If video killed the radio star, will the Internet be the death of bonsai?

If “Video killed the radio star”, will the internet be the death of bonsai? For all you pop pickers out there it was “The Buggles” in September 1989, who recorded the song, their UK one hit wonder.
Seriously, in this electronic age does the internet do more harm than good?

With the quality of photo reportage of bonsai shows now higher and easier than ever before to share with a wide audience, numbers of attendees are falling. Certainly trees are more commonly seen and their development is revealed in a format which does not require some students to even get off the seats in front of their computers.
So why go to a show, other than to socialise or buy goods from dealers, most of whom have internet mail order sites. Certainly with some of the shows, as I alluded to in another thread (Japanese Trees), it’s the same trees hawked around from venue to venue which increases the appeal of on-line viewing.
Similarly, society memberships are falling. Why leave the comfort of your own home when all you have to do is press a button on your computer? I know in some cases it's because the same hackneyed demonstrator is wheeled out year after year to thrill the ‘Ladies of the front row’, who gasp in horror, as he slices off a large branch! In some cases the wrong branch, but always with ‘exspurt’ ability and panache. But the importance of society membership is that there will be someone who is experienced and physically able to see your tree there and then and help rather than guessing about it in cyber-space

Then there is the question of the internet’s reliability regarding some of the statements and advice offered by some people who regard themselves as knowledgeable. The internet should be a mind of information, but has on occasions become a minefield of misinformation, where people have posted comments on trees or plants that not only have they not had any experience with, but, in all probability never ever seen! Unfortunately,I have witnessed this here on this forum.
Sometimes there seems to be little regard given to a writers geographical location or the climate in that location, so long as the respondent can post something to “get his name in lights”.
Where such ‘advice‘ is given leading to the demise of a tree, especially when it is owned by a beginner, it could lead to the owner of that tree deciding to give up on bonsai all together.
Sometimes, its all too ‘Chummy‘ with backslapping aplenty, applauding trees which are little more than ‘sticks in pots’ instead of considered objective criticism. I must admit to being remindedof the story of the ‘Kings new clothes‘ by Hans Christian Anderson on occasion.
Then again, I am surprised that there are not more rotational cuff injuries leading to ‘Frozen shoulder’ syndrome with some of the self administered back slapping that goes on, sufferers being easily recognised by having their arm in a sling behind their back......

Opinions, if differing from those of the “Illuminati” of the forum in question, are posted, there is a tendency for the unfortunate poster to be shouted down or derided. In fact sometimes there appears to be a climate that it is wrong to have a contra opinion or to respond to a personal attack, sometimes leading to over moderation.

Perhaps there is a case to be pleaded for forums for particular geographical locations, similar to the recently formed Cyprus bonsai forum. At least then, the information would hopefully be current, accurate and relevant to its members.

This is a serious subject, that has bothered me for some time, if you are offended by these comments, are you guilty of some of the points raised?

Once again I have donned my stab-proof vest and will be keeping the security lights on tonight at home

Very good Dave, I'm with you.

Mick

Welllll,

I do like the internet as a source of information about specialist subjects. and certainly there is some value in online communities like this for exchanging ideas and learning from others. i work away from home most weeks so ive trained my wife to water. the internet vendors are great for me as i can get my pots and sundry materials without sacrificing a precious weekend on a nursery trip.

on the internet - as you point out - one needs to be connected with the “Illuminati” to get serious answers - then again the local societies also have a distinct hierarchy in them and can be very cold to newcomers. they all seem to have some chequebook bonsai experts members ( who have all the work done by thier pet nursery ) who waft about imperiously and see newcomers off quickly with their disdainful glances at our inferior efforts. if they want to increase numbers attending local clubs they need to warm up a little - perhaps even stretching as far as greeting the new person - otherwise they will turn to the internet.

