Request for A Beginnner's Board

[jgeanangel]

I remember the old days of IBC when there was bonsai board and potensai board. The bonsai board was for posting pics and questions about trees that you could reasonably refer to as bonsai...The potensai board was for posting about plants that were on their way to becoming bonsai but just not there yet....almost like a beginner's board but a little broader. Moderators did a great job of keeping the threads in their appropriate locations. I would be very interested in something of that nature for this forum.

Of course beginner's have the same rights to post as everyone else...that is not the point here. Everybody brings something to table and it takes all kinds to build a strong learning community. In reality, we have tons of beginner questions and very little more advanced content being posted and this trend seems to be growing a little more every month.

So, how can we honor the beginners but also give those willing to share more advanced techniques, pics, and questions a place to share as well.

I believe that a beginner's board would offer a location where folks new to the hobby could find information easier. There would be less apprehension for them to post about their new tree if it wasn't going right along side something someone has been working on for 20 years or more. Perhaps more incentive for those that like answering beginner questions to do so.

Furthermore, it would serve to make the already existing bonsai board more for advanced questions and sharing. I remember when there were a dozen or more folks like Bill V. from around the world that would post really great content... But now that everything is all lumped together, I think those folks feel like they are having to compete with beginners and we can see what the results have been...the experts are all but gone!!! For those of us that have been around a while, I suspect we all remember when Walter was a regular contributor to this and other fora....then he got tired of dealing with the crap from the "internet masters" and now rarely contributes. and Walter is just one of many for which the same things happened.

This probably sounds really bad and I know I am just one individual (but I know for a fact there are many others that feel the way I do) but quite frankly this forum is not what it used to be...I personally find myself coming here less and less...and I hate that!!! There are really very few Bonsai boards left in English that are not dominated by beginners...IBC could be different (and has been different in the past) and could begin to move back to its place at the top of the heap...we just need to find a way to separate content and questions and encourage more quality content.

What do you think...hopefully if there is enough interest here something might be done about it:)
John

[JimLewis]

Moderators did a great job of keeping the threads in their appropriate locations.

Oh but did we feel the heat when someone felt that their precious tree was moved unfairly. Or NOT moved, if it happened to be "touching" a "Master's" message. <g>

More seriously. that's kinda what "Bonsai Questions" was set up to be, John. But then, we get the issue that the people the beginners REALLY would like to hear from can't be bothered to read the "Potensai" forum and it was just a small half-dozen of us who fielded the potensai questions -- and I'm sure they got sick and tired of "plant it out in the ground or a grow box for a few years" answers. And it's damned hard to convince someone that you can't create a meaningful virtual out of a year-old, pencil-thin whip in a pot.

[coh]

At one point I suggested something similar (a "potensai" type of subforum), and still think it would be worth a try. However...it may not work. I can imagine that those with more experience might avoid such a subforum, and that would leave those of us needing the most guidance without any experienced input.

Worth exploring...would mean more work for moderators, but that shouldn't be the limiting factor...in my beginners humble opinion.

Edited to add - Part of the problem, I think, is that the search function on this site is...sub-par to put it mildly. If you type a word into the main search window, it only returns threads with that word in the title. The "search google" option works better but is not obvious. I would strongly suggest that someone who completely understands how this works should write a short explanation - put it in the FAQ and accessible as a link from the advanced search window (if this already exists, where is it). That might help...I bet many people get frustrated with the basic search and then just post questions to the forum.

[John Quinn]

Something to again consider...what could be the downside? We can always undo it. Thanks for the suggestion, John.

[marcus watts]

hi,
when you lay it out so clearly it makes total sense - I fully agree that the excelent and extremely interesting posts are very diluted - the current 'gems' getting proper responses only number one or two at present.

The bonsai hobby has many levels to it - from keeping your first one alive then rushing around the neibourhood digging up every plant with a trunk - to true skill in refinement and perfection....the two are many miles (and many years) apart, and so should be seperated within the forum. There is a problem with maybe only one person in every 200 here having bonsai experience beyond 10 years, and it can become frustrating at times to wade through the masses of rehashed tripe that posters have read elseware and rewritten as their own experiences. I would love to have an area with the run of the mill repeated topics filtered out to discuss methods, trees and theories where posters need only to add to the topic if they have real not virtual experince to draw upon.

