Re: pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Marija Hajdic Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:51 am

Bonsai is NOT all about pretty (like that model), proportional, ideal thing, or your subjective idea of it.
Once I was with Andrija in Ivan Mestrovic's gallery. He is worldly famous Croatian sculptor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mestrovic
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93051314@N00/sets/72157594148443846/

My knowledge about sculpting and sculptors was equal to zero, so I have come there as naive observer, with an idea that probably I will be bored.
I one moment I stayed alone in one room and all my attention was on one statue of a man. Suddenly I felt like “some lighten have stroked me”, I felt very anxious, and like I am going to throw out, and I know that feeling was related to the statue. I have find Andrija in another room, and asked him who is the man on that statue, and he told me that it is a Job – biblical figure. Also my knowledge about biblical themes is minimal, and till then I was not familiar with story about Job and symbolic.

Now, question is should I deny Mestrovic art because I had lousy feeling evoked by his ugly statue, or shall we say that artist successively transferred his feelings to one naive, ignorant person, who was not rational at that moment?

Looking at Walter's compositions with this pots (in real much better than over photos) I fell similar connection, but this time, full of positive emotions. They transfer emotions from it's creator to me as observer, and you don't need mind for that, only heart.

Andrija Zokic Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:57 am

landerloos wrote:
Andrija Zokic wrote:Where are proportions and beauty on this body?

Nowhere, its ugly and out of porportion (read: not my taste)

Ok, I accept that you don't understand and feel work of Picasso.

Arter Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:56 am

Andrija Zokic wrote:
landerloos wrote:
Andrija Zokic wrote:Where are proportions and beauty on this body?

Nowhere, its ugly and out of porportion (read: not my taste)

Ok, I accept that you don't understand and feel work of Picasso.

Im following this more and more weird discussion with great interest and I’m getting the feeling that some people here are hiding them self behind the name of Art and don’t understand some basic principles of Art and especially the evolution of art true centuries.

I really hope that none of you people including Mr. Pall think that they are some kind of Picasso of the bonsai world bcs. this is ridiculous. Comparing Picassos work with some new modern way of styling bonsai in the wave of so called natural way is something what people who feel and understand art can’t accept.

What is the evolution of the bonsai art in Europe?
How long the bonsai Art exists in Europe?
Who are the real masters of the bonsai world?
Who, are the judges of the quality of art in bonsai?
Bonsai Art in Europe vs. Picasso?

Picasso painted some stunning realistic paintings, for instance the painting of his well known Apple at the age of 12. This apple is so realistic that if they would have a juice mixer at this time, the painting would not survive bsc. someone would try to make apple juice with this painted apple....after this period of really stunning perfection in painting realistic paintings, Picasso evolved true several additional periods to abstraction.

I’m new in the bonsai world but I know enough to see and feel which tree is developed near perfection and I didn’t se many in Europe and that is the reason why I think it’s a little bit soon to put art paintings form Picasso as some kind of reference for new waves in styling bonsai.

Regards, Artster

Andrija Zokic Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:03 am

Arter wrote:
Picasso painted some stunning realistic paintings, for instance the painting of his well known Apple at the age of 12. This apple is so realistic that if they would have a juice mixer at this time, the painting would not survive bsc. someone would try to make apple juice with this painted apple....after this period of really stunning perfection in painting realistic paintings, Picasso evolved true several additional periods to abstraction.

And I was in realistic sculpting and drawing (you must know that if you want enter into central art school or art academy). Now I'm stuck in bonsai. Very Happy

Andrija Zokic Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:10 am

Arter wrote:
I really hope that none of you people including Mr. Pall think that they are some kind of Picasso of the bonsai world bcs. this is ridiculous. Comparing Picassos work with some new modern way of styling bonsai in the wave of so called natural way is something what people who feel and understand art can’t accept.

Read carefully what I wrote. We are talking about proportions and about meaning words "ugly and beauty" in real art.