I feel it does a lot of harm with people beginning to believe in instant gratification. I detest demo video's. Most "styling" video's are nonsense as well. i suppose they are entertaining to watch - but dont teach anything. some person mumbles a bit incoherantly and then gets out the powertools to the applause of the audience.

a lot of these online trees are styled by numbers. they say nothing of who made them or where they are from ( see japanese thread ). Certainly a generic juniper with generic puffball foliage pads is all but irrelevant to someone like me who lives in southeast England - unless i am inspired by the topiary in some front yards. i suppose its the homogenising effect of the global community making us all do things the same way. perhaps a lack of imagination or the inability to look out the window. I greatly admire what the Japanese have done with bonsai - but im not japanese / i dont speak japanese / ive never been to japan - but i leverage thier years of practise and expertise to make something that belongs where it is.

then again - i do enjoy a lot of the blogs out there - some talented people sharing thier progress and knowledge. some of the highend shows give some inspiration and guidance as to what is possible - if not attainable.

folks seem to be loosing sight of what bonsai is. its not about doing anything quickly. masses of patience and time are required. a love of trees and landscape. horticulture. hopefully inspired by somethign other than the karate kid.

Dave...I respectfully suspect that you may have misplaced your disdain. Perhaps the problems you bring to light are with people not the technology. The technology just makes the problems more visible...more apparent....people are people with or without the internet.

Furthermore, it could also easily be argued that the internet has vastly increased the exposure of bonsai to persons with a potential interest. It also provides a wealth of knowledge and experience from which individuals can filter for their own purpose and needs...yes, we do have to filter information just like we always have done when individuals are the source. From my perspective, the internet has been the single most important tool in the growth of bonsai globally over the last decade.

People with a passion are never going to be satisfied by pictures or words on a screen alone...they are going to seek personal interaction...I am not sure those not willing to do this are worth worrying about???

Perhaps the question should be "will some people always suck?" ...to which I think we all know the answer!!

respectfully,
John

jgeanangel wrote:Dave...I respectfully suspect that you may have misplaced your disdain. Perhaps the problems you bring to light are with people not the technology.

Well played sir. I concur.

Ed

It seems to me that you are beginning to understand the problem, the technology is the conduit for the problem.
Any one got another shilling for the electricity meter (a UK thing)

For me the technology is just an adjunct to the real thing. It can help fill in gaps and allows socialising and knowledge sharing across boundaries. I don't think I ever missed a meeting or a show because of this or any other forum. In fact I can state that without a shadow of a doubt, I would not have made many long and real friendships, met Billy Rhodes in Florida, found out about Japan Journeys and visited Kokofuten, gone to Burrs several times, visited many nurseries and developed quite a few new interests without the Internet.

It is what you make of it.

Kev Bailey wrote: ... I can state that without a shadow of a doubt, I would not have made many long and real friendships, met Billy Rhodes in Florida, found out about Japan Journeys and visited Kokofuten, gone to Burrs several times, visited many nurseries and developed quite a few new interests without the Internet.

Now if I could get internet to go out there and cut my pine candles, life would be perfect...

Its just so much easier to sit here and talk to you guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd_pU80mGXk

fiona wrote: to quote Mr Shakespeare "a tale told by an idiot,full of sound and fury and signifying nothing."

Well we seem to have had a surfeit of those recently.

My real point is directed to some of the outlandish commenting that has been done on forums where genuinely held opinions are subject to ridicule and which appears to have no purpose other than to embarrass, the ridicule that is, that is the hidden danger of the internet forum.

In daily life, we must learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. This is even more important on the net where anyone can be an 'expert' with a few key strokes... cutting and pasting from the collective 'wisdom' of the internet into their minds without the benefit of experience and critical thinking.

