Collector and researcher of Ying stone

Ying stone

I am very happy to be here to know everyone, I come from China's Guangdong Province, I am 29-year-old man. my English is not good. please excuse for my poor English

Hi Deng... Welcome to the IBC stone forum. Thanks for sharing!

Please tell us your thoughts of this stone. Tell us of your research on Ying stones.

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.


Despite the fact that stone appreciation originates in China and dates back to a very ancient period, it was only in the Tang Dynast(618—907A.D.) and Song Dynasty(960—1279A.D.) that stone appreciation really became an independent category of artistic collection and shaped a cultural tradition that has been handed down in a systematic way.

Stone appreciation was widely recognized and advocated in the circles of scholars and officials of the Song Dynasty and later turned into a culture of the nobility, one that was attached to literature (poetry) and art(painting). On the initiative of scholars and officials, stone appreciation began to be recognized as an independent artistic category and the- relevant aesthetic criteria (such as SHOU, ZHOU, LOU, TOU — which respectively mean slenderness in shape, wrinkles in surface texture, channels and indentations, and holes and openness — as summarized by Mi Fu [1051—1107 A.D.], master of painting and calligraphy in the Song Dynasty and the table of stone species appeared (such as Yunlin Stone Table by Du Wan). ln addition, stone collection was listed as one of the iprecious articles of the writing tablei (as in Dongtian Qinglu Collection by Zhao Xihu) and became the subject matter as well as the object of artistic expression of other categories. One might think that stone appreciation in the Song Dynaty, as a cultural phenomenon, was taken to its extremity.

When it comes to traditional Chinese stone appreciation, lots of people are prone to accept the pre-established aesthetics of SHOU, ZHOU, LOU, TOU. lndeed, since the great stone connoisseur, Mi Fu, first put forward the four criteria of judging stones, the fashion of collecting inelegant stones had prevailed in the collection circle during that period. As the aesthetic orientation reflected in SHOU, ZHOU, LOU, TOU goes against the principles of the Formal Aesthetics(for instance, balance, symmetry, rhythm, cadence and even golden section, etc.), they are in essence a pursuit of artistic iinelegancei.

Hi Deng... The contour of each of your stones is very nice. The second stone reminds me of the famous garden stone "Wrinkled Cloud Peak" in Hangzhou.

It appears the surface of each has been recently cleaned. Can you share how and why? What care they will receive that might change the surface?

Please share your thoughts on Ying stone collecting & appreciation.

Scholar rock appreciation extends far beyond the Mi Fu focus of shou, zhao, lou, tou and clumsiness. Pulsing energy & lingering transformative images straddling nature and dream are vigorous in scholar aesthetics.

Sung scholars were no more obsessive than modern enthusiasts... ;-)

Virginia limestone...

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.

Ying Rocks (Yingshi). Named for Yingde, in central Guangdong province, whete the earliest examples of this family originated. Ying rocks come from a variety of sources in Guangdong and Guangxi provinces. Purists attempt to distinguish between “Ying” and “Yingde” stones, reserving the latter term for rocks definitely from Yingde; except for modem rocks of unquestioned provenance, however, the source of any given Ying rock cannot yet be deter-mined with certainty, so the distinction is artificial at best. the term “Ying rock” and “Ying stone” are not meant to designate a specific source.

Ying rocks are of fine-grained limestone, and are typically dark gray in color, although white, black, and light all well attested. Literary sources also mention green and pale bluish green (qing) Ying stones, although such are unknown, or at least unrecognized, today, Due to oxidation or other natural alteration of their surfaces, gray Ying stones sometimes appear brownish gray on first inspection, Like their counterparts from Lingbi, most Ying rocks include deposits of calcite, in the form of both continuous veins and discrete pockets; the exposed calcite ranges from white to buff. Ying rocks are traditionally prized for their intricately tex-tured surfaces, which are often characterized “dimpled” or “bubbled”, At Yingde, rocks were harvested from caves; tradition asserts that the best pieces came from caves filled with water, which imparted to them dark, glossy surfaces.

