new users every day. Showing cuttings and ginseng ficus with brown leaves asking how to rescue their bonsai. One could wonder whether that is a better situation to be in.

Sadly, some of the comments here are precisely why I no longer take much of an interest in this forum. I left the facebook group because it lacked any sort of quality - the quality which this forum still has despite its current slumber.

But here are some facts about the moderation process:

1. I dealt on average with about six PMs a week from people who had forgotten their username and/or password. Often these messages were cordial but on occasion they were downright bloody rude, including the chap who accused me of being tardy with my response (I took about an hour to get back to him and it was at 3AM my time!!) to the point where he let forth the wonderful statement that I should have answered immediately because THAT'S WHAT I WAS BEING PAID FOR. If only, if only ....

2. And those "admonishments". Not one of those was ever taken lightly and with the very few instances where instant action had to be taken, all were done in consultation. In my own case, hard action was usually only taken when defusing situations with humour failed. Additionally, for every time a moderator has to put a warning comment on, there has usually been a spate of behind the scenes PMs from members complaining about what this one has said or that one has done. Most were simple tantrums, some were clearly personal feuds spilling over on to the forum, and one or two were a LOT darker that, I assure you. But a large number of actions taken were the result of member complaints int eh first place. I hope no-one is suggesting that moderators should ignore any of this.


For my own part, frankly I got fed up juggling around people's hissy fits and plain bloody rudeness. Funnily enough (ironically even), Vance Wood was never one of the names that I had down as a bad guy.

I dip into the forum only very occasionally to see what everyone has been up to with their trees. This thread has not encouraged me to make any sort of more permanent return. A warm thanks to those who have supported me through some pretty tough decisions that I have had to make over the years. I genuinely wish the IBC well as it retains a quality (note I have not said intellectualism - sorry Khaimraj LOL) that is needed in Bonsai as facebook in general (with a few exceptions) offers little other than a space to post poorer quality trees and images taken from elsewhere on the internet.




Shine like an arclight
Sing like a bird might sing

Hi Fiona,

fiona wrote: (...) This thread has not encouraged me to make any sort of more permanent return.  A warm thanks to those who have supported me through some pretty tough decisions that I have had to make over the years.
(...)

Don't leave us.

I mean, I was a member long before this version of IBC - must have the database of the old IBC before it went down on a spared hard drive

You've devoted a lot of energy beong a moderator, always with class.

Don't leave us: OK, you want to pass the hot potato, but without someone like you, this place wouldn't be the same.

So, post as a member if you prefer, but do share with us, you're a precious person here.

If this place folds, I will have nowhere to lurk. I will NOT go back to -Nut.

If Arthur Joura would renew his thread, it would freshen things up, but maybe he has said all he wants.

HI all!

As you are well aware I do not post often, but I do read often. I generally confine myself to commenting on things about which I actually know something. The life or death of IBC is not one of those so this is a bit of a risk…

The question posed was “Is IBC dying” but I think that presupposes a number of other questions (some of which have been previously stated in this thread):

1) Is the decline in IBC participation due to its nonconformance with posting norms on other fora?

Perhaps. But these other fora exist. Participation here and there is purely elective. In an open environment users will go where they perceive their reward for participation is of the most value for their effort.

2) Is the decline in IBC participation due to heavy-handed censorship by moderators?

Perhaps. But why? (I must first inform that I was asked to become a “moderator” on IBC some years ago.) Isn’t having a moderated public debate to insure civility and logic a long-standing tradition in discourse? I realize that the role of moderator in public discourse has come under assault of late in various venues and has been compared to “censor” or “influencer.” But moderation of public debate with the intent of maintaining civility without influencing content is I think the best way to pass on reliable and openly tested information to others.

3) Is the decline in IBC participation due to the absence of postings by some or many bonsai “stars”?

Perhaps. But such things are bound to happen. “Stars” due what “stars” must do to retain “stardom”. IBC has never really been a “star vehicle”. Certainly, some very talented artists have been (and some gratefully continue to be) frequent posters to IBC and as such the extent of their talent has become more well known. But it is my view that some “out-grew” IBC and hence stopped posting. It is also my view that that is fine. As I stated previously, participation is elective.

4) If IBC does at present have fewer regular participants than other bonsai fora should it somehow change itself to compete?

Hmm? I don’t think the central question is about competition with other fora or for the number of users, it is about utility. Does IBC fill a need and if so how can it best do so, bearing in mind that IBC is a collective and does not (should not) rely on any individual. I for one think that no real change is necessary. I do not say that because I want to maintain the site as it is. Look at my posting history, this is not a significant part of my life. I say this because as a long-time reader of IBC I have found it to be the single most reliable source of information regarding the cultivation of small trees and tree-like plants in pots on the internet! If one wants posting traffic regarding a comment they posted, IBC may not be the best venue. If one wants affirmations regarding bonsai progress or prowess, IBC may not be also the best venue. But if one wants well-reasoned and drama-free responses to reasonable questions about the cultivation of trees and tree-like plants in pots, then for my money I would go to IBC!

