Posting & Membership

Well hot dang....This turned spicy in a moment.

I wonder how many of those silent posters are looking at our topics and not replying. I know Dario's posts had gone to 300-400 views with no responses and I personally remember looking at some of them and not responding. At the time I thought about typing something non related just to bring the topic more current for others to see as well, but didn't.

I'll tell you why. I consider myself a newbie as well and I'm a man who knows what he knows and is studying on what he doesn't know, I try to not say too much unless I'm certain. Maybe the drifters are driving up the hits on topics but are not responding, possibly leaving the poster frustrated.

I agree with Marcus, maybe we need an advanced area. Some of the people that post on this forum are awesome and for fear of sounding like a major BROWN NOSER, I'll leave the names out.

As members we're lucky to be witnesses to some world class trees that get posted here, so I can see why there are quite a few non-posters. Maybe one day they'll have something to say and we'll be pleasantly surprised, until then, as the French say, C'est La vie.

As far as when have newbies earned their right to speak; I find this question and anyone's view who thinks that they don't have a right to speak, RIDICULOUS.

Have a great week everyone!!!!
Sam

Poink88 wrote:I got a PM answer re: this question. When do you think "newbies" earn their right to speak?

and the answer is......

When they can show that they know what they are talking about in the trees they produce. Or, when they can clearly show that they have credentials -- education or YEARS of experience -- in other areas, such as fertilizers, pesticides, insects and diseases, etc.

A little knowledge is a dangerous -- and off putting -- thing.

=============================================

I say bull and if it is what the forum stands for, I guess I (and all newbies) should shut up contrary to what this thread was trying to promote.

Just to be clear this is not my response...

But...I will pose this question...when do you want a newbie answering questions about your trees?

jgeanangel wrote:
But...I will pose this question...when do you want a newbie answering questions about your trees?

As I told you in a PM. I don't care who answers. I choose what/whose advise I will follow.

Right or wrong, I want everyone to have a voice and if they are mistaken, hopefully someone (like you) would set them right.

Poink88 wrote:I got a PM answer re: this question. When do you think "newbies" earn their right to speak?

and the answer is......

When they can show that they know what they are talking about in the trees they produce. Or, when they can clearly show that they have credentials -- education or YEARS of experience -- in other areas, such as fertilizers, pesticides, insects and diseases, etc.

A little knowledge is a dangerous -- and off putting -- thing.

There is a fine line of middle ground to tread here though...........

You do need practical experience in the methods required to keep and maintain bonsai to be able to give proven advice...if any individual has never perfected a technique or proven a theory, method or recipe on their own trees they should not really use their lack of practical experience to answer someone elses question (asking the questions is the obvious route I would have thought) - people newcomers to the hobby may damage or even kill their own trees by trusting or believing written advice from unknown or unproven sources.

Its why the gallery (or links to gallery page) will be a good feature if it ever comes off, at least at the click of a button you can see if the talker of the talk can walk the walk....

cheers marcus

OK, I started something again.
As to "newbies" posting. There are members who may be new to bonsai but have experience with specific species and will be able to contribute.

Whoa, whoa . . . Yes, we have a few newcomers to the sport of bonsai who seem to take up an inordinate amount of the discussion with little real benefit to the rest of us, but on the other hand, we have many too few people who seem willing to answer the questions of those who are new to bonsai and know it. We also have a large number of people who seem only to want to show their fine works. I enjoy looking at these, too, but I do wish more of them folks would hold out a helping hand occasionally.

Unfortunately, the Internet tends to pander to those who want things handed to them, rather than doing as much of the research as they can first -- and THEN asking for guidance. Back in the day, we either read a lot of books and got ourselves slowly -- and often poorly and mistakenly -- self started, or we joined a local club (if available) and we attended bonsai conventions and took workshops and took in demonstrations by local, or sometimes regional "experts." (Today's conventions -- many of them -- have international names as guest experts, but unfortunately, they also have priced themselves out of the reach of many of the younger, would-be bonsaiests, so are of little help to increasing our gene pool.)

Anyway, thanks to all who DO try to help the neophytes. With groveling apologies to all those I miss from my off-the-top recall (increasingly faulty as the years pass), thanks to John, John, Fiona, Kev, David, Will, and Iris and Billy (who've been doing it as long as anyone), Russell, Marcus, Bob, Rob, Tim, Todd, Tom, and of course, William and Peter. Don't stop.

Please!

Wow this post could get really HOT so lets keep it civil.

