Collector and researcher of Ying stone

Mr. Deng:

I have turned to the book you have quoted, "World Within Worlds", and tried to find a passage that was in the back of my mind.
I found it on page 127 and will quote it for you:
"In addition to their natural features, the rocks examined in this study also show signs of artificial enhancements to their shapes. Marks resulting from V-shaped carving tools, fine-tipped burins, and drills were noted on several rocks, and many of their overall forms were suspected of being sculpted. However, clearly identifying where nature ended and human intervention began was not always possible. The level of craftmanship was extremely high, and any tooling was meant to be undetectable."

It is interesting to note that Mr. Rosenblum assembled his collection with expert assistance and paid high prices. If the most famous collector in the Western world can be fooled, what chance a poor one like myself has?

In addition I would like to mention that we have visited stone markets in China on three occasions with experts; first with a Chinese born American stone dealer, the second time with a Chinese stone collector and dealer who had a stone shop in Tokyo at the time, and several years later with a famous award winning Chinese stone collector. On all three occasions they have pointed out to my wife and I numerous stones with modifications and in some cases what techniques were used to disguise human intervention. Their estimate of the percentage mislabeled and/or modified stones ranged from 50 to 90%.

I am not a native speaker of English and well aware of translation problems. I suggest that you have a capable English translator help you with some of our statements over and above the easly misunderstandable machine translator.

Sincerely yours,

Peter Aradi

PS. Chris: In spite of my previous promise to stay out of the forum, I reserve the right to enter any discussion that I deem to present viewing stone culture in a mythical and unrealistic form.
If this is against forum policies, feel free to delete the posting.

I think that you may have misunderstood my comment Mr Deng. Just to set the record straight, I do not claim to be an expert in this area, only that I know water worn limestone when I see it. I was supporting you!

I have been an amateur geologist for 50 years and a geography teacher with a special interest in physical geography for 30 years. I also did a lot of caving/speleothunking - mostly in the limestone caves of Yorkshire, when I was younger.

This is the sort of water worn limestone I find very close to home. Not a patch on shapes that you can find, but water worn limestone nonetheless.

Mr. Deng seems sincere in his sharing. I find his postings interesting.

Mark

Thank you Sir, I am relatively busy day tomorrow to give you a detailed reply!


謝謝各位先生，我這兩天比較忙碌，明天再給各位詳細回复！

Dear Mr Peter Aradi
I am glad that you have been to China several times, I believe you have been my rock-depth understanding of our ancient China, we in fact does not exclude the manufacture of stone, but also there were many works of art to imitate natural stone However, natural stone, for us, will always be the most valuable! China hopes the next time you can shop to my face-to-face identification, this should be my honor!

Dear Mr Kev Bailey
Thank you for your support, I would like a better understanding of your scholars limestone, weathering to know the charm of a gentle breeze blowing to ask thousands of years stones, stone shape will dance with the wind and the!

Dear Mr Mark
Thank you for your interest!

I would also like to become friends with you, we work together for our common interest and discussion, is a matter of how wonderful you!

There are three stone-generated forms, weathering, soil erosion, fresh water flows!


Dear Mr Peter Aradi
我很高興您已來過幾次中國，相信您對我國的石頭已有深入的瞭解，在我們中國古代，我們其實也並不排斥製造的石頭，而且還出現過不少模仿天然石頭的藝術品，但天然的石頭，對於我們來說，永遠都是最珍貴的！希望您下次到中國，能到我的商店當面鑒別，這應該是我的榮幸！

Dear Mr Kev Bailey
謝謝您的支持，我想您的一個比較瞭解石灰岩的學者，知道風化的魅力，微風將石頭吹撫千萬年，石頭的形狀也會隨著風吹而起舞的！

Dear Mr Mark
謝謝您的關注！

我也希望能和你們成為朋友，我們一起為我們的共同愛好而討論，是一件多麼美妙的事情呀！

石頭有三種生成的形式，風化、泥土的蝕食、水的流動！

Dear Mr Deng,

in your last reply you lost two factors very important, the impact of bacteria in all your categories and
impact of microorganisms which built the limestones in all world around.

marco

paradi wrote:Kevin:
I am willing to bet the farm that the stone is "manufactured."
I am also willing to wager that the next step is a sales pitch.
Peter Aradi
PS. Sorry for the posting Chris!

the Ying stones of Deng presented here are basically natural-shaped, apart from a few of them(erect long ones) that are cut at the bottom.
I feel very sorry that Peter's visits of Chinese stone market gave him a poor impression.

In fact, any serious Chinese stone collector particularly cares about if the stone is natural of not. And they wont accept a shape-stone if the shape is manufactured by man. for some of the stone types, such as Jiulongbi stone (from Hua'an, Fujian Province)and Ying Stone, the stones that are cut at the bottom are generally accepted.

