Chamaecyparis and "back budding"

Rick Moquin Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:56 pm

IN order not to further hijack Justin's thread, I started this one.

Jay Gaydosh wrote:I have one Chamaecyparis. In reading up on the specifics on this tree I was puzzled to find Chamaecyparis is listed as not budding on old wood. The reason I'm puzzled is because Mine has budded on the main truck. Once up by the bottom 2 branches and one by the base of the trunk. Now I'm not one to argue with them what knows their trees better than moi... but I do remain puzzled!

as replied earlier...

<<Although certain Chamaecyparis cultivars will back bud on old wood, it is safer to say that none of them do. That way there we are not disappointed when they don't and just plain happy if they do. Having said that, the % is so small that it is negligible and hence why we can safely say that "Chamaecyparis" do not back bud on old wood.>>

As stated above Jay the small % makes it negligible. I have had similar occurrences as well, but...

As back budding is a process used for chasing foliage back closer to the trunk, through pruning etc... On many species this is more or less predictable, not so with Chamaecyparis. As mentioned I have had a sprout pop up every now and again out of the blue. This is also noticeable when we have acquired a tree from nursery stock where new branch-lets exists on the main trunk.

Why does this happen? God only knows. However, as previously stated when cultivating Chamaecyparis as bonsai, one should not count on them back budding in any styling decisions. Styling decisions should be well thought out as we cannot depend on growing a branch wherever we want down the road. Foliage is to be treated with respect and understanding how it develops of paramount importance, when compared with other trees that readily back bud on old wood.

Chamaecyparis will back bud on green wood (new wood). As soon as the branch-let barks up it is pretty much a lost cause. However, with careful and judicious pruning and thinning one can grow branches from the fan shaped foliage, and hence the foliage can be chased back to some extent. The following links might be helpful:

Taming the Hinoki and
Taming the Hinoki 201 (an addendum)

Rick Moquin Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:02 pm

Sprouting...

Because Hinokis are slow growers (relatively), new sprouts are all but useless on the main trunk but we should consider keeping sprouts on branches.

The reason I say to forget the ones that grow on the main trunk is: there development will never be proportional to the rest of the branches and will take 10-20 years to develop into the size of branches existing on the tree, with a further increase in girth of existing branches. Depending where these sprouts pop up, they may be valuable e.g higher up on the tree.

Jay Gaydosh Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:27 pm

Rick Moquin wrote:Although certain Chamaecyparis cultivars will back bud on old wood, it is safer to say that none of them do. That way there we are not disappointed when they don't and just plain happy if they do. Having said that, the % is so small that it is negligible and hence why we can safely say that "Chamaecyparis" do not back bud on old wood.>>[/i]

As stated above Jay the small % makes it negligible. I have had similar occurrences as well, but...

As back budding is a process used for chasing foliage back closer to the trunk, through pruning etc... On many species this is more or less predictable, not so with Chamaecyparis. As mentioned I have had a sprout pop up every now and again out of the blue. This is also noticeable when we have acquired a tree from nursery stock where new branch-lets exists on the main trunk.

Why does this happen? God only knows. However, as previously stated when cultivating Chamaecyparis as bonsai, one should not count on them back budding in any styling decisions. Styling decisions should be well thought out as we cannot depend on growing a branch wherever we want down the road. Foliage is to be treated with respect and understanding how it develops of paramount importance, when compared with other trees that readily back bud on old wood.

Chamaecyparis will back bud on green wood (new wood). As soon as the branch-let barks up it is pretty much a lost cause. However, with careful and judicious pruning and thinning one can grow branches from the fan shaped foliage, and hence the foliage can be chased back to some extent. The following links might be helpful:

Taming the Hinoki and
Taming the Hinoki 201 (an addendum)

OK, I've seen it and you say you've seen it. The percentage is getting bigger!

The fact is, we tend to paint ourselves into a corner with all of these "almost absolutes" until sometimes we refuse to try.

On the flip side of that, someone gave me two overgrown Ficus office plants. Some said pitch them, some said chop them back they will back bud all over the place. Others fell somewhere in the middle. One is back budding nicely, the other died.