Well, I agree and disagree with you, sir. I, as a beginner, may be guilty of giving "bad" advice here from time to time. However, it's not to have "my name in lights". I'm expirementing with different techniques and learning new things daily. So, when I suggest something here I also appreciate the more experienced members responding and saying whether or not my "ideas" are reasonable or not. I'm not aware of everything that works or doesn't, and I don't assume any of you know everything either. What if I don't want a "Japanese" bonsai??? What if I dont want a "Chinese" bonsai??? What if I just want to grow small trees in small pots, should I (or any other beginner) be looked down upon for this???? I think that this is a place for ideas to flow freely, right or wrong. So long as things such as location and climate are considered, I don't really see how any advice is right or wrong... So, something somebody here said led to a wrong branch being removed... Oh no Or perhaps a tree got killed OOOOhhhhhhh noooooooooo!!!!! It's really not the end of the world. Nor is it as serious as some of you make it out to be... A lot of bonsai "experts" here, and those I've met in real life need to get over themselves. Let beginners expirement and learn things from their mistakes. You say the death of a tree caused by bad advice from forums could turn beginners away from bonsai, well so can grumpy people who think everything's written in stone. I don't feel personally attacked by your comments, nor would I let it ruin my day even if I did. I just wanted to remind everybody why we're here... To learn and exchange information, and for that, this is a wonderful place. Let's not ruin it by running beginners off when they throw their two cents in, right or wrong (it inspires people to step in and give the "right" advice)... I was afraid to post on this forum for fear of this very thing happening. Let's not scare other newbies into sitting in the shadows because they think they'll be criticized for giving bad advice or asking stupid questions. Once that happens, this forum will become stagnant and irrelevant.

G

I don't want to come across as though I view this forum or it's members in a negative light (Personally, I have no qualms with anybody here). The statements I made above apply to "real life" bonsai clubs too. Hopefully nothing I've said has been taken to personally, I'd just like to see more people enjoy bonsai! It troubles me to think how many beginners have been turned away because (unlike me) they're intimidated by usually older, more knowledgeable people. That's it.

G

G, I think it is good that you have the confidence to speak your mind and I'm seeing nothing in what you said that shows deliberate offence or insult. Whether others may perceive it as so is another matter, and maybe just maybe a greater "fault" is that we all get a litle over-sensitive on here - I'll be the first to put my hands up to that.

As far as I can see you have done what the majority of newcomers have done - you have asked for advice, patiently listened to the responses, and then applied what John Q rightly refers to as critical thinking in how you can apply those suggestions in your own climate and on your own trees. That you feel comfortable enough to give other newcomers the benefit of that experience is good - sometimes us old-timers are too set in our ways and the viewpoint of a relative newcomer is often free from the "prejudice of time".

Keep doing what you do. You are the new breed of radio star.

fiona wrote:G, I think it is good that you have the confidence to speak your mind and I'm seeing nothing in what you said that shows deliberate offence or insult. Whether others may perceive it as so is another matter, and maybe just maybe a greater "fault" is that we all get a litle over-sensitive on here - I'll be the first to put my hands up to that.

As far as I can see you have done what the majority of newcomers have done - you have asked for advice, patiently listened to the responses, and then applied what John Q rightly refers to as critical thinking in how you can apply those suggestions in your own climate and on your own trees. That you feel comfortable enough to give other newcomers the benefit of that experience is good - sometimes us old-timers are too set in our ways and the viewpoint of a relative newcomer is often free from the "prejudice of time".

Keep doing what you do. You are the new breed of radio star.

Perfect!!

Gentleman G,

It seems to me that a lot of what you have said is in general agreement with my original posting.
Indeed there are a lot of exspurts and they do need to get over themselves and they are grumpy and that is exactly my point..One only has to read some of the threads to see the lack of respect shown in some cases.
These were the 'Illuminati' I was referring to 'tongue in cheek', not the real knowledgeable assets who are so necessary to all groups.

Dave,

The demise of ‘Clubs’ is down to the simple fact that they do not offer ‘serious’ beginners any real direction… the issue here is availability of information… and speed. I know you are not a Luddie and your concerns are understandable however… anyone who believes that they can ‘do’ Bonsai by simply reading books and surfing the web is sadly mistaken.

