Austrian Pine styling question

I have had this tree for 10 to 15 years in a 10 gallon container.
It has been repotted several times, the last time was in 2008.
The tree is about 5 feet tall.
I am looking for a good way to style it.



I have thought of creating gin from the top down to the lowest branches.
Or creating a literati bonsai.

Any ideas appreciated.

Bob

Oh, dear. To tell you the truth, it doesn't look like a very good bonsai candidate. After ten years in that pot, trying to wrestle it into any kind of a bonsai pot, even a training box, might kill it. Cutting it back to a manageable height would leave you with a severe discrepancy in trunk thickness. I suggest you plant it in your yard & get yourself something more promising.
I am not a big pine expert, so maybe someone else would have a different opinion.
It is not difficult to post pictures so you can see them right here. Read the tutorial.
Iris

This tree has been repotted 3 or 4 times. The last time was 18 months ago.
I have several bonsai at this time. Repotting into a bonsai container ill not be a problem. I want to try something different with this tree.

bob

I'd reduce it to the first whorl and keep only 2 branches, one to wire up for the new leader and the other for branch no 1. Then put into a large grow box or the ground for a few more years.

Possibly the biggest problem you will have is the fact that the tree has done that pine thing and pushed the growth out to the end of shoots. To allow it even to start to make the journey from garden tree to bonsai, you'd have to encourage it to bud back nearer the trunk.

I don't think yours is a dead in the water tree by any stretch, but to get it anywhere you would have to wait a long time. I have a similar project on the go just now with a 4ft high White Pine I found lurking in a tree nursery. As it cost very little my friend Len and I decided to use it as an experiment in trunk bending, the initial stages of which you can find HERE (pages 7,8,9 - Bend Me, Shape Me... article) if you're interested. But note that was in March 2008 and the tree is still 5 years at the very least away from being anything. Nor will it ever be a show stopper.

Any chance of taking some more pics, maybe a bit closer in so we can see the current growth and so we can get a better idea of girth of trunk etc. As Iris says, it's as easy to post pics on here as it is to post links.

The base, first view.


A second view.


Some of the smaller branches near the bottom.

I agree with kevin. Chop back to the first whorl of branches and use one as a leader and another as first branch then focus on letting the tree regain strength and work on trying to get it to back bud. Another option is to keep this in mind for a future for the tree and try to graft foliage closer to the base on the branches you intend to keep after the chop so you will be ahead of the game once the chop is made. I am a little biased though I like short fat trunked trees

I have tried grafting several times. Never had any luck.
If I do a trunk chop, should I cut at a steep angle, and create shari on one side.
I don't like a chop that leaves a stump on the top.
I would like jin or shari.

A shari for the sake of having a shari would, IMHO, ruin that lovely bark. I've always felt sharis on pines in general should be very minimal. Same with a jin on that particular tree - again IMHO.

what's a whorl?

A whorl is common in Pines. A number of branches at the same place around the trunk. Like a spokewheel.

will baddeley wrote:A whorl is common in Pines. A number of branches at the same place around the trunk. Like a spokewheel.

ah, got one of those on a larch I bought at the weekend.

The way that conifers, including Larch grow, often leads to an annual whorl of branches. If left, there may be five or more and they will eventually lead to an ugly thickening of the trunk at that point, so we usually remove most of them.

bobby little wrote:what's a whorl?

Branches growing like spokes on a wheel end up giving you a whorl lot of problems.

JimLewis wrote: Branches growing like spokes on a wheel end up giving you a whorl lot of problems.

That's wheely good, Jim.

I'm sure glad you spoke up Jim

reseele wrote:I'm sure glad you spoke up Jim

we're gonna get tyred of this wheely fast.

I'm SORRY! I won't do it again.

I had an Austrian Pine with the same problem. I tipped the leggy branches to where the older growth had about two inches of old needles. I tipped the broke candles on branches closer to the base. Then, to my surprise it back budded a ton. And even more surprising is that I have new buds forming on the actual trunk, budding out from underneath bark cracks. If it continues to develop I will be patient, because this might cure my spacing problem caused by the whorls of branches.

Maybe that might work for you too? Cut at the second whorl of branches to see if you get back budding...

Has anyone else seen back budding as far back as onto the trunk? I've been keeping an eye on them and they're developing nicely. If you want I can post a couple pictures?

I had that exact thing happen two weeks before the poor bastard had a massive heart attack and turned brown. Maybe mist the foliage and keep a close eye one it.

Kev Bailey wrote:The way that conifers, including Larch grow, often leads to an annual whorl of branches. If left, there may be five or more and they will eventually lead to an ugly thickening of the trunk at that point, so we usually remove most of them.

Hi Kev, Will…….just for clarification and interest sake ….generally speaking (from my exposure to conifers around here) the whorl is associated with conifers that have determinant buds (Pines, Larches, Douglas-fir, spruce etc – a pre-determined distinctive annual growth pattern) as compared to in-determinant species such as Cedars(western Red and Alaskan), hemlocks etc….
Cheers

Hello Gman. Pines are concidered a pioneer species with good germination rates and seed dispersal. I would say that the spokewheel feature of Pines and other conifers, are a juvenile habit. Rapid apical growth and side branching are important in a trees survival in open spaces. Once the tree is established the spokewheel feature isn't needed anymore unless damaged.

gax wrote:I had an Austrian Pine with the same problem.
If you want I can post a couple pictures?

I would like to see pictures of your tree.

Here's a picture of the back budding I saw on the trunk. The tree was about three feet tall, I tipped some of the newer growth (experimenting) and saw this response.

This you can do today. And then you can wire in spring and try to make this look like a real pine tree - not like a bonsai. It does not have much talent for bonsai, but can make a decent pine.