Traditional writers disagree on the sonorous properties of Ying stones, perhaps because such stones come from a variety of sources and thus lack the homogeneity associated with rocks from Lingbi. Writing in his twelfth-century Yunlin ahipu, Du Wan commented that some Ying stones were slightly resonant, but thirteenth-century author of the Dongting qinglu ji, stated unequivo-cally that Ying stines were resonant.

Although collectors appreciated Ying rocks for their diverse shapes and varied colors in the Song, they came to prefer dark-hued Ying stones in the Ming, viewing them as substitutes for the prized Lingbi, whose supply seemed to be at an end. Having ac-quired a taste for Ying rocks, collectors continued to value them, even after the discovery of new sources from Lingbi in the Qing dynasty. Favored more in the south where they originated, Ying stones never found the nationwide esteem of the Lingbi rocks, perhaps because many collectors continued to see them as sub-stitutes for the latter. Still, in his mid-seventeenth-century Zhangwu zhi [On the things of the world], the Ming author Wen Zhenheng (1585—1645) ranked them second among scholars’ rocks, trailing only those lf Lingbi.

Your photos & text on Ying are awesome, Deng! Thanks for sharing them.

Are you the author of the Ying stone description? How would you wish the article (& yourself) cited in a reference?

In the text Worlds Within Worlds (p.125f), repeated small scallops associated with many Ying stones are noted as "formed by flowing waters along a cave passageway." Your stone outcroppings exhibit similar dimples as well as solution pits formed by the etching of standing water.
.
Are these & similar formations open-to or protected-from stone collecting, today?

reputed Ying Stone-- 70 cm. (27.5") height above the stand...


close-up...


typical Ying Stone-- 56 cm. (22") height above the stand...

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.

Hi Deng... Marrying images is easier than pairing the stones, which stand only a centimeter different in height. Perhaps, the stone in China dances lightly, strumming her pipa "lute"...


For practice in sketching & to reveal chi "breath/energy"...


Please tell us more of your stone interests and activities, Deng. I would ask broader questions if you will entertain them. Can you share more about stone collecting practice in your local or regional area?

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.

the discription on Ying Stones are from "Worlds within Worlds" by ...

and I took these photos by myself，and you can used these photos at any condition

Hi Deng... Thanks for sharing. I hope the IBC's other new Chinese stone contributor Wen will share more of his appreciation.

The Ying stone collection on shelves is quite extraordinary. Is it a private collection or public? Are the stones collected recently? Do you know if they were mounted by a single shizuo "stone seat" carver or several and over a short or long duration?

Did you choose Worlds Within Worlds to describe regional stones of China because:
1. it is easily available in English translation?
2. it is held in high regard among Guangzhou stone enthusiasts?
3. other reasons?

Are there other texts (or articles) that you recommend (including Chinese texts) for deeper appreciation of Ying stones?

Again, thanks for sharing!!!!

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.



我的好朋友、我的老师wen，是中国最好的大学——北京清华大学的教授，也是我国研究石头的一个非常优秀的专家！由于他所在的大学工作比较忙碌，所以要有时间才会偶尔上上网，只要有充足的时间，我想他会常常来与各位分享我们中国的石头文化！

我在我的故乡—Yingde Guangdong。从事Ying Rocks(yingshi)的研究、收藏和销售工作，并有自己出售石头的商店！

如果一个石头上了“stone seat”，这个优美的石头就成为了艺术品，这种“stone seat”是长期的，通过“stone seat”所创造的艺术品才能让石头销售入千家万户。

我在以前的回答中摘录Harvard University Art Museums的研究专著《Worlds Within Worids; The Richard Rosenbium Col-iection of Chinese Scholars’ Rocks》，因为这也是你们对中国石头认识的入门读物。

因为Ying Rocks(yingshi)和Ligbi Rocks(Ligbishi)、Taihu Rocks(Taihushi)都是1000多年前就盛行于中国古代的贵族，是贵族和有知识的人对艺术欣赏的一种态度。

My good friend, my teacher wen, China's best universities - a professor at Tsinghua University in Beijing, is China's research of a very fine stone experts! Because of his relatively busy university, so there must be time to occasionally on the Internet, as long as there is sufficient time, I think he would often come to share with you our culture of China's rock!

