Is the IBC dying ?

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Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:57 am

You know folks,

IBC goes through dry periods, but after watching how it lost it's Intellectuals, when it went from a written list
to image list, and now with the new features of Fakebook and other upgraded forums. I would say we have
lost most of our Creatives as well.

We had a similar situation on the Art Forums, tons of folk wanting free information, and on subjects that many
of us had to pay for.
We resolved it by exchanging telephone numbers and closing the forums or leaving them.

Today I test the waters, by making requests for telephone numbers.
All the trained painters easily shared numbers.
All of the folk on IBC on the written list gladly gave me telephone numbers.
Today, one gets lots of excuses.

I think the Internet is dying as far as what it used to be.
Ebay used to be a great place to get ---- what's in the Attic - now it's a wanabe Amazon.
Amazon started as a wannabe Ebay - amusing

I am down to IBC and Ausbonsai and had my e-mail service since 1997 or so, killed, by my local provider.
I am extremely grateful, I studied in Italy, and did my hobbies in reality, before the
Internet.

Anyhow, is there a logical way to at least get back the Creatives?

Back to reality.
Khaimraj

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Huh...No Way

Post  Bolero on Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:15 pm

I think there is plenty of creative Bonsai gardening going on here at IBC, it is sad that it doesn't live up to your standards ...Be what they may.
Regards posters being intellectual, please give me a break....Bonsai is Art mixed in with Gardening, not discussing the interplay of Non Bonsai various Subject matter...We have Arthur Joura and Walter Pall always discussing Traditional Bonsai vs Non Traditional vs American, vs European vs Japanese vs whatever.....and many, many others...
Anyway good to know you have an opinion, where is your Bonsai picture ???
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:44 pm

um... sorry bolero, but we no longer have arthur or walter entertaining us...
neither walter nor arthur has posted in quite some time and i have a feeling that we may not be seeing them around...

i believe that all that they wanted to discuss has been discussed and anything further would be redundant
(although i do wish arthur would continue posting the goings on at the arboretum)

in a way, khai is correct...
i have only been around here for 5-6 years, but i too have seen the slow disappearance of members that i would very much like to have seen hang around more...
on the other hand, along with the good, went some of the bad (and perhaps the 2 are connected)

so we have what we have and we do not have what we had...

having said that, i have noticed some new members that are bringing some very good things to the forum...

so, while we may have lost some of the "professional" bonsainistas, the IBC is still a good hub for those who wish to participate.

(btw - you and i have directly interacted, but i do not know your name... perhaps i missed it somewhere or have forgotten ???)

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Idenity...

Post  Bolero on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Hi Kevin, I'm also known as Chuck...Bolero is an old USAF Call sign I used.

I also do Bonsai Nut quite a bit.

Being an exhibitionist I like to show off my Bonsai Gardening and receive Commentary, Critique and Applause (Rarely).

I appreciate Critiques from the Master's as well as the almost Master's like yourself...

I just thought I would take a Jab at Khaimraj for his Intellectual Remarks...

You are one of my Favs. because you are always interesting and informative....
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Marty Weiser on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:35 pm

I agree that this version of the IBC is not seeing as many posts as it did even a few years ago. However, even at the peak this forum saw a fraction of the posts when the IBC was text based. I remember the rather animated discussions that went on regarding that transition and how it would lead to the demise of the IBC. However, we survived, thrived, and broadened the reach. Perhaps we are preparing for yet another transition. I think it would be the third major one I have seen - usenet, to listserve, to a forum.

One aspect of these transitions is that that material is better archived and more easily searched. I remember carefully saving posts since I thought they would be worth rereading in the future. As a result of the difficulty in searching for the information on the listserve some of the topics were discussed multiple times per year for several years. Now I can just do a search of the forum or the broader internet to find the information. Perhaps that is leading to a decrease in forum traffic - why discuss it again when I can just look it up.

