Collector and researcher of Ying stone

中国的石头有一个欣赏点，就是就石头看成大自然的缩影，这个石头最奇怪的地方是石头的中间有洞穴，而且洞穴下面还有独特的纹！

China's appreciation of the stones have a point, that is, on the stone as a microcosm of nature, the stone is most amazing is the middle of a rock cave, and cave the following patterns are unique!

上帝创造的石头，所展现的迷人舞姿，让人类感憾是多么的神奇呀！

God created the rock, the charming dance show, so that the human sense of how magical regret it!

The last stone above looks carved by man??

No that is water worn limestone Billy. I see stuff "like" this in rivers here quite regularly. Unfortunately it is never in just the right beautiful shape as these are.

Kevin:

I am willing to bet the farm that the stone is "manufactured."
I am also willing to wager that the next step is a sales pitch.

Peter Aradi

PS. Sorry for the posting Chris!

Hi Deng... Thanks for contributing to understanding of fine Chinese stones. For stones seen as a microcosm of nature, you share the value of a rock cave among “most amazing” features.

You build upon repeated expression in Chinese literature and art of seeking untrammeled & boundless paradise inside of things. Among other Chinese allusions, a cave reflects or is mirrored by:
- a remote mountain entrance to another world exactly representing the world outside;
- the entrance to a heavenly land of immortals;
- entrance to the timeless valley of Tao Yuanming’s “Peach Blossom Spring,”
- entrance/view for a cultivated scholar through a circular ("moon") gate or window framing a garden or landscape scene.
- the neck & entrance of a double-gourd, through which a wandering Daoist sage might pass magically and imaginatively to reside in another universe or make his temporary home.

I am very appreciative of your effort, Deng. I can see that you rely heavily on automated translation to share with us in English. I can only imagine the difficulty of reading in English through automated translation. As with stones, the vocabulary of English is not particularly precise, and grammar is even less revealing than the words to express feeling. The nuances which allow pathos and humor, rage and love, fear and trust et al. to be felt are often outside the words themselves. If we exchanged treasured pets, their language for us would be authentic and extended through the wag of a tail or an expressive look, and so it is with our stones.

What is it that our stones share without speaking or wagging?. What do we share of appreciation that puts us in communion with Chinese scholar collectors of a distant past... or is there anything that does?

Stones do not affect an enthusiast because of scoring across a list of attributes. Still, common guidance for traditional scholars rocks include:
- shou-zhou-lou-tou (attributes of Taihu garden stones),
- xing-zhi-se (“shape, material. color”),
- coalescing of heaven-earth energy into form through landscapes/mountains compressed further into rocks and
- assembling the beauty of a thousand cliffs in a fist-sized stone.

In Worlds Within Worlds (p. 109 f.), Richard Rosenblum notes that in periods earlier than the present, Chinese collectors were less concerned with natural contour & surface being represented by only nature’s action. If man’s imagination could improve upon the feeling for nature, it was not only acceptable but preferred. Today, naturalness is felt authenticated more by lack of manipulation than by inventiveness & craft skill which covers its tracks. The traditional approach seems at least as valid for stones in antique-style as it matches the practice of past collectors.

A problem for collectors other than in China is lack of skill in craft. Western craftsmen seldom (if ever) compare to the better Chinese craftsmen in mounting, manipulating contours/textures & finishing antique-style Chinese stones. Finishing stones to appear natural indefinitely is particularly impressive.
---------------

GOOGLE TRANSLATE (Traditional Chinese)
您好鄧小平...感謝有助於了解中華優秀石頭。的石塊被看作一個縮影性質，您共享的價值石窟中“最令人驚訝”的特點。

您的基礎上反复表達的華文文學和藝術的追求untrammeled ＆無限天堂裡的東西。在其他中國典故，一個洞穴反映或反映：
-偏遠山區進入另一個世界到底代表以外的世界;
-入口的天堂土地的神仙;
-進入永恆的山谷陶淵明的“桃花源”
-入口/期為培養學者通過通函（ “月亮” ）門或窗口制定了花園或景觀現場。
-頸部及入口雙葫蘆，通過這些流浪道家聖人可能通過神奇和富有想像力居住在另一個宇宙，或讓他暫時回家。

