Re: Request for A Beginnner's Board

[marcus watts]

Ah I see. So as much text as we want too?

every picture tells a 1000 stories Will - i'd say write what you want but people skip it to get to the next picture

i'm showing a reduced progression - earliest picture or first styling, then one a year maybe from now onwards, but each to their own

cheers Marcus

[JimLewis]

I guess those who post to THEIR gallery, can write as much as they want. However, it is intended to be a place for pictures of your trees -- whichever trees you want to post.

Others, however, are NOT to post on the galleries in response. This is an honor system, guys and gals. We could not find a way to lock the threads to all but the original owner.

[fiona]

The best approach to the Gallery forum is to treat it as our "exhibition space", and post as if you were exhibiting your top trees. To that end, it is more about finished trees than otherwise. We deliberately didn't set too many "rules" for this section because it is a "personal space" but I'd advise a fairly minimalist approach. It is certainly NOT for long progression sequences but I'd say things like a before and after is perfectly fine as would showing the same tree in its different seasonal colours/effects.

As an example I intend to post only my top trees - one per post on my thread, photographed well and with a bit of descriptive text - such as is it mame/shohin/chuhin? approx height, years in training etc. I like Marcus's idea of stating if it's native stock or imported but can understand that some members may not like to share that info. I may put one post on the thread up at the very end showing current projects.


And don't forget if you already have an existing gallery of your top trees on something like Flickr, then an option is simply to link to that.

[Guest]

Hi Guys (Mods- and members),

I don't know if it just me. But the new section of the "Bonsai progression and Advanced techniques" are not doing it's supposed functions. I was expecting and feel excited about it at the beginning after the Mods seems to be very vigilant and strict at the posts popping out of that sub section, I was so happy that my test attempt and Rob's attempt were fairly dealt with. I was really expecting something very special coming out of the sub section, but now it is becoming more and more like the "Bonsai discussion", Now I have to open up two different sections to see the same thing.
To clarify this issue- I don't want to offend any members posting in the new sub section,,,like I said, it is just an observation and I am happy seeing all your posts and thread in where ever sections it pop's out . I just thought and hoping that the new section would be different and much more beyond the bonsai discussion.

Please, somebody tell me if it is just me.

I think the Personal Space :galleries- Is doing much better in terms of serving it's function as it offers better filtered materials/photos of member's trees. but unfortunately it is this new section that is not getting enough traffic.


regards,
jun

[Robert Steven]

Hi Guys (Mods- and members),

I don't know if it just me. But the new section of the "Bonsai progression and Advanced techniques" are not doing it's supposed functions. I was expecting and feel excited about it at the beginning after the Mods seems to be very vigilant and strict at the posts popping out of that sub section, I was so happy that my test attempt and Rob's attempt were fairly dealt with. I was really expecting something very special coming out of the sub section, but now it is becoming more and more like the "Bonsai discussion", Now I have to open up two different sections to see the same thing.
To clarify this issue- I don't want to offend any members posting in the new sub section,,,like I said, it is just an observation and I am happy seeing all your posts and thread in where ever sections it pop's out . I just thought and hoping that the new section would be different and much more beyond the bonsai discussion.

Please, somebody tell me if it is just me.

I think the Personal Space :galleries- Is doing much better in terms of serving it's function as it offers better filtered materials/photos of member's trees. but unfortunately it is this new section that is not getting enough traffic.


regards,
jun

I have the same thought as Jun about the "Bonsai progression and Advanced techniques". More sections doesn't always better, that's why I don't visit Bonsai Nut so much (sorry, but this is my personal thought). As Rob said, many busy people will not spend too much time to visit the different sections unless to the very specific one e.g Suiseki..at least I don't although I know I will miss some informative and interesting threads.

IMHO, I don't think we need the "Bonsai progression and Advanced techniques", people can still learn from the "Bonsai Discussion".
Maybe what we can add is something like the "Critique" on KoB we did the the past with quite good responds. People post only their finished bonsai for critique in the positive sense with advises from the experts. This should be managed or moderated in such way to avoid unneccessary fighting arguments. Maybe several "experts" volunteers are needed (e.g Walter Pall...), then the moderator decide to which expert the posted bonsai to be sent for critique and advise according to his/her expertise. People can comment, ask further question after the expert give his/her critique and suggestion, but moderator should monitor the positive/learning discussion instead of fighting attacks as sometime happens here. Just an idea...

However, I like the Gallery and the Personal Introduction.

[Kev Bailey]

Thanks for your feedback Jun and Robert. I feel the same way. The problem is that some people are happy with their efforts and ignore all advice about how this part of the forum is intended to be used. We are allowing it a bit of time to settle down and will continue to request that people use it as it was intended. It is for Bonsai Progressions & Advanced Techniques "finished" bonsai or trees you are happy with. Posts with good historical detail or techniques shown in good photo's

[JimLewis]

The progressions section may have a somewhat lengthy break-in period, I suspect, until people start getting it right. Each of us moderators also may have a different idea what it ought to become, but we too will come to a consensus.