The best advice I can give is... look at the trees of the folk who are offering help... are they healthy? Then trust their horticultural advice, are they styled well, trust their skill as an artist... both, then wash their pots at their feet and listen.

JimLewis wrote:Anyway, thanks to all who DO try to help the neophytes. With groveling apologies to all those I miss from my off-the-top recall (increasingly faulty as the years pass), thanks to John, John, Fiona, Kev, David, Will, and Iris and Billy (who've been doing it as long as anyone), Russell, Marcus, Bob, Rob, Tim, Todd, Tom, and of course, William and Peter. Don't stop. Please!

I'd like to add Jim Lewis to that list.
~Sam

Too many names to mention but I'd also add Robert Stevens, Marijah, Walter Pall, Sebastijan etc. who may not be posting much here but have tons of info shared in their blogs, etc.

Well, there is another thing to remember here. Im going a bit more to the original topic here, and come with a response to why there might be so many lurkers here. We have people from all over the world. There might be language difficulties. There might be those who like to watch others trees and dont have a chance to go to shows. And there might be those with species and habitat that doesnt seem like others.
I live in Norway. I dont see many others from here posting. I know there are a few from Denmark, but that also differs.
I dont live close to any shows. I have to go to other countries to see them. Many like myself cant afford that and dont have any ways to join a club.
What I learn is what I see and read on the web. But most of it is learned by my own mistakes. I was pretty active in the start but I know I have absolutely nothing to contribute with other than saying "Nice tree" or "fantastic result". Thats why I post things I know a bit more about.
How could I help someone with a design on trees that Ive never seen in person? Not even the species, ever.

And, we dont know what happens in Pm's. People here might send a ton of pm's to eachother without engaging others in a thread.
I dont send many, and I hardly write here. But im here many times a day and read on topics.

tony wrote:Wow this post could get really HOT so lets keep it civil.

The best advice I can give is... look at the trees of the folk who are offering help... are they healthy? Then trust their horticultural advice, are they styled well, trust their skill as an artist... both, then wash their pots at their feet and listen.

exaclty, well put....now then, I should book a flight to Jakarta to wash a few huge forest planting pots..........

As Billy said everyone, even the owner of one single small elm, could contribute to a relevant post, in the same way a research chemist could share technical advice in their specialist field even if they have never wired or repotted a tree....its about being a good listener (reader) when its your time to learn, and being a good writer when the subject matter is something you have experience of.

Marcus

Poink88 wrote:

jgeanangel wrote:
But...I will pose this question...when do you want a newbie answering questions about your trees?

As I told you in a PM. I don't care who answers. I choose what/whose advise I will follow.

Right or wrong, I want everyone to have a voice and if they are mistaken, hopefully someone (like you) would set them right.

First...if you are truly new to the hobby how do you know whose advice to follow and whose to ignore???? Did you happen to see the post Ryan made about trunk chopping(excuse me Bill:))drastically reducing a trident maple...maybe 5 or 6 pages of advice most from those with little or no experience??? Whose advice to you choose?

Second, in spite of my earlier joke about muzzling(in bad taste I am sure), I am not interested in denying anyone's voice...and that is sooo not my point. But, as Marcus mentioned, I just wish the people with no experience, other than what they have read some place, watched in a demo, or had a conversation about, would choose to keep their opinions to themselves or at least qualify their responses.

I spent a couple days last week watching Kathy Shaner do grafts...several different kinds...but I only watched, no hands on...Now, I can describe in detail the process, and I feel ready to try it myself, but I have zero practical experience... If someone posted a question about grafting I would never answer it simply because I lack the practical, hands-on, and successful experience to make my advice valuable. In the future, after I have successfully grafted a few things, I might consider answering a question about grafting...but never until I have some practical experience. From my perspective, to do otherwise is waste of everyone's time!

John

John,

It is your style and personality. I won't try to change it...likewise, I hope you can respect that others operate differently from you.

I analyze things and sound off...that is partly how I learn. I do qualify my response most of the time. I was called an idiot on a PM today. I may as well be since I am stubborn this way.