I agree that we are seeing some posts from folks who are seeking to learn enough to create what they see as a way to make a quick buck. I also see that we get new folks who are just learning about bonsai and want to learn enough determine if it is something they want to pursue. As we all know bonsai is either a long term or expensive commitment if you want to have much more than sticks in pots (it can be both).

Another aspect is that the internet (including the IBC) has become less civil and that discourages some people. Yes there were acrimonious things said on the listserve (and I was responsible for some of them), but it was a smaller, tighter community so people tended to self censor and agree to disagree.

Finally, I hope that Khaimraj does not take offense at this, but as some of my students would say "talking on the telephone, how quaint".

Marty (IBC member since about 1983 and still learning)


Last edited by Marty Weiser on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar correction)

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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  M. Frary on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:57 pm

What else do you need when you have me?

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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:34 pm

M. Frary wrote:   What else do you need when you have me?




and chuck - nice to meetcha...
and i am a looong way from deserving those sort of accolades Embarassed
but i will keep on keepin on until i earn em Wink

still - thanks for the kind words

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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:51 pm

Bolero,
no offense taken.

Glad to see you guys are still alive.

Marty, I turned posts into notes and a good thing I did so. My first laptop took every e-mail when it died.
I would have lost a fortune in technical and philosophical art notes.

On our side, having a land line is a sign of wealth and a cellphone poverty. Plus, to play the game you have
to call, since those with the fancy dancy phones / tablet have no money Very Happy

Bolero,
as I stated some time before I removed my earlier images, because somehow I was on Google's results and I
didn't like that. This used to be a private list. With the last forum only for members' eyes.
Now changed.
So I place images at a much reduced level.

This by the way is the second IBC viewing image Forum list, I think the first was hacked, and images were lost.

Well before I disappear, to run from the Christmas ==== I got a gift bonsai - help it's dead - our once a year festival,
I will try and help/chat.

A person can fake out on an e-mail ---------- not so a telephone ------- gotta think on the feet to respond.
Laters
Khaimraj









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I for one: Security...

Post  Vlad on Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:34 pm

I have learned a lot from this forum.  Making my first post here - it was a great feeling: Boy, I am an equal member of this great community.    Sharing the pics of my trees it was a great experience.
On the other hand it was also a kind of advertisement of your trees you may not necessarily want.

I used to have a lot of fun developing my blog.  For the security reason it will disappear by the end of this year.  

I can see the same problems on the forum in the country I live.  It has changed to a social welfareclub where users most of the time just send a congratulation for birthdays.


Last edited by Vlad on Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:45 pm

My take on the situation is that IBC started dying when the so called moderators started intruding themselves into every aspect of the site to the extent that having any kind of vigorous and heated discussion become impossible----IMHO. There were incidents where you were admonised about posting about certain subjects.
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:55 pm

Vance,

IBC has always been a gentle folk's forum.
Frankly, I have never seen any real reason to argue.

Take my Pine Topic - I offered to have everyone laugh at me.
Then someone showed up to start an argument.
Boy, was that silly.

I have no problems admitting I don't know something.

For me this is a hobby.
Ever since back in the early 1980's in the Florence British Consulates library, where I read how the ancient Chinese Scholars used
Tree Penjing [ equivalent of Bonsai ] as a way to relax the mind and help stimulate ideas, like the scholar stone,
or the tea / wine.
I have never bothered with competitions.

Especially since Bonsai cannot hold the finished Design for more than a few months, and I realised you would need
holograms and it took 3 to 5 years to get to that level of Design.
Then the tree had to rest
.
Guess what, I started research on the Hologram part some weeks ago.

So I will be able to show my work more like oil paintings.

What one does get tired of is hidden agendas -------- like the soul who clocked up thousands of responses, only to remove
them, when the objective was achieved ------ harvesting clientele or the ones who come here to learn how to do sales.
Or the Newbies who never read the archives first, and then ask questions if they need to.