For me . . . if a picture is worth a thousand words, what is a progression series with a "thousand" pictures worth? MY answer is "sometimes, not much." Some progressions can teach valuable lessons, but others with long series of almost identical shots of a partially done tree are just dull -- something like attending a bonsai demonstration, only to spend an hour watching the demonstrator while he is wiring branches.

I think we're really looking for photo essays here. And, having edited my share of these (not bonsai) over the years, I can remember that we would begin with often hundreds of photographs, but then would edit them down to perhaps a dozen (at most eighteen) of the best -- pictures that told the whole story most clearly. I think that should be the goal here. It is more work, but the result will be beneficial to more people.

Just a thought and a suggestion.

[Kev Bailey]

Thanks Jim, clearly put and exactly what I had in mind.

[Guest]

The more time we spend on the break-in, the more confusing it would get. I think an immediate strict intervention from the Mods would set the new sub section in its supposed course. otherwise, it will be accepted as is and all of you guys' effort would be wasted.

Just a thought.

regards,
jun

[coh]

Another way this new forum could be used - as a repository of advanced techniques, by not allowing users to start threads directly in the forum. Instead, threads deemed worthy would be moved there by the moderators. I'm not sure if it would be more work to do it that way, or to have to keep moving threads out of the forum. Could it be set up so that members cannot start new threads but can post to threads that are in that forum?

[Robert Steven]

Another way this new forum could be used - as a repository of advanced techniques, by not allowing users to start threads directly in the forum. Instead, threads deemed worthy would be moved there by the moderators. I'm not sure if it would be more work to do it that way, or to have to keep moving threads out of the forum. Could it be set up so that members cannot start new threads but can post to threads that are in that forum?

Not everyone will be happy to have his thread being moved. Although I have no problem with it, but be honest, it can be quite disturbing...

Another thing, as Jun says, more sections will be more confusing..and will cause less traffic (viewers) to each thread, which may distract people to post new thread.

[Guest]

Another way this new forum could be used - as a repository of advanced techniques, by not allowing users to start threads directly in the forum. Instead, threads deemed worthy would be moved there by the moderators. I'm not sure if it would be more work to do it that way, or to have to keep moving threads out of the forum. Could it be set up so that members cannot start new threads but can post to threads that are in that forum?

That is much better Chris than the current situation. but Robert is also right, some members won't feel satisfied if their threads will be move from either way...example of this is my comment to Dorothy's thread, She seems to disagree for her thread to be moved in the new section. So, It's gonna be a very tasking job for the Mods and a very good balancing act (and should be a very fair act) should be performed too.

Just an observation (again). Some new threads opening up in the "Bonsai discussion" section are I think aimed at becoming included in a finer section of the BPAT (Bonsai Progression & Advanced Technique) ,,,,Too long to type. I'll just use BPAT next time. More progression in the "Bonsai Discussion" are showing more progression work photos, which are better.

Just like the art we all love- The Simple the Better. And we should not be afraid to remove unnecessary branches if it is not doing any good to the design.

Regards,
jun

[coh]

You'll never be able to satisfy everyone. And if someone is so sensitive that they get offended by having a thread moved on IBC, then maybe they shouldn't be posting on message boards at all!

The previous, simpler board set-up was obviously not satisfactory to a certain part of the membership. Presumably the changes have improved things in their eyes while making it more complicated to others. So what do you do? I'm glad the administration is trying to make positive changes in response to member suggestions, and agree that there will need to be an adjustment period. And in the end, perhaps things go back to the way they were. Let's give it a chance - the changes aren't all that complicated. After all, there's really only 1 new forum (Bonsai Progressions) to keep track of...the others (Intro and Gallery) aren't really set up for extensive discussion of bonsai topics.

[Kev Bailey]

That is always an option that we will keep in mind Jun. I have also already proposed the Moderators only to move threads that Chris mentioned, as a possibility if it doesn't work out. We will continue to evolve and hopefully for the better.

[Guest]

Don't get me wrong Chris. I am with and for the better changes too. And I am supporting Fiona, Kev and the rest of the Mods in their effort.

My only concern is, we are trying to change the format of IBC for the better and appreciation of the majority. but there seems to be no changes and I honestly can't see any difference between the content of the Bonsai Discussion and the BPAT at all, and the more time we spend trying to adjust the more similar these two sections would get. That is why I am suggesting a more strict filtering from the Mods and the new section to be really special.

regards,
jun

[coh]

Jun, after re-reading the posts, I think we're in basic agreement! Feel that the moderators are going to have to be more involved to make the distinction work as intended...

[Guest]

Jun, after re-reading the posts, I think we're in basic agreement! Feel that the moderators are going to have to be more involved to make the distinction work as intended...

Yup! I wish I could help more.

...For now the best help I could offer is not to post in the new section until I got the rhythm for the BPAT and I don't want to contribute more to the confusion.

regards,
jun

[Robert Steven]

Yup! I wish I could help more.