Simple 'this is my tree and this is how i bent it' posts are actually boring - sorry, but a picture of a bush,a cut, a bend and then a nice 2D camera image teach nothing - compare them to the soil acidification, homemade soils and the Robert Stevenson group planting threads and there is no comparison.

I second your call for a new area and really hope the forum listens and acts this time. Maybe some of the experienced writers will be happy to add to general threads then rather than just their own.

good idea

Marcus

edit....if the forum has lost many experienced long standing people where have they gone? the other sites i've found are very poor in comparison to this one - or cover too narrow a topic to be somewhere interesting to learn from

[John Quinn]

Marcus, your idea of a more 'advanced' section of the forum is also interesting.

[Mitch Thomas]

John
I agree with what you are asking. But what about flipping it to add a section like "Questions for a pro" or " Ask a master". Then have a panel of experts with the most expertise in thier respected areas.

Or have a area where only " masters can respond"

No matter what you do you will always have ghost members. It's just the people work.

Either way somebody will feel allienated

Mitch

[GaryWood]

Guys, on the other hand, there are five fingers. Back in the good ole days, I remember a post by Boon, doing a progression on an old, OLD, Ponderosa, magnificent bark, in a box. The moderator said it belonged in the Potensai forum. I don't think Boon came back after that.
Wood

[fiona]

That is truly unfortunate and I'd like to think we'd take a more enlightened view than that nowadays. But you're right to mention it as a clear policy on what goes where would certainly be required before embarking on any rejigging of the current board set-up.

[Poink88]

But now that everything is all lumped together, I think those folks feel like they are having to compete with beginners and we can see what the results have been...the experts are all but gone!!!

I personally give them more credit than that. Forums are dynamic and membership come and go for various reasons...this happens to both newbies and masters.

I hope any change is geared towards improving the forum and pray discernment and guidance for the admin and moderators.

[jgeanangel]

Moderators did a great job of keeping the threads in their appropriate locations.

Oh but did we feel the heat when someone felt that their precious tree was moved unfairly. Or NOT moved, if it happened to be "touching" a "Master's" message. <g>

More seriously. that's kinda what "Bonsai Questions" was set up to be, John. But then, we get the issue that the people the beginners REALLY would like to hear from can't be bothered to read the "Potensai" forum and it was just a small half-dozen of us who fielded the potensai questions -- and I'm sure they got sick and tired of "plant it out in the ground or a grow box for a few years" answers. And it's damned hard to convince someone that you can't create a meaningful virtual out of a year-old, pencil-thin whip in a pot.

Thank you Jim...I know that being a moderator and one of the chief answer providers is mostly a thankless job and you have been tirelessly dedicated to it for a long time now! Thanks! to you and the other moderators!

As to your second point, I think it would be fair to argue that nothing much has changed in terms of how many people answer the lion's share of questions.

It appears to me that everybody has their own role to fill...some will answer questions, some will provide pics of events, some will moderate, others will share progressions and details on techniques, and most will contribute nothing....I am not sure that will ever change...

I think we need to be careful and thoughtful about how the boards are differentiated but I think the right verbaged could be composed to create a couple of boards which focus on levels of development perhaps?

John

[Orion]

One peeve is the lumping of all bonsai into a single "Bonsai" catagory. Many times I find myself sifting through topics on materials that I have no interest in, whether that's from a climate perspective or personal preference. Why not, at the very least, categorize the trees into evergreen, deciduous, tropical, etc? 9 times out of 10 I spend the majority of my efforts using the search function for specific species, not that it's a problem, but it could be a little more user friendly for specifics.

[Poink88]

...if the forum has lost many experienced long standing people where have they gone? the other sites i've found are very poor in comparison to this one - or cover too narrow a topic to be somewhere interesting to learn from

From this thread... https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t9656p15-posting-membership

I may not agree with it all but it is an interesting post/observation.

I don't post much. I've come here since 2006 to read and learn but it took several years before I even registered because I finally felt I had something to post. 6 years into bonsai and I still don't feel I'm ready to give advise on much more than creating ramification on ficus benjamina or a long list of things you shouldn't do. I've got a bonsai blog non the less. I think that's the problem here, on a forum, you start a new topic eiter for asking a question or to show something you have done. Lots of the "masters" are moving over to posting on their blogs. Walter Pall dissapeared from the forums when he started his. Anyone seen Tickle or Baddeley much here lately?
If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

[JimLewis]

One peeve is the lumping of all bonsai into a single "Bonsai" catagory. Many times I find myself sifting through topics on materials that I have no interest in, whether that's from a climate perspective or personal preference. Why not, at the very least, categorize the trees into evergreen, deciduous, tropical, etc? 9 times out of 10 I spend the majority of my efforts using the search function for specific species, not that it's a problem, but it could be a little more user friendly for specifics.

