̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Joao Santos wrote:

Marija Hajdic wrote:Lime sulphur is in fact calcium polysulfide formed by reacting calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) with sulfur. Those 2 harmless components you can buy everywere and mix them.
This is the recipe that I am using for 10 years:
8 dl of water + 57 g slaked lime, mix and put on fire untill it boils, then ad 85 g of sulfur and mix all together on light fire for 30 minutes.

Hi Marija

I've heard about this recepie too but it won't last for much long, right?

Sorry for all this askings but I'm just starting for about two years yamadory and next summer I'll need some deadwood work and preserve.


João Santos

While producing from 8dl something will evaporate, but at the end you will have more then 1/2 liter of lime sulphur.

Joao Santos wrote
Hi Tim

Even that oil, you use after have used the lime sulphur, correct? This is only to "maintain", right?

João Santos

unquote


Ola Joao,

Not correct.

No lime sulfur has been used.

The linseed oil was applied to the fresh carved wood to waterproof it for the first 2 years. This darkened the wood slightly

The last 2-3 years have applied Ronseal type clear wood preserver only. This is solvent based.

The colour has gone more grey.

Hope this helps

Thks TimR

How about bleaching the wood then applying wood preservative, You'll have the same whitish or greyish (depending on the bleach application) color as lime sulfur gives...plus you'll have a long lasting deadwood.


regards,
jun

jun wrote:How about bleaching the wood then applying wood preservative, You'll have the same whitish or greyish (depending on the bleach application) color as lime sulfur gives...plus you'll have a long lasting deadwood.

regards,
jun

Not sure what you use as wood preservative but if you are talking about wood hardener, they are notorious for turning whitish like glossy film when wet. Not too appealing IMHO.

Not if you let the wood hardener dry THOROUGHLY before you water the top of the tree.

Personally, I think the bleached white look is very much overdone in the world of bonsai. If I use LS, I use it once, then let nature take its course. I seldom (almost never) redo or refresh it.

It happens even if you let it dry thoroughly...esp if moisture can travel from under or inside (as in shari) might work better for jins though.

I agree with the bleached look to be (IMHO) overdone by most. I prefer dead wood with some color variation...different shades is more interesting for me.

JimLewis wrote:Not if you let the wood hardener dry THOROUGHLY before you water the top of the tree.

Personally, I think the bleached white look is very much overdone in the world of bonsai. If I use LS, I use it once, then let nature take its course. I seldom (almost never) redo or refresh it.

... In the construction works and furniture wood restoration we have a process in controlling the too much white effect of the bleach, or in effect control the chemical reaction of the bleach in the wood. We use 50% water 50% white vinegar. But this needs practice before using it in your precious deadwood. You can even have variation in lightness of the bleach in one surface.

regards,
jun

JimLewis wrote:Not if you let the wood hardener dry THOROUGHLY before you water the top of the tree.

Personally, I think the bleached white look is very much overdone in the world of bonsai. If I use LS, I use it once, then let nature take its course. I seldom (almost never) redo or refresh it.

Thanks Jim

You say that you almost never repeat LS but you use walnut or linseed oil once in a while to prevent root, correct??


João Santos

No. Most of the few trees I have used it on are those that don't rot readily (privet is an exception), but then lime sulfur does VERY, VERY little to prevent rot, anyway. The idea that it does, is mostly wishful think. It kills rot fungus maybe for 2 weeks.

JimLewis wrote:No. Most of the few trees I have used it on are those that don't rot readily (privet is an exception), but then lime sulfur does VERY, VERY little to prevent rot, anyway. The idea that it does, is mostly wishful think. It kills rot fungus maybe for 2 weeks.

Thanks Jim

Always learning

Link is to images of an oak bonsai with shari treated with walnut oil.

https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8855-treating-shari-on-oak

Even if it is banned and will no longer be avaiable white acrylic paint with a little black india ink does the same affect and accually lasts longer and also seals the wood. How about that from a one year rookie! Lol.

JimLewis wrote:No. Most of the few trees I have used it on are those that don't rot readily (privet is an exception), but then lime sulfur does VERY, VERY little to prevent rot, anyway. The idea that it does, is mostly wishful think. It kills rot fungus maybe for 2 weeks.

Hi Jim,

There is one thing more that I could not find the right answer:

We've seen that one can prevent root in various ways in deadwood above soil, but how about under soil?

With junipers like this one for exemple, in many cases you have one single live vein rising above the soil in a massive dead bleached trunk. How one can preserve all the massive trunk below soil level?



I hope you can understand my thought.

Thanks

João Santos[img][/img]

That always is a problem. Using a marine epoxy or wood hardener will help, of course, but mostly you have to rely upon soil that doesn't stay saturated, juniper wood's reluctance to rot, and not overwatering.