I am in my hometown-Yingde Guangdong. Engaged Ying Rocks (yingshi) research, collections and sales and the sale of the stones have their own shops!

If a stone on the "stone seat", this beautiful stone has become a work of art, this "stone seat" is a long-term, through the "stone seat" of works of art created by selling the stones to get into the tens of thousands of households.

I answered in the previous excerpt of the Harvard University Art Museums research monograph "Worlds Within Worids; The Richard Rosenbium Col-iection of Chinese Scholars' Rocks", because this is your understanding of China's stone primer.

Because Ying Rocks (yingshi) and Ligbi Rocks (Ligbishi), Taihu Rocks (Taihushi) are more than 1000 years ago the prevalence of the nobles in ancient China is the aristocracy of knowledge and appreciation of the artistic attitude.

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Hi Deng... Thanks for sharing, again. It is good to learn more of your interests and activities.

Thanks for extending your description to acknowledge your teacher Mr. Wen.

My local stone club will be discussing Chinese stones at its next meeting. The club secretary just distributed:

The next Potomac Viewing Stone Group meeting will be from 1 - 4 p.m., Sunday, June 7, 2009, in the auditorium at the US National Arboretum.

Meeting topic:
Most of us find Chinese scholar's rocks, shangshi, or gongshi to be fascinating, but some are obviously more fascinating than others, and our individual preferences differ greatly. As we see and enjoy more stones, our taste may also change. Are we able to say what makes a fine scholar's rock? A number of authors have written on the topic, and at the June 7 meeting we will have an open discussion of Chinese scholar's rocks and try to define what qualities make a fine stone compared with a lesser stone.

Those of you who own Kemin Hu's first book, The Spirit of Gongshi: Chinese Scholar's Rocks, please bring it with you, as it will be a good starting place or framework for our discussion. Also, and more importantly, please bring several Chinese or Chinese-style stones to enhance our discussion and for a more extensive "show and tell" segment. We all have a passion for stones, and it is by sharing our knowledge, thoughts, passion and opinions, that each of us can learn and further refine our tastes.

From a classic Lingbi qishi "fabulous stone" to the Fengli stone that resembles cooked pork, I hope we'll learn something of taste and prejudices that will open us to deeper appreciation.

Mr Chris Cochrane, thank you very much

Please enjoy some of collectibles store

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.

Ying Rocks(Yingshi)是中国古代皇室和文化贵族最为欣赏的四种石头之一，它的主要特点是外形的夸张变幻，它的外形像天上的云朵，又像人间的舞姿，让人第一次观赏都有不一样的感觉，一种与中国哲学理论中的感觉！

同时让我们感到骄傲的是，Ying Rocks(Yingshi)现在在北京故宫的庭院中还留存28块，同时Hangzhou的Wrinkled Cloud Peak也是我们Ying Rocks(Yingshi)最杰出的代表！

我也非常高兴你们协会将在下个月讨论我们中国的石头，如果我能够，我将为你们提供我力所能及的帮助，同时也希望你们的讨论会有非常快乐的分享！


Ying Rocks (Yingshi) is the ancient Chinese royal family and culture to enjoy the most noble one of the four stones, which are mainly characterized by the exaggerated shape changes, it looks like the clouds in heaven, like the dance world, people watch the first time are not the same as the feeling of a theory of Chinese Philosophy feeling!

At the same time, let us take pride in the fact, Ying Rocks (Yingshi) now in the courtyard of the Palace Museum in Beijing also retained 28, and Wrinkled Cloud Peak of Hangzhou is also Ying Rocks (Yingshi) on behalf of the most outstanding!