Walter Pall Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:15 pm

It would be great to have someone here who has studied art, preferably sculpting and has experiece in bonsai.
An art professor of some kind. This kind of person we could trust to know what he is talking about.

Hans van Meer. Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:50 pm

[Quote from Walter Pall on a politely asked question]
Peter, whenever one of these creations is mature I will show it on major exhibits. I never 'try to submit'. I am used to show whatever I like. This is so in all major exhibits and it was so on the Gingko Award.[/quote]

pots by Mateusz Grobelny - Page 6 Anvil-11

pots by Mateusz Grobelny - Page 6 Anvil-11

I am so proud of my self! That I took the advice from the many importand names in Bonsai that PMed me over the last few days, telling me not to bother my self! So I deleted my reply to the above Quote! My Pill Doter will be so proud of me! Wink

I just have to face up to the fact, that I am just not talented and artistically educated enough to longer participate in this, up to now, very interesting discussion! Unfortunately I am just a guy from the streets, that seams to have the wrong social standards to communicate with the Art elite. One of the standards I do posses is respect, you should look it up some time!
This above chest beating is giving me a rash, so I am back to making bonsai...or.... I might burn one, poet its ashes in a real ugly urn and name it "The future of Bonsai"! Now that's Art for you! lol!

I am out of here!
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

Mike Jones Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:12 pm

Walter Pall wrote:

This thread in part shows clearly that my statement is right: "Bonsai by and large is the most backward looking art form that I know of".

Walter

I do not understand why you say this. I appreciate it is an opinion when you use the 'I,' you have me for one completely confused.

Mike

Walter Pall Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:19 pm

Mike,

in a nutshell:
In just about every other art form you will insult an 'artist' if you tell him that he is not innovating, that he is just repeating what has been done before. It is most normal that not everyone likes what is done, but it is OK as long as the will to be creative is visible. To make something beautiful to please the mainstream taste is about the worst.

In bonsai it is by and large exactly the other way round. The innovator gets crucified. They even pee on his legs and think they they have done a great deed for the art, they brag about how they obey and do what was always done. They would make a perfect fool of themselves in just about any other art form.
Really many remarks proof that bonsai is NOT treated as art form at all. It is treated as craft.

Attila Soos Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:41 pm

Walter Pall wrote:
In bonsai it is by and large exactly the other way round. The innovator gets crucified. They even pee on his legs and think they they have done a great deed for the art, they brag about how they obey and do what was always done. They would make a perfect fool of themselves in just about any other art form.
Really many remarks proof that bonsai is NOT treated as art form at all. It is treated as craft.

Do you have any suspicion why is that? May be it has to do with the long time it takes to complete a tree?

Walter Pall Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:53 pm

Attila,

my suspicion is that it has to do with the origins of bonsai and the motive why many folks do bonsai. I Asia by and large the western concept of an artist as innovator is not accepted. Rather a good artist in Asia is a good copier. Many folks feel they are practicing an Asian, usually a Japanese art form. And they want to do this 'correctly'.
It is a cultural clash as many, like myself, are seeing this as an international art form that is practiced according to a western art culture. And this is diametrically opposed to the Asian 'art' culture. Really the Asian art culture is what by and large would be called 'craft' in he west.
Only with this explanation I can understand the bitterness, hatred and unfairness of argumentation. It is like religions are being defended.

Attila Soos Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:58 pm

Walter Pall wrote:Attila,

my suspicion is that it has to do with the origins of bonsai and the motive why many folks do bonsai. I Asia by and large the western concept of an artist as innovator is not accepted. Rather a good artist in Asia is a good copier. Many folks feel they are practicing an Asian, usually a Japanese art form. And they want to do this 'correctly'.
It is a cultural clash as many, like myself, are seeing this as an international art form that is practiced according to a western art culture. And this is diemetrically opposed to the Asian 'art' culture. Really the Asian art culture is what by and large would be called 'craft' in he west.
Only with this explanation I can understand the bitterness, hatred and unfairness of argumentation. It is like religions are being defended.