I think the moderators do a great job here.
Same goes for Ausbonsai.

Why argue, discuss yes.

You know Fiona and I knocked heads - why - because in my world, ladies don't mention certain things in public.
We would be, what one would call - Victorian - in our level of politeness.
I was told this in Philadelphia quite a few times, when I attended P.A.F.A.
Trinidad was always 20 to 30 years behind the US [ before the Internet Very Happy ]
Fiona, even remarked that I sounded like her mum.

BUT her work was always Admirable.

I only detach from IBC when the Christmas Giftee War cry is sounded. Very Happy
I am saying this twice just in case some have never been through it.

I hope the IBC pulls out of this Funk and I can continue how to do Bonsai on the cheap. Embarassed
Laters.
Khaimraj













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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  BobbyLane on Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:16 pm

Ive also learnt so much from this forum and have a load of old and interesting, informative threads in my favs/bookmarked....i know they will never be updated, as folks move on, but i can always refer when need be. for me, the main function of a bonsai forum is to talk about bonsai trees and post images of trees you work on for critique, opinions, advice etc etc. i see that a new thread can get easily 200, 300, 400+ views and not a single murmur from anyone. quite simple, the interest just isnt there, for whatever reason. i just use it to research old threads now. be nice if it could perk up, but seems folks are more than happy to lurk and not get involved.
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Richard S on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:12 pm

Well, I feel suitably chastised now Embarassed

It seems that I have unintentionally become one of those "lurkers" that Bobby L talks about.

I do check in from time to time to see what's going on but realise that I haven't posted in ages. Then again, if there isn't much traffic on the forum there isn't much to comment on so it becomes a kind of viscous circle.

Most of the people doing the most interesting work do seem to prefer blogs these days. Maybe that's precisely because they are less interactive than a forum? A Walter Pall or Arthur Jura type character can stimulate a huge amount of interest in a forum but as soon as they express a challenging opinion they also stimulate a degree of hostility and hysteria which must inevitably become wearing after a while.  

It's a shame though because this forum has been a great inspiration to me personally and I'm sure for many others also.

Still, there's only one way to stop the decline and that's for those who want to keep the flag flying to keep posting interesting opinions, info and trees!

Good luck and for my part I'll try to lurk less and post more in the future (and congratulations Khaimraj, this thread succeeded in smoking me out of retirement anyway).

Cheers

Richard
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:30 am

Richard,
thanks for replying.

You know I have seen quite a few forums grow from seed to mighty oak to dead oak.

You have the [1] builders, then the [2] maintainers, and finally the [3] finishers.

Bonsai only has so much in Horticulture and Design. So much for soils - which can be - freely draining and moisture retentive.
The ball bearing principle and the use of organic in the mix or the use of an organic oil cake meal in an inorganic mix.
Takes about 3 to 5 years to master with watering and the use of 300 or so victims..

Using trees from out of your zone and under different humidity, sun light ............ will raise the level of difficulty.
Take the Horticultural part longer to master.

Design - requires some Art training / or Sculpture if you prefer.

But then when you have a FAQ section or Archive, it negates the need to keep responding.

With us it came down to this ------------- seedling ---- tile ---- colander for a few months - then ground grow for 1 to 3 years.
We can also get the first 6 branches in the three years.
Removal and rest in the colander for a few months to restore the feeder roots.
Year 4 oversized Bonsai pot [ often plastic or mica ] for 2 more years or less.

Bonsai type shape in around 5 years ---------- 8 to 10 years to age.

Tile, if the trees shows surface roots [ Tamarinds don't and their change comes from the lowest point that touches the soil.]

I have explained that there is a book by - Masakuni with a Murata -------- where he explains the use of the tools and especially
the concave pruner being used for only cutting toothpick thick / matchstick thick twigs.
No more breaking them and the Chinese concave pruners at around 8 to 12 US $ on Amazon become usable.