Trees are 3 dimensional, they must be viewed ‘in the flesh’ that’s why folk must go to exhibitions. How often have I overheard at exhibitions...”I have seen this tree on the web but its way better than I thought”

Thankfully in the UK we actually have some ‘Active’ clubs who do offer direction… Wirral and Teeside are two I know personally…

Suggested reading:Bowling alone

I agree 100 percent. It is really up to each individual person to interpret the info they have available. I've read some things on the internet that are downright hillarious, sometimes a bit disturbing. And don't get me started on "bonsai training videos" that teach you how to create "instant bonsai". If you have a local club and can join, do it (if you can stand it) . Even if you only go to one meeting, you may meet somebody there you can relate to and get along with. I, fortunately, enjoy going to club meetings and get along with my fellow members. I choose not involve myself in the politics and "inner workings" of the club, I'm just there to learn. In the end it all boils down to this... If a person is serious about bonsai and having great looking, long living trees, they'll be able to wade through the piles of nonsense that're out here and find genuinely helpful information as I have. It's not easy, and I read a lot of things written by people in entirely different zones than me who really didn't know what they were talking about. But eventually I stumbled across the IBC and found a treasure trove of GREAT information that covers the whole spectrum! Quite frequently I read articles about trees I know I can't grow here just because chances are there's something that I can apply to my growing collection. My point is, IBC is unfortunately not the first place most beginners end up. And if it is, I'd bet most of them are here for some time before they say anything. So, it's safe to say that most people who end up here can distinguish credible info from things that are probably harmful. My suggestion to other beginners echoes the sentiments of most experienced bonsaists: Read some books, join a club (or attend a meeting/meet someone else who KNOWS bonsai), learn how to recognize what information is useful to you, get some trees, and have some fun!

Gentleman G. wrote:I agree 100 percent. It is really up to each individual person to interpret the info they have available. I've read some things on the internet that are downright hillarious, sometimes a bit disturbing. And don't get me started on "bonsai training videos" that teach you how to create "instant bonsai". If you have a local club and can join, do it (if you can stand it) . Even if you only go to one meeting, you may meet somebody there you can relate to and get along with. I, fortunately, enjoy going to club meetings and get along with my fellow members. I choose not involve myself in the politics and "inner workings" of the club, I'm just there to learn. In the end it all boils down to this... If a person is serious about bonsai and having great looking, long living trees, they'll be able to wade through the piles of nonsense that're out here and find genuinely helpful information as I have. It's not easy, and I read a lot of things written by people in entirely different zones than me who really didn't know what they were talking about. But eventually I stumbled across the IBC and found a treasure trove of GREAT information that covers the whole spectrum! Quite frequently I read articles about trees I know I can't grow here just because chances are there's something that I can apply to my growing collection. My point is, IBC is unfortunately not the first place most beginners end up. And if it is, I'd bet most of them are here for some time before they say anything. So, it's safe to say that most people who end up here can distinguish credible info from things that are probably harmful. My suggestion to other beginners echoes the sentiments of most experienced bonsaists: Read some books, join a club (or attend a meeting/meet someone else who KNOWS bonsai), learn how to recognize what information is useful to you, get some trees, and have some fun!

Wow, GG, that's really great. I think you hit the nail on the head, especially the club part. I joined the bonsai club in the town where I grew up when I was 13. I can't even begin to imagine where I'd be today if it had not been for those wonderful people, and sadly I'm attending way too many funerals now. Needless to say, I saw lots of drama and politics growing up, but I stayed out of it because that's NOT what I was there for. My degree of involvement with a club is what I make of it, and my choice - just like the IBC. No one is holding a gun to my head, or anyone else's (I hope).

I will say that I'm surprised by the number of beginners that pop up and expect to be told how to "do" bonsai here, but have every reason in the world why they can't/won't seek out a local club. Makes no sense to me.

Anyway, sorry for the digression. Wonderful discussion, I enjoy reading everyone's "take" on Dave's thoughts.