Yours,
David B.

well put david... and well thought out...

i have had many folks ask why i do not participate on b-nut as they thought that forum was more my style... and while in any other endeavor in my life, the free-for-all, almost anarchistic, style of that forum would suit me just fine, i surprisingly (even to my self) prefer the relative calm of the IBC... granted, some of the flare ups here made for most entertaining reading, but i was also glad when they had run their course, either by design or by moderator intervention. (i also do not at all like all the varied sub-forums on b-nut and find it unnecessarily convoluted)

and yes, i, like many others, really do miss some of the rock-stars that would visit here, but like real rock stars, they come and they go...

there are still many participants here that i admire and respect, so that is good.
david - you are one of those... as is khai, andre and too many others to mention

there are also a good number of new members who are bringing some impressive material and skills to this virtual table !

and fiona - i am glad you have popped in and i hope you continue to do so as it might be more fun for you as a participant, rather than a moderator...
i am sure it would be a refreshing change from dishing out virtual canings
(seriously though - i always admired your attempts to diffuse situations via humor)

Does anyone care what I think? I don't want to put my face on something just to be made into a target, so I await a reply.

Hello Vance - we do not know one another, but I at least do care what you think.  I am not certain at present about the particulars of your concerns.  Perhaps you can send me a private message to explain?  I do not commit to being able to resolve your concerns, but I do commit to trying to do so.

David B.

My Opinion for what it's worth, probably two folds of toilet tissue, is two fold. For years it has been the unspoken policy that you cannot discuss anything that its not approved by the elite or moderators who have proven that their excrement does not stink. I know that's a little harsh but sometimes there are subjects that come up that may not be about bonsai particularly but subjectly apply in a large way. I started a discussion on the environment a number of years ago and I was informed that my usage of the term environmental Gestapo was out of line. I have also noticed that a good percentage of those who belong to the Grand Order of the Non-Stinking-Poo-Poo can say almost anything they want to and about anyone with impunity but as soon as you point this out you will be quickly put in your place. I have also noticed that no one seems to be posting here any longer. There are those who complain that no one is posting anything but they don't post anything either. The most new posts I have seen at anytime recently is three, and two of those are repeat performances. I have also noticed that those who in the past seemed to have the most to say seem to think they are now too good to post anything for the rest of un-educated earth dwellers to appreciate or understand. Blasting Bonsai Not for the way they handle their forum does not help this one. At least Bonsai Nut has content. It's up to you to read it of ignore it.

David Brunner wrote:Hello Vance - we do not know one another, but I at least do care what you think.  I am not certain at present about the particulars of your concerns.  Perhaps you can send me a private message to explain?  I do not commit to being able to resolve your concerns, but I do commit to trying to do so.

David B.

David: I hope we can talk at some point. I hope what I put here does not make you run away I am really not a bad guy but I am honest and refuse to have someone feed me crap and tell me it's cake while they pee down my back and tell me it's raining.

I apologise for the slightly tangential nature of this post (and for not responding to Vance's comment above - sorry Vance your opinions are always welcome in my book) but seeing David's name again reminded me that he was responsible for starting what I felt was one of the most interesting and thought provoking threads on this forum, Bonsai - Why?

This thread never really reached a satisfactory conclusion in my view (as I recall) but to some extent some the ideas did re-surfaced in Arthur Jura's thread. What it did do however was start me off thinking about bonsai as art and why any of us engage in any artistic endeavour and what potentially might be achieved through bonsai, which was actually quite profound considering that as a novice I'd only really come here looking for basic "how to" advise and to look at the pretty pictures of the little trees etc.

Anyway, that's all I've got to say for the moment so thanks David.

Regards

Richard

Of course here is one of the subjects that can become boring and go no where or very controversial and create ill will. Why bonsai and why would any of us be interested in art in the first place?  As things are today no one wants to really delve into human nature or admit that they are part of it.  On one hand we ask the question on the other hand we are quick to condemn those who would be so bold as to answer that question honestly from their point of view.  Let's see where this one goes. As you said David's post never reached a satisfying conclusion, assuming there is one to be reached, and seemed to be left hanging if I may add my own twist to it. Lets see if we can finish it now. I think you may be surprised at what surfaces.

Hello again Vance!

Please know that if I choose to run away from this forum it will not be for anything that you or anyone else may have posted. (If that should happen it will be from life events, and I do not consider IBC nor any other internet interaction a life event.)