我非常感謝您的努力，鄧小平。我可以看到您倚重自動化翻譯與我們分享英語。我只能想像的困難，閱讀英語通過自動翻譯。由於石塊，詞彙的英語不是特別精確，和語法甚至更少的話揭示比表示的感覺。的細微差別，使感傷和幽默，憤怒和愛，恐懼和信任等。 [一]感覺到[ /一]往往以外的話本身。如果我們交換了寶貴的寵物，他們的語言對我們來說將是真實的，並延長通過搖了尾巴或表達期望，所以我們的石頭。

它是什麼，我們的石頭份額不說話或搖搖？ 。我們如何份額讚賞，使我們在與中國學者收藏家的一個遙遠的過去...或者是還有什麼呢？

滾石不影響愛好者，因為跨越得分的清單屬性。儘管如此，共同指導傳統學者岩石包括：
- [一]守週樓頭[ /一] （屬性太湖花園石） ，
- [一]杏芝申請[ /一] （ “形狀，材料。顏色” ） ，
-凝聚了天地能量形式通過景觀/山區進一步壓縮到岩石和
-組裝的美麗一千懸崖在一個拳頭大小的石頭。

在[一]世界在世界[ /一] （第109頁荷蘭盾） ，理查德羅森布魯姆指出，在時間早於當前，中國收藏家都不太關心的自然輪廓線和面所代表的不僅性質的行動。如果人類的想像力可以提高對自然的感覺，它不僅是可以接受的，但首選。今天，自然更是感到認證缺乏操縱，而不是發明和工藝技巧包括軌道。傳統的做法似乎至少是有效的，石頭在古典式的，因為它符合以往的作法，收藏家。

收藏家的問題以外的其他中國是缺乏技能工藝。西方工匠很少（如果有的話）進行比較，以更好地在中國工匠安裝，操縱輪廓/紋理和整理古典式的中國石頭。整理石頭無限期出現自然是特別令人印象深刻。

收集在美國弗吉尼亞州：
- 50磅石...
[ IMG公司] https://i.servimg.com/u/f64/13/44/48/20/vawax510.jpg [ / IMG公司]

- 3.8英寸（略低於10厘米）高石...
[ IMG公司] https://i.servimg.com/u/f64/13/44/48/20/ywaxfl10.jpg [ / IMG公司]

Collected in Virginia USA:
- 50 pound stone...


- 3.8 inch (slightly under 10 cm) high stone...

Thanks for your repies. I will explain that our Chinese people love rock art has been passed more than a thousand years of history, we do not like the transformation of man-made stone shape, all through the way we have always been as natural as the standard and respect the will of God!

Mr Billy and Mr Paradi, I think if you carefully read my previous place of origin in the mountains photographs taken, you would not think of!Mr Kevin is an expert in this area, the nature of these stones is limestone, which is the role of the formation of the impact of millions of years of rain, wind, sunlight exposure,carbohydrates!

If you Paradi me now, I think I will win you a dollar, huh, huh!


Thanks for your reply!
First I would love to tell you that it have been long history for Chinese took interested in rock art . and we prefer the rock which are made of nature than those been man-made .We take the nature as standard and respect for god’s will!

My dear Billy and Paradi, I am assure that you won’t doubt after you view the rocks’ photo where I took at the place of origin showed at previous page .
Mr Kevin must a connoisseur of the rocks. These rocks’ essence is the limestone, been million years’ sunburn and windburn then resulting from carbohydrate.

I will gain one dollar from Paradi if you beside me right now!


謝謝三位閣下的回復，我先說明一下我們中國人對石頭藝術的愛好已經傳承了一千多年的歷史，而且一向以來我們都不喜歡人為的改造石頭的外形，我們從來都是視天然為標準，尊重上帝的意志！

尊敬的Billy閣下和Paradi閣下，我想你們如果認真看了我上一頁在山上原產地所拍的照片，你們就不會這樣認為了！還是Kevin閣下是這方面的行家，這些石頭的本質是石灰岩，它們是由千百萬年的雨水衝擊、風吹、日光暴曬、碳水化合物作為生成的！
如果Paradi閣下現在在我身邊，我想我會贏得您的一美金的，呵呵！

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.