This thread is very interesting.
For us (3 crazy fools and a couple of others on occasion), who are "isolated" in Cyprus, where no clubs, study groups, or specialized nurseries exist, except from books and experimentation, forums have contributed a lot to our learning.
We have managed to form a small, informal study group and we meet often, we collect trees together, share experiences and info and we enjoy it, without having to put up with club politics and personal egos.
On the other hand, it takes a lot of time, effort and money to visit bonsai exhibitions (we visited BoBB, this year). I wish we could have access to someone with more experience to teach us, but even in that case, it would cost us a lot, since we would have to fly him/her to Cyprus and we are very few.....

So, in cases like ours, the info discussed in forums is very important, but it must be filtered very carefully......

I really wish we had a club where someone could get help, but on the other hand when i think politics, conservatism, and rules, i prefer it this way.

tony wrote:Dave,

… anyone who believes that they can ‘do’ Bonsai by simply reading books and surfing the web is sadly mistaken.

Trees are 3 dimensional, they must be viewed ‘in the flesh’ that’s why folk must go to exhibitions. How often have I overheard at exhibitions...”I have seen this tree on the web but its way better than I thought”

Thankfully in the UK we actually have some ‘Active’ clubs who do offer direction… Wirral and Teeside are two I know personally…

Tony,
Again you are agreeing with one of my points, there is no substitute for face to face contact. You personally know the members of the Phoenix group, if many others did they would know that Phoenix contains some very talented bonsaiists most of whom do not feel the need to exhibit, in my opinion depriving others of some beautiful trees.
Certainly most clubs fail to cater for the more experienced in the hobby which is why groups such as Phoenix were formed. But the club scene is invaluable , except where it becomes a numbers game regarding membership numbers.

Perhaps I was too diplomatic in my initial thread so here it is straight from the shoulder,
There are people in internet forums who by their inability to accept that others are entitled to hold genuine beliefs contrary to theirs,
ridicule and rubbish those people IT IS THEM who through the web which will destroy bonsai.There are a number of people who are very competent and whom I hold in great esteem who are fed up with this. My comment to Gentleman G surely explains that.

Stavros, Yours is the way to go, you will always find knowledgeable people willing to assist you on the way forward as you have already done so.

Very interesting thread; local bonsai clubs are a microcosm of the internet bonsai society and the internet bonsai forums are a microcosm of society as a whole and how we interact with one another. As several have already stated in this thread, you have to sift the information and utilize what best applies to you the individual and your circumstances. It's a lot like practicing bonsai, when you see a defect you can either hide it, accentuate it, or cut it off. Personally, this is the best site I've been a member-three so far-simply because of the regional diversity. Yet, I can totally understand Mr. Martin's questions and concerns. There are some members on this site, as on others, that are total knobs irrespective of their actual or perceived expertise and knowledge. Why? Because some don't use their knowledge to teach, they use it to show off their knowingness, and there is a big difference. Unfortunately, the world is loaded with "bonsai masters" or however else they stylize themselves.

Orion,
Thank you for your candour, the trouble is and has always been 'Egos and Agendas'.

I prefer the use of 'exspurt' rather than 'master' to refer to those who believe their whole is greater than their sum.

Dave Martin wrote:Orion,
Thank you for your candour, the trouble is and has always been 'Egos and Agendas'.

I prefer the use of 'exspurt' rather than 'master' to refer to those who believe their whole is greater than their sum.

I kinda liked Orion's "total knobs" term!!

Russell,

That's not to say I didn't as well, but decorum prevented me from admitting it

IBC as of today has 3090 registered members... all who could... should they wish to... post here. In any group of this size you will have individuals that are Irresponsible, Over-confident, Bad tempered, Bossy, Annoying, have too much to say, Picky, Unreliable, Anti-social and in many cases downright rude! As Mods we endeavor to deal with them.

As for advice on the forum? There are enough registered members here who DO know what they are talking about, ARE willing to offer good advice and WILL challenge bad advice.

YOU as a reader must decide what advice you wish to follow

Caveat emptor?