But the condition is quite different in ancient times. As far as I know, many ancient shape-stones (like Ying stone and Lingbi stone) have man-made holes in it

Dear Mr. Wen:

Thank you for your posting. It does clarify the issue.
Not all stones are God made and not all stones are man made. There is a great mixture in any market and it is good to be aware of this fact.
My experience at Chinese markets were very positive; I had to learn how to distinguish types of stones and their quality.
I am also sure that I have made errors in judgement and have purchased "manufactured" stones.
I have five Jiulongbi stones, a very large one that is cut at the bottom and four smaller ones that are natural.
I have three Ying stones, all are natural.
However, I must mention that I have never seen a natural Ying stone with the artistically detailed veins that was illustrated by Mr. Deng.
On that specific stone I remain skeptical.

Thank you again for your posting.

Peter Aradi

Dear Mr Paradi
現在，我的老師Wen已經向您解釋有關石灰岩地貌所生成的有關特徵，我現在必須向您和大家介紹一下我們中國一處非常著名的景觀雲南Stone Forest，它的地貌在生成Ying Rocks(Yingshi)的地貌有許多的相似的特徵，完全是天然，讓大家再次領略上帝的魅力！

Dear Mr Paradi
Now, my teacher, Wen has been to explain the limestone topography that you generated on the characteristics, I must now introduce to you and one of our most famous Chinese landscape in Yunnan Stone Forest, it generated landscape Ying Rocks (Yingshi) the landscape there are many similar features, is completely natural, so we once again appreciate the charm of God!


The Stone Forest lies about 80 miles to the southeast of Kunming. A geological phenomenon, the Stone Forest was a vast expanse of sea during the Paleozoic era——some 270 million years ago. Later, the movement of tectonic plates altered the earth's crust, causing the sea to recede and its limestone bottom to appear, thereby forming land. Due to the constant seeping of rain through the cracks in the limestone, some of the stone formation dissolved and the fissures broadened, producing a group of great sculptures of different shapes, all molded by nature.
　　In the midst of the forest, there is a huge rock screen on which two words——Stone Forest——are engraved in official script (in a calligraphic style typical of the Han Dynasty, 206 B.C.-220 A.D.). Among the scenic sights is the "Sword Peak Pond" with jadeite-colored water so clear that one can see the bottom of the pond. Other astonishing sights include "Figure of Ashima," "Shi Ba Xiang Song" (its name originating in the Chinese love story, "Liang Shanbo and Zhu Yingtai"), and "Lotus Peak."

furuya wrote:Dear Mr Deng,

in your last reply you lost two factors very important, the impact of bacteria in all your categories and
impact of microorganisms which built the limestones in all world around.

marco

Dear Mr furuya

You say these two factors is very important that I have overlooked, I think these two factors on the impact of limestone may be relatively small!

您說的這兩個因素很重要，是我所忽略的，我想這兩個因素對石灰岩的影響可能比較小！

Sorry Mr Deng but you have misunderstood again. Marco is suggesting that bacteria and microorganisms are responsible for building and then sculpting the limestones. He is absolutely correct in this.

Kev Bailey wrote:Sorry Mr Deng but you have misunderstood again. Marco is suggesting that bacteria and microorganisms are responsible for building and then sculpting the limestones. He is absolutely correct in this.

Dear Mr Kevin
I think I'll have to pay attention to the impact of these two aspects, I have always thought that this is a very small impact, but in the long history, I would like to change their stones will have a positive impact!

我想我以後要注意這兩個方面的影響，我一直認為這是很微小的影響，但在漫長的歷史長河中，我想它們對石頭的改變也會產生積極的作用！

Please enjoy Ying Rocks (Yingshi) of the holes, the formation of these caves is not easy it is very difficult, because they are violent in the air, going through hundreds of millions of years of wind and rain!

請欣賞Ying Rocks(Yingshi)有關的洞穴，這些洞穴形成的難度是非常不容易的，因為它們暴在空氣中，經歷億萬年的風吹雨打！


http://i61.www.servimg.com/u/f61/13/91/20/87/2416.jpg

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Hi Kev. You write,

Marco is suggesting that bacteria and microorganisms are responsible for building and then sculpting the limestones. He is absolutely correct in this.

Like most "absolutely correct" assertions, this one seems a little cock-eyed to me. Ying rock formed as a precipate along walls of aquifers in an underground karst formations. Early collection was in pits dug tens of feet underground. I do not see evidence that this limestone was formed from an ancient (sea)bed built from the remains of microrganisms, if that is suggested. The sculpting is more chemical & physical (e.g, solution weathering & water flow) than biological according to scientific analysis found in Worlds Within Worlds.

Rosenblum seemed to agree with a Chinese visitor to Boston that the color varies from the darker stone at the lower part of aquifer channels/caves to lighter stone at the upper part. The color was not affected by surface bacterial action so much (though bacteria/microrgaisms affects exposed limestone) as by consistency of submersion as the stone formed-- the color is not merely a skin, as that which is prized for suiseki.

Hi Chris,
please read "Microfacies of Carbonate rocks" by ERIK FLUGEL SPRINGER edition: ISBN 3-540-22016-X , library of Congress Control Number:
2004104816 .

To page 390 : (Bioerosion and Boring Organisms) Erik Flugel write:
"Microborers are highly effective in the biological degradation of subaerially exposed carbonate rocks ( e.g. karst)and of limestones used as building stones."