I finally have the correct information on the lime sulfur epidemic. There is no ban and never was. It all came from collin lewis the manufacturer and supplier of jinn and seal brand lime sulfur. Lime sulfur as of 2005 has to have a registration number to be able to buy and sell it in the united states. Well its only registered for use on shade trees, fruit trees, and roses as a fungicide and pesticide. It is not and has never been registered for use on bleaching deadwood on bonsai. It simply works great and has been used for years. It is also concidered a violation to use the product for other uses than in accordance with its labeling. Jinn and seal by collin lewis is not registered because it cannot be registered for use on bonsai and he was getting grief from the epa and this is where this all came from. There is no ban on lime sulfur anywhere in the U.S. There is only bans on use of this product that are not registered or inconsistant with its labeling. So in other words it accually illeagal to be using in the manner we do but were not going to quit. Just becareful and dont ever put yourself in a situation to be caught. If i use limesulfur on a bonsai and then i sell it there are two violations right there. One for using the product in a manner inconsistant with its labeling and also for selling the bonsai without having went through the proper registration and providing safty and awareness to the purchaser of the tree. Why i dont know but thats what donald baumgartner from the national division 5 of pesticides for the enviornmental protection agency said. I have kept the e-mail for anyone who wishes to see it or wishes to say i dont know what im talking about. Soon as i heard of this i was all over the phone calling manufactures and the epa to get a hold on this situation. Its all about more money for the government and people paying for a registration wich is the same a licence to sell there lime sulfur and the only way to have it registered is if its labeled for use as a pesticide only for fruit and shade trees, and roses. So its still avaiable and will continue to be as long as no one is caught using it for bonsai. Everyone can thank collin lewis because now the epa is onto bonsai growers using it because of his panic alert and they are now reviewing limesulfur for use on bleaching deadwood and thats not a good thing because any comments from the epa i have seen on it is that they dont think it sould be used in this manner. Just great! So what should have never been a big deal now is. Thanks alot!

That pretty much matches up with what I've heard. I posted this on another forum, but forgot to put it here as well:

Lots of conflicting "information" about this. Here in NY, a couple of local retailers (garden centers and a mail order tree/fruit nursery) have told me that Lime Sulfur was banned in NY for the past couple of years. However, the NY DEC (department of environmental conservation) still lists it as a registered product. And as others have noted, it is registered by the EPA.

I spoke with a rep at one of the companies that makes/sells Lime Sulfur, and he said they are still shipping it into NY...but only in 5 gallon containers (so mainly for larger agricultural users). He was unaware of any bans at the state or federal level. He said that one of the companies (Bonide) that used to produce smaller containers, typically carried by smaller garden centers, is no longer doing so. That could account for its disappearance in many places. Still, I don't know where the story of it being banned came from - the more I look, the less likely that seems.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for additional info from the rep, will post if I get anything. (I'm still waiting, but I don't think we really need to hear back).

It has also been pointed out elsewhere that lime sulfur is sold in pet supply stores, and is used (heavily diluted) as a shampoo. Not quite sure I'd want my dog smelling like that, but here is a link:lime sulfur Note, I haven't seen this stuff in person, so cannot say with certainty that it is the same stuff. Does anyone know?

Interesting aside, the chemical rep I spoke with said he's received a number of inquiries from bonsai people, including one well-known re-seller of lime sulfur (who I won't name - but not Colin).

Thanks for the info Chris.
I can't imagine giving my dog a bath in lime sulfur!

And I can't imagine the EPA wasting its time coming after a grower of bonsai because he or she painted some deadwood with the stuff. The EPA has a LOT of much more important things to do. So I'm not sure we've heard the right story yet.

I suspect it's still legal, everywhere except perhaps in the Great and Odd State of California, but perhaps it's not cost effective for the manufactures to package it in small containers for home use?????

I'll do some more research.

Jim Lewis wrote

...perhaps it's not cost effective for the manufactures to package it in small containers for home us????

Jim, I think this is the primary reason it's become difficult to find in many places (as I noted above, i.e. one of the companies (Bonide) that used to produce smaller containers, typically carried by smaller garden centers, is no longer doing so. That could account for its disappearance in many places.). My guess is that it wasn't a big seller at most garden centers, so they just didn't bother to look for a new supplier. I still don't know where the "banned" story originated.

As for the EPA...it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking at the off-label application, and it's quite possible that the bonsai suppliers who sell repackaged lime sulfur will have to stop. But as noted, lime sulfur will still be available...it just might take more effort to find it.

As for the EPA...it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking at the off-label application,

It would surprise me. I put 30 years in at a state environmental agency and have worked with many fine EPA staff over those years. They simply do not have time to watch what the few hundred(thousand?) bonsai people in the USA do with their quart and 16 ounce bottles of lime sulfur, even if they had the inclination to do it. They have their hands full with misuse and misapplication of pesticides and dumping by big agribusiness, among other chores.