Please go to BonsaiNut.Com to see why that is not a good idea. They have ,forums for everything you can think of and some you shouldn't.

[Billy M. Rhodes]

Please remember that the people who manage this list:
1. Don't get paid.
2. Have some experience.

One constant issue is new members posting in the wrong place for what THEY need. The more sections you have the more opportunity for those errors, which, if they get relocated must be done by one of the list managers, who don't get paid.

[Orion]

One peeve is the lumping of all bonsai into a single "Bonsai" catagory. Many times I find myself sifting through topics on materials that I have no interest in, whether that's from a climate perspective or personal preference. Why not, at the very least, categorize the trees into evergreen, deciduous, tropical, etc? 9 times out of 10 I spend the majority of my efforts using the search function for specific species, not that it's a problem, but it could be a little more user friendly for specifics.

Please go to BonsaiNut.Com to see why that is not a good idea. They have ,forums for everything you can think of and some you shouldn't.

And for the forums they shouldn't have is the reason I left the site; they take it a bit too far.

[coh]

Please remember that the people who manage this list:
1. Don't get paid.
2. Have some experience.

One constant issue is new members posting in the wrong place for what THEY need. The more sections you have the more opportunity for those errors, which, if they get relocated must be done by one of the list managers, who don't get paid.

Sure, but...should this be the limiting factor to making the site work better? Really, how difficult is it to move a thread from one forum to another?

The forum could designate a new "moderator" or two to oversee this aspect of the forum. After all, you really don't need 30 years of bonsai experience to know that certain threads (such as, "look at my new stick in a pot, what do I do with it") should be moved to a different forum.

And yes, moving threads may offend some people. But it's pretty obvious that the current system is also offending some people. Never will be able to satisfy everyone.

Please go to BonsaiNut.Com to see why that is not a good idea. They have ,forums for everything you can think of and some you shouldn't.

BonsaiNut has taken the idea to an extreme. One would think (hope) that a happy median could be found...

[JimLewis]

Sure, but...should this be the limiting factor to making the site work better? Really, how difficult is it to move a thread from one forum to another?

It's not particularly difficult, but PLEASE don't assume (or even request) that a moderator be on duty at all times. Often, by the time we've seen a problem, half the board has seen it first, and half of THEM are pissed and sending us messages.

[marcus watts]

I wont bother with a huge quote box but an earlier post suggested all the experienced posters are only doing so to pop a little advert for their own sites and blogs at the bottom...

speaking personally the links to the sites and blogs are there to offer more than the forum alone can, not as a replacer or to fuel its demise - several of us wanted a better gallery feature to showcase our personal trees -the forum cant offer it so a link to a personally hosted site sorts out that. Many of us may have a long, intricate story of a tree that does not need to take up pages of monologue here - a simple link to a web page sorts it out. The blog is a way to express yourself however you want, and again is a better home for topics that have been done to death on the forum by others that have come before. All these links keep the board tidier and more intersting, leaving more room for Dario to try and add to every topic on every page lol

There are a few who are charging money, making a living etc from their work and they may be using the forum to help their income by posting to get their links seen - especially when the exact same tree, story and pictures are put on here, facebook and a blog on the same day ! - and maybe even on another forum too.

Generally I think subtleness gets better results, but it is everyones free choice to market themselves how they see fit. - Once we launch the new fertilizer range and the awesome fully soluble powdered fish emulsion powder that may change !!

cheers Marcus

[Mike Jones]

I second your call for a new area and really hope the forum listens and acts this time. Maybe some of the experienced writers will be happy to add to general threads then rather than just their own.

good idea

Marcus

edit....if the forum has lost many experienced long standing people where have they gone? the other sites i've found are very poor in comparison to this one - or cover too narrow a topic to be somewhere interesting to learn from

I said to myself No-no-no-no I will not respond or say anything; I can sit on my fingers! But ... Where have they gone? Just given up in total despair I suspect; and share their frustrations behind the scenes. It would seem a well documented phenomenon that many many many forums have been 'taken down' by an absolute handful of members over the years.

I too think this is an excellent idea; and a step perhaps too far from me, but hey ho whatever ... may I respectfully propose that the egotistical know-alls stay well away from it? Thus ensuring its on-going success!