Best regards,

marco

Hi Marco... Scientists focused on Ying rocks in the text Worlds Within Worlds find the fissures and color are explainable from running water & solution weathering. Scouring & chemical weathering create pits, furrows and scallops characteristic of Ying rocks. Coloring & material structure is consistent throughout the stone rather than of superficial depth. These stones don’t have the skin (preferred in Japanese suiseki) that you have previously concluded as largely a result of biological action. Are the Chinese microborers & Japanese microborers distinct in their effects?

The Flugel text is searchable on Amazon’s website. The burden is perhaps in your direction to provide an explanation that refutes the explanations of research scientists in Worlds Within Worlds. Flugel is simply silent on these particular stones . That microborers can be highly effective in biological degradation of rocks once submerged & later exposed (that’s the best I can make of “subaerially exposed”) doesn’t insist that they are. He also notes the lithification of sediment through ”dissolution/precipitation of subsurface carbonate rocks by fresh water moving down aquifers (p. 272),” but that neither limits nor expands other options for a particular limestone formation.

Each stone formation has the character of its own circumstance. My local Edinburg limestone, your Liguria Alps palumbino, Deng’s Yingde & Kev’s Welsh crags have geological peculiarities. Flugel’s book makes those distinctions more discernable for a geologically-sophisticated reader reviewing a particular formation. From his reviewers, I’d imagine Flugel is the darling of petroleum speculators because of not over-generalizing. Otherwise, one limestone formation would tell the same geological history as another.

My perception is geologically naïve, but far less speculative. I expect Deng or his friend Wen can reveal more. WWW is neither sacrosanct nor particularly clear. Generally, the WWW geological inquiry was geared to assessing Richard Rosenblum’s older stones in light of present Guangzhou landscape & scientific evidence.

Hi Chris,

I can agree with you for many of your statements, Eric Flugel is a paleontologist, what he says is proved by many pictures and we know that
all limestones are build by microorganisms and we says even that there are other bacteria that destroyed limestone not only water-wind etc.
I asked myself this simply question, why in all world there are spots where the stones are perfectly formed like mountains,animals etc.. and in other places, sometimes near, the stones are formless; if only nature forces worked, we must find allways this perfect kind of stones.
Think to that, Chris.
In World Within Worlds scientists focused with only electronic microscopic to some stones, they didn't searched all reasons of stone formation
because like Mr Deng they thought not relevant bacteria action. I think the contrary.

best regards,

marco

I have been unable to upload photos of three days,and do not know why so.

不知道为什么，我这三天都无法上传照片！

Deng wrote:I have been unable to upload photos of three days,and do not know why so.

不知道为什么，我这三天都无法上传照片！

Deng, there have been problems with the host. I think they are close to being resolved. Here's a test image that was successful. Please try to post your images again!

Hi Deng... I received notice that a post arrived on this thread, yesterday, but could never see it. As John Quinn notes, the site administrators (Kevin Bailey especially!!!) are monitoring if we can help the host service provider resolve the problem, which only a few have experienced.

(As a temporary alternative): If you wish to send a message &/or photo through me to this list, I will gladly forward it if I can. My email address is "sashaichris@gmail.com"

Thanks, again, for sharing.
-----
您好邓小平...我收到通知后抵达本线，昨天，但永远无法看到它。正如人John Quinn指出，网站管理员（凯文贝利是！ ）的监测，如果我们能够帮助服务提供商的主机解决问题，只有少数有经验的。

（作为一个临时的替代） ：如果你想发送信息和/或照片通过我这个名单，我会很高兴地期待，如果我可以。我的电子邮件地址是“ sashaichris@gmail.com ”

谢谢，再次分享。

Please enjoy the Ying Rocks caves, these caves formed it is very difficult to not be an easy task, as they storm in the air, going through hundreds of millions of years of wind and rain!

请欣赏Ying Rocks有关的洞穴，这些洞穴形成的难度是非常不容易的，因为它们暴在空气中，经历亿万年的风吹雨打！

Now it works Thank you for your enthusiastic help!

现在可以了，谢谢各位的热心帮忙！

Where else can they be found? What type of events needed to happen to create them?
Irene

Hi Irene... A simple field test for identifying calcium carbonate (limestone) is to apply an acid. Even a weak acid will dissolve some surface and release bubbles. Natural channeling & holes occur from slow etching caused by weak acidic solution moving or standing on the stone's surface. Along with physical breakage, the acid etching creates most stone contours. Calcium dissolves & precipitates with ease forming & dissolving.

Marco points to a microbiotic source-- more poetic &, perhaps, even spiritual in-feeling because of its living partner. Chemical, physical & organic processes share reverence for stone enthusiasts.

Thank you, and you really want to talk good, but my English is not good to rely on machine translation, please continue to enjoy the red below, from the earth dug out of the Ying Rocks


謝謝大家，真想和大家好好的聊聊，可惜我的英文不好，只能靠機器翻譯，下麵請繼續欣賞紅色的，從土裏挖出來的英石！