Well...whatever the case, in the end I don't think it will matter much. People will still be able to acquire lime sulfur (at least for now) and use it as they see fit. They just may not be able to conveniently purchase it from their favorite bonsai supplier.

Dallas sells it:

http://www.dallasbonsai.com/store/C80-bonsai-supply-Lime-Sulfur-Jin-Shari-Chemical.html

Here you go! Straight from the enviornmental protection agency over pesticide use in the united states. If anyone has any other question you are more than welcome to contact he said. Im sure they cant watch everyone but when i spoke with him over the phone he did say they are going to check into its use for bonsai because they dont belive it should be used for this because its not registered or labeled for deadwood or bonsai use in general.

Jake,

As follow-up to our telephone conversation yesterday, regarding the EPA
cancellation of calcium polysulfide fungicide pesticides, please find as
linked below various EPA documents related to the calcium polysulfide
products and EPA's review of the chemical. I could not find any evidence
that this chemical has been banned by EPA. The latest label on file is
dated 2009 for the one product that you mentioned to me (EPA Reg.
#71096-6), and it has no indication in our database that it is
cancelled. One internet bonsai club blog site says that this is a rumor
with no truth behind it. I could not reach the EPA D.C. Chemical Manager
for the product to ask her if EPA has any actions against this chemical.
Her name is Mary Waller at 703/308-9354. If I hear back from her, I will
let you know.

Please refer to the linked EPA documents for the evaluation of the
chemical. Hope that this helps.

I do have some concerns though, now that you raised it, if this
pesticide should be used on bonsai plants at all?? Bonsai plants are NOT
listed on the label for the product, with only shade trees, fruit trees,
and roses listed on the label. Since bonsai plants are not listed, this
chemical should not be used on these plants, even though you stated that
this is a common and historic use for these products for bonsai growers.
Additionally, anyone using this product and selling the plants, would be
considered in commercial production and also must comply with the Worker
Protection Standards as required under the labeling.

https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8840-lime-sulfur-banned-in-us

(See attached file: CaPoly EFED rev.pdf)(See attached file: Ca Poly Env
Fate.pdf)(See attached file: Ca Poly label.pdf)(See attached file: Ca
Poly RED.pdf)(See attached file: Ca Ppoly FRN.pdf)

Donald Baumgartner
Pesticides Section (LC-8J)
Minnesota Technical Contact, R5 WPS Coord., Bed Bug Specialist
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Region 5

jake4bonsai wrote:Here you go! Straight from the enviornmental protection agency over pesticide use in the united states. If anyone has any other question you are more than welcome to contact he said. Im sure they cant watch everyone but when i spoke with him over the phone he did say they are going to check into its use for bonsai because they dont belive it should be used for this because its not registered or labeled for deadwood or bonsai use in general.

Jake,

As follow-up to our telephone conversation yesterday, regarding the EPA
cancellation of calcium polysulfide fungicide pesticides, please find as
linked below various EPA documents related to the calcium polysulfide
products and EPA's review of the chemical. I could not find any evidence
that this chemical has been banned by EPA. The latest label on file is
dated 2009 for the one product that you mentioned to me (EPA Reg.
#71096-6), and it has no indication in our database that it is
cancelled. One internet bonsai club blog site says that this is a rumor
with no truth behind it. I could not reach the EPA D.C. Chemical Manager
for the product to ask her if EPA has any actions against this chemical.
Her name is Mary Waller at 703/308-9354. If I hear back from her, I will
let you know.

Please refer to the linked EPA documents for the evaluation of the
chemical. Hope that this helps.

I do have some concerns though, now that you raised it, if this
pesticide should be used on bonsai plants at all?? Bonsai plants are NOT
listed on the label for the product, with only shade trees, fruit trees,
and roses listed on the label. Since bonsai plants are not listed, this
chemical should not be used on these plants, even though you stated that
this is a common and historic use for these products for bonsai growers.
Additionally, anyone using this product and selling the plants, would be
considered in commercial production and also must comply with the Worker
Protection Standards as required under the labeling.

https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8840-lime-sulfur-banned-in-us

(See attached file: CaPoly EFED rev.pdf)(See attached file: Ca Poly Env
Fate.pdf)(See attached file: Ca Poly label.pdf)(See attached file: Ca
Poly RED.pdf)(See attached file: Ca Ppoly FRN.pdf)

Donald Baumgartner
Pesticides Section (LC-8J)
Minnesota Technical Contact, R5 WPS Coord., Bed Bug Specialist
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Region 5

Oh-oh...as I said in page 2

Poink88 wrote:All the inquiries might be stirring the pot though and hasten the implementation of the ban (if there is one).

We are drawing undue attention to this issue!

Yeah, but he's said his obligatory piece, and if we don't wave a lime sulfured bonsai under his nose . . .