[marcus watts]

I said to myself No-no-no-no I will not respond or say anything; I can sit on my fingers! But ... Where have they gone? Just given up in total despair I suspect; and share their frustrations behind the scenes. It would seem a well documented phenomenon that many many many forums have been 'taken down' by an absolute handful of members over the years.

I too think this is an excellent idea; and a step perhaps too far from me, but hey ho whatever ... may I respectfully propose that the egotistical know-alls stay well away from it? Thus ensuring its on-going success!

haha, drew you out.............., and glad I did as you make a very good point....yes, i can see that as people progress in a hobby their need for more challenging and in depth discussion increases in the same way their desire for more challenging material grows. For any forum to not see this need and cater for it will result in the experienced individuals chatting to each other privately. This is a loss to every member as lots can be learnt from just reading a good thread or topic while digesting it quietly .

Egotistical wannabees are easy to shoot down in flames though if they pop up in a 'mature' section as the weight of true experience and knowledge will soon expose them as spouters of 2nd hand information gained online, or just someone trying to sell themselves. I think a little bluntness could be used if needed too - if you get fed up with a pratt openly ask in the tread to see a few pictures of their work on the subject at hand.......they'll get the message soon enough

cheers Marcus

[Poink88]

I wont bother with a huge quote box but an earlier post suggested all the experienced posters are only doing so to pop a little advert for their own sites and blogs at the bottom...

I did say I did not agree with it all LOL. But the point is that Blogs did replace some of the forum activity. Case in point, I recently asked a person (through PM) for his input on a technique we were discussing. He politely answered that he cannot anymore because he discussed everything in his blog.

All these links keep the board tidier and more intersting, leaving more room for Dario to try and add to every topic on every page lol

...as lots can be learnt from just reading a good thread or topic while digesting it quietly .

Oy!!! You've been ribbing me my friend!!! It is okay, it is the truth LOL.

[coh]

Sure, but...should this be the limiting factor to making the site work better? Really, how difficult is it to move a thread from one forum to another?

It's not particularly difficult, but PLEASE don't assume (or even request) that a moderator be on duty at all times. Often, by the time we've seen a problem, half the board has seen it first, and half of THEM are pissed and sending us messages.

Come on, Jim...NOWHERE did I state or imply that a moderator should be "on duty" at all times. Clearly anyone who would expect that is being unreasonable.

Look, people will get upset and get their feelings hurt for all kinds of reasons, and you'll never be able to completely eliminate that. Even if there was always a moderator "on duty", they'd first have to identify the post to be moved, then actually move it. Unless that happens instantaneously, someone is bound to see it and complain. But, if we had another appropriate subforum or two, at least some of the "fluff" could be moved out of the main bonsai forum. I think it's worth serious consideration...and if it doesn't work, just go back to the way it was (is).

[marcus watts]

I did say I did not agree with it all LOL. But the point is that Blogs did replace some of the forum activity. Case in point, I recently asked a person (through PM) for his input on a technique we were discussing. He politely answered that he cannot anymore because he discussed everything in his blog.

mmmmmmm, strange response for someone to refuse to help you openly, especially after a discussion ! ......Now I dont know who the indiviadual is so may put my foot well and truely in it, but a response like that to a request for help would make me feel they were 100% in the egotistical up their own backside camp. It certainly gives me an image of a flat palm in the face..........."talk to the hand, via the blog!!". I did say a small number use the blog link to further their little tree careers, and this may be one of the wannabe pack, or maybe just someone a bit fed up with the forum which makes you wonder why they come on in the first place.

Oy!!! You've been ribbing me my friend!!! It is okay, it is the truth LOL.

Yes I was, but I did it with a smile, and i'd guessed you would accept it the same way. cheers

Best regards Marcus (did you ever get the answer to the technique you wanted to know about)

[fiona]

I think it's worth serious consideration...and if it doesn't work, just go back to the way it was (is).

Just a short update: I have for my sins volunteered to take soundings from the forum members and put a proposal to the other moderators. I would suggest that rather than start a new thread, members just continue to make their suggestions on this one as already some good points have been raised.

I can't make any promises as to the outcome but the desire for a better structuring if the forum seems genuine and well-intentioned.

Please keep your positive suggestions coming, especially those relating to differentiating between beginners and "advanced" input. If you don't wish to make comments on the open forum, please send me a PM with your suggestions.

Fiona

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