I am also very pleased that the Association will be you next month to discuss China's stone, if I can, I will provide you with the help and I also hope your discussions will be very happy to share!

中国的石头有一个欣赏点，就是就石头看成大自然的缩影，这个石头最奇怪的地方是石头的中间有洞穴，而且洞穴下面还有独特的纹！

China's appreciation of the stones have a point, that is, on the stone as a microcosm of nature, the stone is most amazing is the middle of a rock cave, and cave the following patterns are unique!

上帝创造的石头，所展现的迷人舞姿，让人类感憾是多么的神奇呀！

God created the rock, the charming dance show, so that the human sense of how magical regret it!

The last stone above looks carved by man??

No that is water worn limestone Billy. I see stuff "like" this in rivers here quite regularly. Unfortunately it is never in just the right beautiful shape as these are.

Kevin:

I am willing to bet the farm that the stone is "manufactured."
I am also willing to wager that the next step is a sales pitch.

Peter Aradi

PS. Sorry for the posting Chris!

Hi Deng... Thanks for contributing to understanding of fine Chinese stones. For stones seen as a microcosm of nature, you share the value of a rock cave among “most amazing” features.

You build upon repeated expression in Chinese literature and art of seeking untrammeled & boundless paradise inside of things. Among other Chinese allusions, a cave reflects or is mirrored by:
- a remote mountain entrance to another world exactly representing the world outside;
- the entrance to a heavenly land of immortals;
- entrance to the timeless valley of Tao Yuanming’s “Peach Blossom Spring,”
- entrance/view for a cultivated scholar through a circular ("moon") gate or window framing a garden or landscape scene.
- the neck & entrance of a double-gourd, through which a wandering Daoist sage might pass magically and imaginatively to reside in another universe or make his temporary home.

I am very appreciative of your effort, Deng. I can see that you rely heavily on automated translation to share with us in English. I can only imagine the difficulty of reading in English through automated translation. As with stones, the vocabulary of English is not particularly precise, and grammar is even less revealing than the words to express feeling. The nuances which allow pathos and humor, rage and love, fear and trust et al. to be felt are often outside the words themselves. If we exchanged treasured pets, their language for us would be authentic and extended through the wag of a tail or an expressive look, and so it is with our stones.

What is it that our stones share without speaking or wagging?. What do we share of appreciation that puts us in communion with Chinese scholar collectors of a distant past... or is there anything that does?

Stones do not affect an enthusiast because of scoring across a list of attributes. Still, common guidance for traditional scholars rocks include:
- shou-zhou-lou-tou (attributes of Taihu garden stones),
- xing-zhi-se (“shape, material. color”),
- coalescing of heaven-earth energy into form through landscapes/mountains compressed further into rocks and
- assembling the beauty of a thousand cliffs in a fist-sized stone.

In Worlds Within Worlds (p. 109 f.), Richard Rosenblum notes that in periods earlier than the present, Chinese collectors were less concerned with natural contour & surface being represented by only nature’s action. If man’s imagination could improve upon the feeling for nature, it was not only acceptable but preferred. Today, naturalness is felt authenticated more by lack of manipulation than by inventiveness & craft skill which covers its tracks. The traditional approach seems at least as valid for stones in antique-style as it matches the practice of past collectors.

A problem for collectors other than in China is lack of skill in craft. Western craftsmen seldom (if ever) compare to the better Chinese craftsmen in mounting, manipulating contours/textures & finishing antique-style Chinese stones. Finishing stones to appear natural indefinitely is particularly impressive.
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GOOGLE TRANSLATE (Traditional Chinese)
您好鄧小平...感謝有助於了解中華優秀石頭。的石塊被看作一個縮影性質，您共享的價值石窟中“最令人驚訝”的特點。