Your photo is YELLOW WAX ROCKS (Huanglashi), we are also very popular in China, Harvard University Art Museums in the research monograph "Worlds Within Worids; The Richard Rosenbium Col-iection of Chinese Scholars' Rocks" are summarized below:


YELLOW WAX ROCKS (Huanglashi) :Obtained from river-beds in Guangdong and Guangxi provinces, yellow wax rocks were first collected for studio display during the Qing dynasty, probabiy in the seventeenth or eighteenth century, Composed of golden silica, most likely in the form of quartz, they are hard, dense, and homogeneous. The majority of yellow wax rocks are opaque, though a few are slightly translucent. Appreciated for their golden caramel color, such rocks often have intricately textured surfaces; rare examples boast perforations.
Yellow wax rocks are often mistaken af first for golden Shoushan soapstones. Because they are composed of silica yel-low wax rocks are much harder than soapstone and thus do not yield to the carver’s knife, so the literati did not use them for seals. Like jade, yellow wax rocks are harder than steel and were shaped not by chiseling but by grinding their surfaces with corundum, quartz sand, crushed gamets, or other hard, fine-grained abrasives.
The popularty of yellow jade during the Yuan and Ming dy-nasties had paved the way for acceptance of brightly colored stones into scholarly circles – a world previously retricted to sober shades of black, white, and gray, Once the colorful Qing tian, Shoushan, and Changhua soapstones had become the preferred materiais for personal seals in the Ming, they quickly found popu-larity as scholars’ rocks during the Qing. The golden Shoushan stones doubtless lent their status as studio rocks to yellow wax stones, which are visually similar; in fact, yellow wax rocks may well have come into their own only after having served as substi-tutes for the very expensive Shones, in the same man-ner that Ying rocks had served as substitutes for Lingbi in the early ming.


您的照片中的是YELLOW WAX ROCKS (Huanglashi)，在我们中国也很流行，在Harvard University Art Museums的研究專著《Worlds Within Worids; The Richard Rosenbium Col-iection of Chinese Scholars’ Rocks》摘錄如下：


黄腊石，产于广东和广西境内的河床，大约在十七、十八世纪首次作为文房石收藏。材质为金黄硅质，很可能是石英石。黄腊石材质坚硬均匀，大多数呈不透明状，少数为半透明。黄腊石因色泽如阿胶和表面玉脂细腻而深受文人喜爱。人们常常将黄腊石误看成寿山石。前者主要成份是硅质，且硬度远高于后者，因些文人不采用黄蜡石刻制印章。如同玉石，黄腊石硬度高于钢，不是雕琢成形，而是采用金刚砂、石英砂等研磨成形。
黄色玉石在元代和明代的盛行为色彩斑斓的赏石成为文人学士的藏石作了必要的铺垫。文人们原先只欣赏黑、白、灰等素色调的石头。一旦青田、寿山和昌化等印石成为明代首推的印章石，便很快在清代成为风靡一时的文人石。

Dear Mr. Deng:

My name is actually Peter Aradi. I have have visited China several times and have a working knowledge of the Chinese stone markets.
My bet is still applicable.

Mr. Deng:

Two more images:

My wife and I at the Duo Lun Exhibit in Shanghai.
Cheers.

Peter

Mr. Deng:

I have turned to the book you have quoted, "World Within Worlds", and tried to find a passage that was in the back of my mind.
I found it on page 127 and will quote it for you:
"In addition to their natural features, the rocks examined in this study also show signs of artificial enhancements to their shapes. Marks resulting from V-shaped carving tools, fine-tipped burins, and drills were noted on several rocks, and many of their overall forms were suspected of being sculpted. However, clearly identifying where nature ended and human intervention began was not always possible. The level of craftmanship was extremely high, and any tooling was meant to be undetectable."

It is interesting to note that Mr. Rosenblum assembled his collection with expert assistance and paid high prices. If the most famous collector in the Western world can be fooled, what chance a poor one like myself has?

In addition I would like to mention that we have visited stone markets in China on three occasions with experts; first with a Chinese born American stone dealer, the second time with a Chinese stone collector and dealer who had a stone shop in Tokyo at the time, and several years later with a famous award winning Chinese stone collector. On all three occasions they have pointed out to my wife and I numerous stones with modifications and in some cases what techniques were used to disguise human intervention. Their estimate of the percentage mislabeled and/or modified stones ranged from 50 to 90%.

I am not a native speaker of English and well aware of translation problems. I suggest that you have a capable English translator help you with some of our statements over and above the easly misunderstandable machine translator.

Sincerely yours,

Peter Aradi

PS. Chris: In spite of my previous promise to stay out of the forum, I reserve the right to enter any discussion that I deem to present viewing stone culture in a mythical and unrealistic form.
If this is against forum policies, feel free to delete the posting.