...For now the best help I could offer is not to post in the new section until I got the rhythm for the BPAT and I don't want to contribute more to the confusion.

regards,
jun

[fiona]

Jun, after re-reading the posts, I think we're in basic agreement! Feel that the moderators are going to have to be more involved to make the distinction work as intended...

Yup! I wish I could help more. ...For now the best help I could offer is not to post in the new section until I got the rhythm for the BPAT and I don't want to contribute more to the confusion.

Perhaps it might help if we explain what is happening behind the scenes just now and that may alleviate your concerns about moderatorial intervention. If we feel a thread is incorrectly posted in Progressions, we will move it to Discussion and PM the poster to explain why. If we feel it is suitable for the forum but is at the moment lacking in detail, we PM the poster and ask if they can augment it suitably (including your own, Jun, but I see the PM is as yet unopened) Additionally, some members are already taking the initiative and PMing before posting. Where that has happened to me personally, I have worked with the member and agreed the best approach. This latter seems to me to be the way to go and if we all work together, moderators and members, this new forum will work fine.

I'll finish by saying what a couple of members have said to me in PMs: one by-product for them of the Progressions forum is that they are now thinking more closely about how to record their progressions and will have some to post in the near future. Bearing that in mind, can I ask people not to write this off already (it's only 5 days since it was set up after all) and let's all have a think about threads we may have already put on to see if they can be valuable additions to Progressions - as they are or with some additional detail.

Fiona

[fiona]

That is much better Chris than the current situation. but Robert is also right, some members won't feel satisfied if their threads will be move from either way...example of this is my comment to Dorothy's thread, She seems to disagree for her thread to be moved in the new section. So, It's gonna be a very tasking job for the Mods and a very good balancing act (and should be a very fair act) should be performed too.

That actually is not an accurate representation of what she said. Her concern was that threads in Progressions couldn't be commented on or critiqued and that is not the case.

[fiona]

It may help you to know the background thinking on this one. When I was doing the consultation and joined up thinking about any new design for the Forum, several things became very apparent from what was said and what was happening on the forum boards:

1. the Bonsai forum was flooded daily with new threads to the extent that the better threads (and I mean no disrespect to any poster by using that term) were getting pushed down the board very quickly and in many cases lost on to another page altogether before they had received much in the way of comment. This was, rightly IMO, deemed a problem by most members who commented. There also seemed to be a real flavour for having the more "quality" threads separated out.
2. the general trend of threads in the old Bonsai forum could be split into categories as follows: 1. Progressions (ie start to finish work on trees), 2. Development Actions (single actions taken on a tree), 3. Direction Assistance request often in the form of requests for virts, and 4. the general mass of "Show and Tell" - i.e. here's my xxxxx tree - do you like it.

It seemed to me logical that to reduce the traffic into the old Bonsai forum, a split could be made to reroute some of the threads. Having one for the Progressions made sense as they had a high level of "teaching" about them. It also made sense to have the flexibility to move any of the Development Actions that featured an unusual or innovative or even novel variation on a basic technique into that new section.

On that basis, the Bonsai Progressions and Advanced Techniques forum was created, leaving Bonsai Discussion for the other categories and the more routine Development Actions.

On the point raised about it being "nothing special", I personally don't agree and over time this should be more apparent. BUT, if you remember, there is another new section being created although it exists in name only at the moment - the Top Threads part of the Getting the best from your forum: FAQs, Tutorials and Top Threads forum. That is where we will house the repository of "Bonsai wisdom" in the form of all of those named things. The really special threads will be moved here so they are readily available and many thanks to those who have suggested threads that should go here.

Please bear with us, we will get there but it won't happen overnight as those old devils called work/family duties etc have to be attended to as well. I should know - I've already got a row at least twice this weekend for sneaking off to see things are okay on here when I should be entertaining relatives at a family wedding.

[my nellie]

... ...The problem is that some people are happy with their efforts and ignore all advice about how this part of the forum is intended to be used. We are allowing it a bit of time to settle down and will continue to request that people use it as it was intended. ... ...

May I suggest that you might also examine the possibility of new threads being put on a queue for approval... Or this would be considered "very strict/disciplinary" by the "sensitive" members?
I know that there exist fora to which in order to see your post published on the "Market place" forum for example, you need to wait for the approval of a moderator.
I do not believe this is so.... undemocratic. At least it would go on for the very first time until things are set up clearly for everyone.

However, Chris is absolutely right

You'll never be able to satisfy everyone. And if someone is so sensitive that they get offended by having a thread moved on IBC, then maybe they shouldn't be posting on message boards at all!... ....

[fiona]

Thanks for your thoughts, Alexandra. The queue system has some merits in general terms but the practicalities in terms of how it would work here would inevitably mean an unwieldy and unfair burden of work for the Moderators. I administer another bonsai website/blog and it's bad enough moderating the comments which come in under a queue system - and that site has nothing like the traffic IBC has.

[fiona]

I've put up a new thread to respond to some comments and suggestions. So that we can route its reponses to one place, I have locked off this thread. Thanks to all who gave their comments and suggestions.

The new thread is HERE

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