After 900 some odd posts I find more and more of my forum communications with regards to both questions asked and advice given are taking place over PM. I feel less and less like educating or sharing what I have found to be successful on the open forum. The members who know me know why that is. The fact that there are so many registered members who do not post on the open forum is not surprising to me at all.
-Jay

I don't post much. I've come here since 2006 to read and learn but it took several years before I even registered because I finally felt I had something to post. 6 years into bonsai and I still don't feel I'm ready to give advise on much more than creating ramification on ficus benjamina or a long list of things you shouldn't do. I've got a bonsai blog non the less. I think that's the problem here, on a forum, you start a new topic eiter for asking a question or to show something you have done. Lots of the "masters" are moving over to posting on their blogs. Walter Pall dissapeared from the forums when he started his. Anyone seen Tickle or Baddeley much here lately?
If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

Ingvar,

Interesting observation and I believe you are into something.

I just pray you are mistaken about high level discussions being over in forums. That would be sad.

If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

If that's true, it's a sad day. Blogs are a damned poor (and very awkward) way to learn bonsai. Of course if all you want to do is look at pretty pictures and "listen" to pontification . . . . .

And WHO has the time to find and read all those blogs (gawdawful word!)? I'm retired, and I don't.

JimLewis wrote:

If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

If that's true, it's a sad day. Blogs are a damned poor (and very awkward) way to learn bonsai. Of course if all you want to do is look at pretty pictures and "listen" to pontification . . . . .

And WHO has the time to find and read all those blogs (gawdawful word!)? I'm retired, and I don't.

Jim, I think it's more of a double-edge blade. I keep a favorites list of blog sites simply because it's just another avenue for information. Granted, some blogs are a waste and yet some others provide incredibly interesting and helpful stories and progressions, you just have to sift through and pick. And yeah, it can be a ton of reading and translating; it's just what we're faced with as far as information goes.

As far as expert posters? Even with the ones who may have left, this is still an excellent forum with more than enough expertise to satisfy most questions, concerns and critiques. In short, you can generally get a sound answer to most any query.

John

What the heck has 'retired' got to do with the price of fish-n-chips on a rainy evening in Margate???

Methinks; that is me myself personally; think that thee 'Bonsai-ists,' take theeself far too seriously and forget to enjoy what you / thee/ they do

I apologise for spelling mistakes, incorrect puntureation, rong gammer, use of sense of humour; noun imperfection, and so on.

I also frequent a few blogs and agree that it is another learning venue. It is not for everyone but I learn faster with (before and after) progressive pics. I normally don't read too long posts either.

My favorites are;
SandevBonsai
Walter Pall Bonsai Adventures
Animabonsai
Kaisenbonsai

I lurk most of the time, but I certainly try to jump in if I think I have some valuable info to contribute, but most of the time I just don't have anything to contribute. I believe Bonsai as a hobby generally tends to appeal to introverted (and interesting) personality types. And, I am sure I am not alone in considering myself fiercely independent as well as non-conformist. This can lend itself to some friction in social situations as well as during the exchange of ideas an knowledge(like on this forum). We should all keep this in mind and just try not take anything personal. Some Bonsai people are just a bit weird, but that is part of the fun.

I often find myself in an odd spot as an intermediate to beginner skill level. No-one seems particularly drawn to the material that I post, so it hard to get questions answered or styling suggestions. As my horticultural skills improve I hope that my material will also improve, so maybe this will resolve itself soon. In the meantime I am happy to mostly lurk and assimilate knowledge even if I sometimes have to answer my own questions through trial and error.

I would however vote for shaking up topic categories a little. I am just brain storming here, but I think it would be interesting to separate posts that had no initial image associated with them. This would group a lot of the most beginner questions. "Bonsai" or "Questions" as topic categories are too general to me. I think that these could be broken up into

Identification
Virtuals and Styling Q&A
Progressions


Just my humble opinions,
David

What the heck has 'retired' got to do with the price of fish-n-chips on a rainy evening in Margate???

Ask me again when you are retired.

JimLewis wrote:

What the heck has 'retired' got to do with the price of fish-n-chips on a rainy evening in Margate???

Ask me again when you are retired.

Third year into retirement … NEXT?

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I say bull and if it is what the forum stands for, I guess I (and all newbies) should shut up contrary to what this thread was trying to promote.

When I started this I wasn't trying to promote anything. I am a retired historian and tend to observe and comment on things that seem interesting.

As to who should post, I am a firm believer that we learn more from mistakes that we do successes. Even misinformation on the forum, if corrected, is a learning experience for everyone.

I also think that one of marks of a learned person is the ability to evaluate information.

I thought the thread is about encouraging others to post thus my post. If I am mistaken then sorry.

I agree with what you said 100%.

What was that saying again "Give a hungry person fish and he will eat once...teach him how to fish and he will eat forever."?