您的基礎上反复表達的華文文學和藝術的追求untrammeled ＆無限天堂裡的東西。在其他中國典故，一個洞穴反映或反映：
-偏遠山區進入另一個世界到底代表以外的世界;
-入口的天堂土地的神仙;
-進入永恆的山谷陶淵明的“桃花源”
-入口/期為培養學者通過通函（ “月亮” ）門或窗口制定了花園或景觀現場。
-頸部及入口雙葫蘆，通過這些流浪道家聖人可能通過神奇和富有想像力居住在另一個宇宙，或讓他暫時回家。

我非常感謝您的努力，鄧小平。我可以看到您倚重自動化翻譯與我們分享英語。我只能想像的困難，閱讀英語通過自動翻譯。由於石塊，詞彙的英語不是特別精確，和語法甚至更少的話揭示比表示的感覺。的細微差別，使感傷和幽默，憤怒和愛，恐懼和信任等。 [一]感覺到[ /一]往往以外的話本身。如果我們交換了寶貴的寵物，他們的語言對我們來說將是真實的，並延長通過搖了尾巴或表達期望，所以我們的石頭。

它是什麼，我們的石頭份額不說話或搖搖？ 。我們如何份額讚賞，使我們在與中國學者收藏家的一個遙遠的過去...或者是還有什麼呢？

滾石不影響愛好者，因為跨越得分的清單屬性。儘管如此，共同指導傳統學者岩石包括：
- [一]守週樓頭[ /一] （屬性太湖花園石） ，
- [一]杏芝申請[ /一] （ “形狀，材料。顏色” ） ，
-凝聚了天地能量形式通過景觀/山區進一步壓縮到岩石和
-組裝的美麗一千懸崖在一個拳頭大小的石頭。

在[一]世界在世界[ /一] （第109頁荷蘭盾） ，理查德羅森布魯姆指出，在時間早於當前，中國收藏家都不太關心的自然輪廓線和面所代表的不僅性質的行動。如果人類的想像力可以提高對自然的感覺，它不僅是可以接受的，但首選。今天，自然更是感到認證缺乏操縱，而不是發明和工藝技巧包括軌道。傳統的做法似乎至少是有效的，石頭在古典式的，因為它符合以往的作法，收藏家。

收藏家的問題以外的其他中國是缺乏技能工藝。西方工匠很少（如果有的話）進行比較，以更好地在中國工匠安裝，操縱輪廓/紋理和整理古典式的中國石頭。整理石頭無限期出現自然是特別令人印象深刻。

收集在美國弗吉尼亞州：
- 50磅石...
[ IMG公司] https://i.servimg.com/u/f64/13/44/48/20/vawax510.jpg [ / IMG公司]

- 3.8英寸（略低於10厘米）高石...
[ IMG公司] https://i.servimg.com/u/f64/13/44/48/20/ywaxfl10.jpg [ / IMG公司]

Collected in Virginia USA:
- 50 pound stone...


- 3.8 inch (slightly under 10 cm) high stone...

Thanks for your repies. I will explain that our Chinese people love rock art has been passed more than a thousand years of history, we do not like the transformation of man-made stone shape, all through the way we have always been as natural as the standard and respect the will of God!

Mr Billy and Mr Paradi, I think if you carefully read my previous place of origin in the mountains photographs taken, you would not think of!Mr Kevin is an expert in this area, the nature of these stones is limestone, which is the role of the formation of the impact of millions of years of rain, wind, sunlight exposure,carbohydrates!

If you Paradi me now, I think I will win you a dollar, huh, huh!


Thanks for your reply!
First I would love to tell you that it have been long history for Chinese took interested in rock art . and we prefer the rock which are made of nature than those been man-made .We take the nature as standard and respect for god’s will!

My dear Billy and Paradi, I am assure that you won’t doubt after you view the rocks’ photo where I took at the place of origin showed at previous page .
Mr Kevin must a connoisseur of the rocks. These rocks’ essence is the limestone, been million years’ sunburn and windburn then resulting from carbohydrate.

I will gain one dollar from Paradi if you beside me right now!