I think that you may have misunderstood my comment Mr Deng. Just to set the record straight, I do not claim to be an expert in this area, only that I know water worn limestone when I see it. I was supporting you!

I have been an amateur geologist for 50 years and a geography teacher with a special interest in physical geography for 30 years. I also did a lot of caving/speleothunking - mostly in the limestone caves of Yorkshire, when I was younger.

This is the sort of water worn limestone I find very close to home. Not a patch on shapes that you can find, but water worn limestone nonetheless.

Mr. Deng seems sincere in his sharing. I find his postings interesting.

Mark

Thank you Sir, I am relatively busy day tomorrow to give you a detailed reply!


謝謝各位先生，我這兩天比較忙碌，明天再給各位詳細回复！

Dear Mr Peter Aradi
I am glad that you have been to China several times, I believe you have been my rock-depth understanding of our ancient China, we in fact does not exclude the manufacture of stone, but also there were many works of art to imitate natural stone However, natural stone, for us, will always be the most valuable! China hopes the next time you can shop to my face-to-face identification, this should be my honor!

Dear Mr Kev Bailey
Thank you for your support, I would like a better understanding of your scholars limestone, weathering to know the charm of a gentle breeze blowing to ask thousands of years stones, stone shape will dance with the wind and the!

Dear Mr Mark
Thank you for your interest!

I would also like to become friends with you, we work together for our common interest and discussion, is a matter of how wonderful you!

There are three stone-generated forms, weathering, soil erosion, fresh water flows!


Dear Mr Peter Aradi
我很高興您已來過幾次中國，相信您對我國的石頭已有深入的瞭解，在我們中國古代，我們其實也並不排斥製造的石頭，而且還出現過不少模仿天然石頭的藝術品，但天然的石頭，對於我們來說，永遠都是最珍貴的！希望您下次到中國，能到我的商店當面鑒別，這應該是我的榮幸！

Dear Mr Kev Bailey
謝謝您的支持，我想您的一個比較瞭解石灰岩的學者，知道風化的魅力，微風將石頭吹撫千萬年，石頭的形狀也會隨著風吹而起舞的！

Dear Mr Mark
謝謝您的關注！

我也希望能和你們成為朋友，我們一起為我們的共同愛好而討論，是一件多麼美妙的事情呀！

石頭有三種生成的形式，風化、泥土的蝕食、水的流動！

Dear Mr Deng,

in your last reply you lost two factors very important, the impact of bacteria in all your categories and
impact of microorganisms which built the limestones in all world around.

marco

paradi wrote:Kevin:
I am willing to bet the farm that the stone is "manufactured."
I am also willing to wager that the next step is a sales pitch.
Peter Aradi
PS. Sorry for the posting Chris!

the Ying stones of Deng presented here are basically natural-shaped, apart from a few of them(erect long ones) that are cut at the bottom.
I feel very sorry that Peter's visits of Chinese stone market gave him a poor impression.

In fact, any serious Chinese stone collector particularly cares about if the stone is natural of not. And they wont accept a shape-stone if the shape is manufactured by man. for some of the stone types, such as Jiulongbi stone (from Hua'an, Fujian Province)and Ying Stone, the stones that are cut at the bottom are generally accepted.

But the condition is quite different in ancient times. As far as I know, many ancient shape-stones (like Ying stone and Lingbi stone) have man-made holes in it

Dear Mr. Wen:

Thank you for your posting. It does clarify the issue.
Not all stones are God made and not all stones are man made. There is a great mixture in any market and it is good to be aware of this fact.
My experience at Chinese markets were very positive; I had to learn how to distinguish types of stones and their quality.
I am also sure that I have made errors in judgement and have purchased "manufactured" stones.
I have five Jiulongbi stones, a very large one that is cut at the bottom and four smaller ones that are natural.
I have three Ying stones, all are natural.
However, I must mention that I have never seen a natural Ying stone with the artistically detailed veins that was illustrated by Mr. Deng.
On that specific stone I remain skeptical.

Thank you again for your posting.