Now if you know the above and there are archives, Bonsai groups become Philosophical discussions.

At least that is how we teach it.

We even have a local ficus - willow leaf type - Ficus p. that can trunk thicken in a 1" [ 2.5 cm ] deep pot and in 3 years
you have a tree ready for ramification.

So perhaps, there isn't anything else to discuss and what happened with the Art forums is happening here.
We became friends and just met to chat?
I don't sell or charge to teach Bonsai and thus it remains a hobby.
Laters.
Khaimraj

* I started reading more deeply on soils and soil organisms / bugs / worms, fascinating to understanding how your
tree does in soil, but you don't have to do this to grow a tree.
















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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  AlainK on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:07 pm

I don't think IBC is dying.

Like in many social places, people come and go, and there's nothing worse than to rely on "masters" to show you the way : a forum is a place where people can share their experience, not the "Vatican of bonsai" where one can buy truth(s).

Actually, I think people can be put off by reading posts by "masters", willy-nilly imposing a view of what a bonsai, or a tree, should be. I have examples of some who led a flock to a place where they abandoned them because apparently they were not up to the grade, or just because it was a fad they lured people into scratch

I think that what we want here is tips and tricks on how to cultivate trees, not really how they should look like. Of course, we also want others to appreciate our work, but we're here to learn from others', aren't we?

So let's be modest, humble, and carry on.
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  my nellie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:15 pm

Hello there!
Nice to meet you all!
Just like the old good times!  Very Happy

Well, lately I was often asking myself the same question that Khaimraj asked. And every now and then I would log in to IBC mostly to read new threads and then I had a feeling of satisfaction reading posts of Kevin or Alain or Khaimraj or any other long-standing members. I do not participate as often as I did due to personal/family serious issues, but I do pay a visit every now and then.
1) I would agree with Alain that IBC is not dying but on the other hand I cannot pass by the fact that a great deal of old (and active) members are gathered around FB these days. Facebook is the new (...no more) trend which has has grown and multiply in a parasitic way.
2) I disagree with Mr. Wood regarding moderation on IBC. Moderators and Fiona namely (who Khaimraj has referred to) they are doing a great job. I think that Mr. Wood might has in mind Bnut forum and the discussions there (mainly in the Teahouse forum), which some times are going out of control and nobility terms. I rarely pay them a visit and I feel that Bnut being under no moderation sometimes becomes kind of football stage.
3) Just like Richard, IBC has been a great inspiration for me, too. And I do thank everyone and all for the help/suggestion/advice I have been given.
4) I do agree that
AlainK wrote:what we want here is tips and tricks on how to cultivate trees
but if
Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Bonsai groups become Philosophical discussions
it's perfectly okay with me. In fact I can see more meaning in this than just tips.

I hope IBC/we will go on with the same civilized standard helping/teaching novices and inspiring/entertaining all of us.
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:09 am

Warm hello Alexandria,

my response will be kinda weird.

See my previous e-mail about how we grow to get to the last stage rapidly.

I would ask how do trees in say zone 5 or 4 get to be 30 or 40 feet tall [ say 10 m ] and how long?

My brother-in-law and I have been bouncing that idea around on other forums. The response is generally
negative - why - because most folk don't like to experiment - all they want is tips and one liners.
So how does a 1 year sapling survive winter in zone 4 or 5 ?

Something is missing as winter goes.

Secondly, there are many folk growing trees not native to their zones, and as such have more problems
with soil and outdoor ambiance.
More easy tips?

The idea is to experiment and in doing that share, so others won't have to go through that and can spend
more time experimenting elsewhere.

The older heads get tired of repeating the same information and fade away.