I know that I should recall your post regarding the environment, but alas I do not, and I also do not have the inclination to search for such as it just seems like stirring up past hurts. My purpose is to put past hurts behind us.

I do however encourage moderation in public dialog. This is not to say any of your previous interlocutions on this site have not been moderate, and I have no reason nor interest to investigate such. However, it does seem that you harbor some anger toward some “moderators” of this forum. If you would like to speak more specifically, please let us do so personally.

As to your cake and rain I will also refrain from comment as I know some which might find such a real delight. To each their own!

Thank you Vance for your passion!
David B.

Richard - thank you for your response and your kind words! Vance has already responded. Since this seems of interest, let's start a new thread... Or perhaps I can divine a method for restarting the last. I doubt that we will reach a unified conclusion on why we all practice bonsai, but sharing our individual reason again may prove illuminating. But this much is certain, a conversation on "why bonsai" deserves a thread different from the present one.

David B.

"Environmental Gestapo" reference thread:

Environmental Gestapo

I don't know, I have mixed feelings after reading through the thread. I used to spend pretty much all of my internet bonsai time here, but I moved over to bnut at some point. So I'm now more used to the way things are over there...which is pretty much, "un-moderated", or "wild west". A discussion like the above would never have been stopped on bnut. It was here. Sometimes those kinds of discussions go down dark paths and should be stopped (the one above? not so sure). But, a lot of the time, the discussion winds its way back to the original topic, or sometimes the side discussion becomes more interesting and relevant than the original topic. Kind of like real world conversations.

Different strokes for different folks, maybe? Or, the people have spoken...bnut is much more active than IBC. You get the same kind of good information there. You also get a lot of extraneous crap, bickering, some outright hostility. But, there is an ignore function for those who specialize in that kind of stuff.

David Brunner wrote:Hello again Vance!  

Please know that if I choose to run away from this forum it will not be for anything that you or anyone else may have posted.  (If that should happen it will be from life events, and I do not consider IBC nor any other internet interaction a life event.)

I know that I should recall your post regarding the environment, but alas I do not, and I also do not have the inclination to search for such as it just seems like stirring up past hurts.  My purpose is to put past hurts behind us.

I do however encourage moderation in public dialog.  This is not to say any of your previous interlocutions on this site have not been moderate, and I have no reason nor interest to investigate such.  However, it does seem that you harbor some anger toward some “moderators” of this forum.  If you would like to speak more specifically, please let us do so personally.

As to your cake and rain I will also refrain from comment as I know some which might find such a real delight.  To each their own!

Thank you Vance for your passion!
David B.

I hold no ill will against anyone, the environment gestapo incident goes back many years and I don't now remember much of it.

I used to frequent B nut, but was very annoyed at the political rantings. That's why I like it here and haven't looked over there for years.

Some very few times politics rears it's ugly head here. Some people can't help themselves, apparently. It is usually quickly squelched. It's not at all relevant to bonsai until a fascist regime comes to confiscate our trees or pruners, and were safe for now.

If anyone wants a political discussion, PM me and I can point to some boards that are very active.

I hear you, but that stuff has been reduced considerably. The old "karaoke bar" where people spewed all their hate, is gone. There are still some political threads in the "tea house" but not as bad as it used to be.

For the most part, the political stuff stays out of the rest of the forum. I'd prefer if it was eliminated completely, but that's not going to happen.

coh wrote:I hear you, but that stuff has been reduced considerably. The old "karaoke bar" where people spewed all their hate, is gone. There are still some political threads in the "tea house" but not as bad as it used to be.

For the most part, the political stuff stays out of the rest of the forum. I'd prefer if it was eliminated completely, but that's not going to happen.

Still and again: You don't have to read it, watch it or participate in it. Basically what you are saying is that you don't have the strength to govern yourselves. It's the same old people that don't complain about a porn video occurring where it does not belong until it's over and they have watched it. Do you realize how dumb that sounds, or hypocritical? No one at Bnut or here or anywhere else that I know of forces you to look at those threads or anything else.

Hmm, one wonders if we all have favourite trees and they have been seen publicly, so why show again and again .....................

The arguments, might just be our natural personalities clashing.

The internet forces one to interact with a lot of stuff you can ignore in reality.

I for example, have in the last few months been watching thin of trunk, ladder trees, with pads. I don't find that type of design very
attractive. I try not to offend and will not be - ever - re-visiting those collections.
So I can keep my big mouth shut.
Frankly, the viewings made me very glad, I grow my trees - privately - and not for public exhibition.

I got into Bonsai because I love trees, I grew up on an oil camp in the forest. I missed the trees.
They allow me to mentally relax.
I love the tending to them.
Laters.
Khaimraj