Peter Aradi

Dear Mr Paradi
現在，我的老師Wen已經向您解釋有關石灰岩地貌所生成的有關特徵，我現在必須向您和大家介紹一下我們中國一處非常著名的景觀雲南Stone Forest，它的地貌在生成Ying Rocks(Yingshi)的地貌有許多的相似的特徵，完全是天然，讓大家再次領略上帝的魅力！

Dear Mr Paradi
Now, my teacher, Wen has been to explain the limestone topography that you generated on the characteristics, I must now introduce to you and one of our most famous Chinese landscape in Yunnan Stone Forest, it generated landscape Ying Rocks (Yingshi) the landscape there are many similar features, is completely natural, so we once again appreciate the charm of God!


The Stone Forest lies about 80 miles to the southeast of Kunming. A geological phenomenon, the Stone Forest was a vast expanse of sea during the Paleozoic era——some 270 million years ago. Later, the movement of tectonic plates altered the earth's crust, causing the sea to recede and its limestone bottom to appear, thereby forming land. Due to the constant seeping of rain through the cracks in the limestone, some of the stone formation dissolved and the fissures broadened, producing a group of great sculptures of different shapes, all molded by nature.
　　In the midst of the forest, there is a huge rock screen on which two words——Stone Forest——are engraved in official script (in a calligraphic style typical of the Han Dynasty, 206 B.C.-220 A.D.). Among the scenic sights is the "Sword Peak Pond" with jadeite-colored water so clear that one can see the bottom of the pond. Other astonishing sights include "Figure of Ashima," "Shi Ba Xiang Song" (its name originating in the Chinese love story, "Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai"), and "Lotus Peak."

furuya wrote:Dear Mr Deng,

in your last reply you lost two factors very important, the impact of bacteria in all your categories and
impact of microorganisms which built the limestones in all world around.

marco

Dear Mr furuya

You say these two factors is very important that I have overlooked, I think these two factors on the impact of limestone may be relatively small!

您說的這兩個因素很重要，是我所忽略的，我想這兩個因素對石灰岩的影響可能比較小！

Sorry Mr Deng but you have misunderstood again. Marco is suggesting that bacteria and microorganisms are responsible for building and then sculpting the limestones. He is absolutely correct in this.

Kev Bailey wrote:Sorry Mr Deng but you have misunderstood again. Marco is suggesting that bacteria and microorganisms are responsible for building and then sculpting the limestones. He is absolutely correct in this.

Dear Mr Kevin
I think I'll have to pay attention to the impact of these two aspects, I have always thought that this is a very small impact, but in the long history, I would like to change their stones will have a positive impact!

我想我以後要注意這兩個方面的影響，我一直認為這是很微小的影響，但在漫長的歷史長河中，我想它們對石頭的改變也會產生積極的作用！

Please enjoy Ying Rocks (Yingshi) of the holes, the formation of these caves is not easy it is very difficult, because they are violent in the air, going through hundreds of millions of years of wind and rain!

請欣賞Ying Rocks(Yingshi)有關的洞穴，這些洞穴形成的難度是非常不容易的，因為它們暴在空氣中，經歷億萬年的風吹雨打！


http://i61.www.servimg.com/u/f61/13/91/20/87/2416.jpg

[img][/img]

Hi Kev. You write,

Marco is suggesting that bacteria and microorganisms are responsible for building and then sculpting the limestones. He is absolutely correct in this.

Like most "absolutely correct" assertions, this one seems a little cock-eyed to me. Ying rock formed as a precipate along walls of aquifers in an underground karst formations. Early collection was in pits dug tens of feet underground. I do not see evidence that this limestone was formed from an ancient (sea)bed built from the remains of microrganisms, if that is suggested. The sculpting is more chemical & physical (e.g, solution weathering & water flow) than biological according to scientific analysis found in Worlds Within Worlds.

Rosenblum seemed to agree with a Chinese visitor to Boston that the color varies from the darker stone at the lower part of aquifer channels/caves to lighter stone at the upper part. The color was not affected by surface bacterial action so much (though bacteria/microrgaisms affects exposed limestone) as by consistency of submersion as the stone formed-- the color is not merely a skin, as that which is prized for suiseki.

Hi Chris,
please read "Microfacies of Carbonate rocks" by ERIK FLUGEL SPRINGER edition: ISBN 3-540-22016-X , library of Congress Control Number:
2004104816 .

To page 390 : (Bioerosion and Boring Organisms) Erik Flugel write:
"Microborers are highly effective in the biological degradation of subaerially exposed carbonate rocks ( e.g. karst)and of limestones used as building stones."

Best regards,

marco