Sounds like a reasonable explanation. The way Art is taught in the West is very different from the way Bonsai is taught in the East.

my nellie Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:11 pm

Attila Soos wrote: ... ... The way Art is taught in the West is very different from the way Bonsai is taught in the East.

Exactly so!
Hence, there are those who like and prefer the western way of Art and those who like and prefer the asian way of Bonsai.
No need for either one of them to feel bitterness.
Both of them can coexist and this way the world becomes wealthier. This is surely a benefit.

Attila Soos Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:41 pm

my nellie wrote:No need for either one of them to feel bitterness.
Both of them can coexist and this way the world becomes wealthier. This is surely a benefit.

I wish this was true....It's a nice thought sunny

We could all hold hands and sing together.

tim stubbs Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:09 pm

Attila Soos wrote:
my nellie wrote:No need for either one of them to feel bitterness.
Both of them can coexist and this way the world becomes wealthier. This is surely a benefit.

I wish this was true....It's a nice thought
We could all hold hands and sing together.

pots by Mateusz Grobelny - Page 6 Wrong-11

bonsaisr Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:37 am

Wait a minute. Walter said that in Asia they espouse traditional bonsai, not innovation. Then where does Kimura come in? He is certainly an innovator, but I gather he is well-respected in Japan.
Iris

Guest Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:54 am

I have thought about entering this debate at several points but feel that Mr Pall gets great satisfaction from winding people up. He seems to express a point of view and seldom answers questions from anyone other than those he deals with or works with.

prestontolbert Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:48 am

Wow. This pot thread is about to rival Cochoy's in legnth. What a Face

Guest Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:03 am

In just about every other art form you will insult an 'artist' if you tell him that he is not innovating, that he is just repeating what has been done before. It is most normal that not everyone likes what is done, but it is OK as long as the will to be creative is visible. To make something beautiful to please the mainstream taste is about the worst.

True. I agree fully that every art must try to develop itself. When I defend the classic bonsai as the ground on which stone we build our development, it is because I think we have to understand the basics before we explore the artistic more complicated and difficult ways of bonsai. Bonsai is a very special art form, and it is not easy to make comparing with Picasso e.g.
I understand the point of view though. I just think bonsai is still so young in Europe, that we need to learn more about how to the mix the “colors” before we expand the art to expressions beyond our capabilities. That’s my personal view.

Walter…. In bonsai it is by and large exactly the other way round. The innovator gets crucified. They even pee on his legs and think they they have done a great deed for the art, they brag about how they obey and do what was always done. They would make a perfect fool of themselves in just about any other art form.
Really many remarks proof that bonsai is NOT treated as art form at all. It is treated as craft.

Attila… my suspicion is that it has to do with the origins of bonsai and the motive why many folks do bonsai. I Asia by and large the western concept of an artist as innovator is not accepted. Rather a good artist in Asia is a good copier. …. Really the Asian art culture is what by and large would be called 'craft' in he west.
Only with this explanation I can understand the bitterness, hatred and unfairness of argumentation. It is like religions are being defended.

I think this is not how it is. First of all, I understand why you feel so Walter, because I and others question the work discussed. My motivation to do so is to say stop a minute and look again. Does this work as bonsai or sculpture. I give my personal view and have no intentions of insulting anybody unless they are being arrogant in their approach to me because I think my way.

Bonsai is art, and discussing art is difficult. Innovations are welcome, as I said many times before. Discussing the reasons and motivation behind the development and innovation enlightens the art for us all, but we also have to accept there are differences in culture and viewing the art.
Taste is relevant here, because either you like a color, a texture, a style, or not. But you can’t agree on taste. That part is individual.
Proportions and harmony i.e. is relevant though. As it is in a painting, a sculpture. I do think bonsai is different and not comparable with these art forms. Bonsai is something unique, with its own history.
Painters also seek inspiration at the old masters, and seek the history to understand the art and from there on developing their own way.
You must study the old works to deal with the new.