謝謝三位閣下的回復，我先說明一下我們中國人對石頭藝術的愛好已經傳承了一千多年的歷史，而且一向以來我們都不喜歡人為的改造石頭的外形，我們從來都是視天然為標準，尊重上帝的意志！

尊敬的Billy閣下和Paradi閣下，我想你們如果認真看了我上一頁在山上原產地所拍的照片，你們就不會這樣認為了！還是Kevin閣下是這方面的行家，這些石頭的本質是石灰岩，它們是由千百萬年的雨水衝擊、風吹、日光暴曬、碳水化合物作為生成的！
如果Paradi閣下現在在我身邊，我想我會贏得您的一美金的，呵呵！

Mr Chris Cochrane,thank you very much.

Your photo is YELLOW WAX ROCKS (Huanglashi), we are also very popular in China, Harvard University Art Museums in the research monograph "Worlds Within Worids; The Richard Rosenbium Col-iection of Chinese Scholars' Rocks" are summarized below:


YELLOW WAX ROCKS (Huanglashi) :Obtained from river-beds in Guangdong and Guangxi provinces, yellow wax rocks were first collected for studio display during the Qing dynasty, probabiy in the seventeenth or eighteenth century, Composed of golden silica, most likely in the form of quartz, they are hard, dense, and homogeneous. The majority of yellow wax rocks are opaque, though a few are slightly translucent. Appreciated for their golden caramel color, such rocks often have intricately textured surfaces; rare examples boast perforations.
Yellow wax rocks are often mistaken af first for golden Shoushan soapstones. Because they are composed of silica yel-low wax rocks are much harder than soapstone and thus do not yield to the carver’s knife, so the literati did not use them for seals. Like jade, yellow wax rocks are harder than steel and were shaped not by chiseling but by grinding their surfaces with corundum, quartz sand, crushed gamets, or other hard, fine-grained abrasives.
The popularty of yellow jade during the Yuan and Ming dy-nasties had paved the way for acceptance of brightly colored stones into scholarly circles – a world previously retricted to sober shades of black, white, and gray, Once the colorful Qing tian, Shoushan, and Changhua soapstones had become the preferred materiais for personal seals in the Ming, they quickly found popu-larity as scholars’ rocks during the Qing. The golden Shoushan stones doubtless lent their status as studio rocks to yellow wax stones, which are visually similar; in fact, yellow wax rocks may well have come into their own only after having served as substi-tutes for the very expensive Shones, in the same man-ner that Ying rocks had served as substitutes for Lingbi in the early ming.


您的照片中的是YELLOW WAX ROCKS (Huanglashi)，在我们中国也很流行，在Harvard University Art Museums的研究專著《Worlds Within Worids; The Richard Rosenbium Col-iection of Chinese Scholars’ Rocks》摘錄如下：


黄腊石，产于广东和广西境内的河床，大约在十七、十八世纪首次作为文房石收藏。材质为金黄硅质，很可能是石英石。黄腊石材质坚硬均匀，大多数呈不透明状，少数为半透明。黄腊石因色泽如阿胶和表面玉脂细腻而深受文人喜爱。人们常常将黄腊石误看成寿山石。前者主要成份是硅质，且硬度远高于后者，因些文人不采用黄蜡石刻制印章。如同玉石，黄腊石硬度高于钢，不是雕琢成形，而是采用金刚砂、石英砂等研磨成形。
黄色玉石在元代和明代的盛行为色彩斑斓的赏石成为文人学士的藏石作了必要的铺垫。文人们原先只欣赏黑、白、灰等素色调的石头。一旦青田、寿山和昌化等印石成为明代首推的印章石，便很快在清代成为风靡一时的文人石。

Dear Mr. Deng:

My name is actually Peter Aradi. I have have visited China several times and have a working knowledge of the Chinese stone markets.
My bet is still applicable.

Mr. Deng:

Two more images:

My wife and I at the Duo Lun Exhibit in Shanghai.
Cheers.

Peter