On my side, no one taught the 1 to 6 rule for trunk to height and now we have numerous yards of tall ladder
trees, since the back branch part was also forgotten.
I am not going to be the one that says -------- chop em down and start over.
But why ?
Because they don't read.
[ not mention pot costs ]

I also keep general folk out of my yard because of what Kevin noted in his - Stolen trees article.
Someone just checked out the premises and came back for freebies.
As I enter year 37 / 38 with trees at 35/36, I won't handle such thievery well.
We had a run on orchids some years ago, the Orchid Society did too good a job.

Anyhow, I have offered a simple way to get Bonsai trees rapidly.
I would imagine the spring burst of the colder areas, would be what is needed to be studied to
use.

Now let us see how many take the time to try.

We can also have the colander within a colander debate or colander in the open ground debate Very Happy :lol

From where I stand Bonsai no longer takes years, just be prepared for 5 years of experimenting and
results will follow.
But you need close to 300 efforts.
It's like how we were taught to draw - 3 hrs daily Monday to Friday and you are expected to draw at
home as well, with your anatomy book out for more than 3 hrs daily.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj










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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  kevin stoeveken on Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:55 pm

Vance Wood wrote: the so called moderators

HEY !!

WHO YOU CALLING "SO CALLED" ???
WHY, I OUGHTTA... Razz Razz Razz

argumentative discussions are fine until people get truly riled up because then things can get ugly...
and i believe we are all in this for the beauty and any ugliness should be reserved for intentional design options. Wink

ironically enough, a thread about the IBC dying shows the IBC is not necessarily dying...

thanks khai !

and to some of you who popped in for this, we miss you (richard, alexandra etc),
but we understand sometimes "life" gets in the way.

i have also written to arthur to express the same.

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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Kev Bailey on Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:51 pm

Yes we do go through periods of interest and some brilliant and inspired contributions help to liven things up occasionally. Then there are times when everything slows down a little. I don't think that is signalling the demise of the IBC though.

My own interest in bonsai fluctuates according to how much time I can give it. I had much more free time when I was in full time work, now I am semi-retired and find that I have much more to do! Polar expeditions, grandchildren, house maintenance and the garden will keep me going and I'll be lucky if I can fit any bonsai in, but I'll try.

One day I may get around to the overhaul of this site that I've long been thinking about. All that data that was hacked on our last incarnation is still hanging around, unindexed, on hard drives awaiting a tech genius!
I am sure that while there are some good folk willing to step up to the plate and help with the smooth running, as our moderators do, we will carry on.

If there are areas where we need to improve, then our members need to tell us and then help us implement those changes.


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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  kevin stoeveken on Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:36 pm

kev - one great change has been the ease of the new picture uploading functions...

its nice being able to do a bunch, all in one fell swoop !

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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:52 pm

My requests would be, Oh Administrator [ K kowtows ],

is for some privacy - as it was before with the last forum and if possible on our images.
I am not comfortable being a Google spectacle.

Kevin, in my early 50's I am about to drop my trees to 50 or 40 and promise to stop doing cuttings.
Though I will continue to look at new tree types.
I have enough.

Laters.
Khaimraj

*As .to Bonsai and exercise -------- close to 1000 lbs of water moved daily, hand watering 1.5 gallon plastic can
and 5 miles daily walked up a hill side.
Keeps me very fit.

For old age I have several 1 gallon cans ready to go. Laughing Laughing Laughing



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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:21 pm

That is a valid request Khaimraj but technically I am unsure how to achieve it. I'll try a little homework.

I am in my early 60's and still do seeds, cuttings and layers. Propagation is all part of the joy of being a plantaholic, for me.

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Facebook

Post  abedini on Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:56 pm

Hi to all

Why not to create the IBC Facebook page. I think we can have the forum and a facebook page.
Best regards Alejandro
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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  John Quinn on Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:54 pm

There already is one with 7485 members... Cool

https://www.facebook.com/groups/195463189147/

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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:01 pm

dang... i was hoping that the IBC would be fakebookless Evil or Very Mad

oh well... Razz

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Re: Is the IBC dying ?

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