What is absolute not true, is the view that Japanese bonsai is stuck in the past. If you have any interest in Japanese bonsai you will now that many new ways are tried in Japan. It goes slower in Japan than here maybe, related to culture. But things happen. Just view the now late Saburo Kato that in the age of 91 exhibited a Russian coast shore in a tremendously different way according to the Japanese tradition. His first and last exhibit ever by the way. You can see it at the end of this video.
The display was exactly as the bonsai shown in the area, only the trees was trimmed up front.

Also others are developing new bonsai styles. Pop-bonsai was rewarded a few years ago at the Gafu-ten, and Kaori Yamada (daughter of Tomiyo Yamada, famous in Japan), develops a very loose and relaxed style of bonsai that absolutely does not fit in the bonsai exhibitions if we think they are what we think they are.

So, there are different styles and approaches. We must discuss them without saying anybody may not be innovating or some are stuck in the mud. That’s not what it is about. It is about exploring, understanding the history and basics of the art, to be capable of developing. And not every new approach is a success. Failures are part of the journey.

Earlier this year I build a display rack for Shohin-bonsai displaying out of beautiful driftwood. I shredded it because it just did not work well with my bonsai. Actually, it was horrible. But I tried. I just not show all my failures.

Regards
Morten

Andrija Zokic Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:23 am

Morten Albek wrote:
Bonsai is a very special art form, and it is not easy to make comparing with Picasso e.g.

Can we compare bonsai with any art form from West?

Guest Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:39 am

Can we compare bonsai with any art form from West?

I don't know.

Regards
Morten

tim stubbs Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:48 am

bonsaisr wrote:Wait a minute. Walter said that in Asia they espouse traditional bonsai, not innovation. Then where does Kimura come in? He is certainly an innovator, but I gather he is well-respected in Japan.
Iris

and he was slagged off by the old school when he came up with new ideas !

by will baddeley on Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:54 am

I have thought about entering this debate at several points but feel that Mr Pall gets great satisfaction from winding people up. He seems to express a point of view and seldom answers questions from anyone other than those he deals with or works with.

i have never met Walter nor probably anyone else on here and from what few exhibitions i've been to , most of the "bonsai artists" i've spoken to look at you as though you are dirt because you not in the clic and the dropping of names of the people they have worked with makes them feel important .
Walter has answered my questions when asked , but its his articles i have learned a lot from and respect his views .
i feel a lot of the negativity in this thread is is due to the meanings being " lost in translation " and this with the egos of some people is the main problem

Guest Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:21 am

bonsaisr wrote:
Wait a minute. Walter said that in Asia they espouse traditional bonsai, not innovation. Then where does Kimura come in? He is certainly an innovator, but I gather he is well-respected in Japan.

Iris

and he was slagged off by the old school when he came up with new ideas !

According to Kimura.

Regards
Morten

Andrija Zokic Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:27 am

Morten Albek wrote:
Can we compare bonsai with any art form from West?

I don't know.

Rhythm, harmony, contrast, balance, symmetry, asymmetry, proportion, dominance, union, are all elements of composition represented in bonsai, painting, sculpture, film, photography, architecture …and very often in the history of art new styles is usually inspired by different art types. Neither one type of art is not apart of the others. Bonsai in small steps is starting to become recognized in the West as a type of art and sorted as sculpture.

Guest Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:43 am

Andrija Zokic wrote:
Morten Albek wrote:
Can we compare bonsai with any art form from West?

I don't know.

Rhythm, harmony, contrast, balance, symmetry, asymmetry, proportion, dominance, union, are all elements of composition represented in bonsai, painting, sculpture, film, photography, architecture …and very often in the history of art new styles is usually inspired by different art types. Neither one type of art is not apart of the others. Bonsai in small steps is starting to become recognized in the West as a type of art and sorted as sculpture.

This was not how I was reading your question. Sorry. I think this is going in circles now. No nead to repeat.

Regards
Morten

Sponsored content