At least I tried. And will continue to push the envelope to see where it takes me and figure out what I learned from the process.

At for the Chamaecyparis, as long as it survives the cold frame, I'll see where the backbuds take me without getting too caught up in absolutes, almost absolutes, sometimes absolutes and absolutely never absolutes!

Jay

Rick Moquin Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:36 pm

Jay,

A word of caution. I know you may not like absolute but you are going to have to trust me on this one. You may give it a whirl if you wish (your trees) but I will not partake in the experiment.

sitarbonsai Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:32 am

It was a good idea to start another thread. The other one was getting a bit off topic. Wink

Thanks,

Justin

littleart-fx Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:37 pm

Hi''all,

I own one and never experienced any backbudding what so ever, indeed it does on none wooded branches.
So in my case with continuous pruning all over and at strong regions the most i get my plateaus right filled and nice and green.
Love it, but a lot of work.
Them branches are hard to fixate also, it has taken and still is 4 years now!

Tried synthetic fertilizer on them, learned DON'T !!!
The will reward you for that and show it the same day as in turning none shiny any more, it did recover dough.
Thrown away all the bad fluids and only using biological these day's!!!

One question, i'd like to make a shari is this done in one time or should i do this in several stages as it tends to bleed a lot (white stuff)?

Any how thanx for the information so far!!!

grtzz machiel

Rick Moquin Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:53 pm

littleart-fx wrote:Hi''all,

Them branches are hard to fixate also, it has taken and still is 4 years now!

That's funny, the branches usually set within a year or two. I wire all my Hinokis in the fall prior to dormancy. I have come to find out I do not have to rewire mid season. It also gives the tree/branch a longer time to set. When the wire starts to cut in late July - August I just cut the wire(s) that is beginning to cut in and leave the remaining wire until they become offensive. If by fall rewiring, I still have old wire on the tree I make a judgment call whether to remove it or leave for the following season. Most of the time it gets removed.

Tried synthetic fertilizer on them, learned DON'T !!!
The will reward you for that and show it the same day as in turning none shiny any more, it did recover dough.
Thrown away all the bad fluids and only using biological these day's!!!

Was this a particular brand or all you have tried? I use chemical fertilizers exclusively without any problems.

One question, i'd like to make a shari is this done in one time or should i do this in several stages as it tends to bleed a lot (white stuff)?

It can be done in one go. You are going to have to explain white stuff as I have not witnessed this.

Any how thanx for the information so far!!!

You are welcome.

grtzz machiel[/quote]

littleart-fx Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:56 pm

Rick, the vertilizer i use is called miracle grow 12-4-8 and it comes with element iron and a whole lot of other stuff in it.

The reason i tried it is because off a nice offer at the garden center, it is packed with a garden soft shower head, the bottle gets screwed on
that.
Seemed handy to me, now i refill with biological subtracted water.

The white stuff i mentioned is when you cut a branch off the tree starts to bleed (hars in dutch) when it dries it gets white with a hinoki.

The fixating bended some thick branches but also the small ones seem hard to fixate.

Thanx for the quick answer! again

Wil start on the tree next week since its inside,.....or should i wait for it to get awake from winter?

grtzz machiel

Rick Moquin Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:15 pm

Machiel,

I'm still not sure about your fertilizer problem. I use a lot higher concentration than what you have used without any ill effects.

What are the temperatures like in Holland? Moving your tree in and out of dormancy is not really a good thing.

In my neck of the woods I work on trees in January in an unheated garage for about 1-1 1/2 hr at a time. I do not want to expose the roots to freeze and thaw. All my trees are presently frozen and wintered away.

Wiring can be done at this time of year as well, once again depending on temps.

The branch-lets do take some time to set up if they are not "totally woody"

littleart-fx Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:19 pm

Not to worry, my tree is at a constant temprature of 6/8 degrees c i will take it out or in when temperatures level.

the tree and me in first stage (2006):

Chamaecyparis and "back budding" Pict0012

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