American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Hmm, you know since I started reading on this topic, my head has been filled with many thoughts and memories.

Firstly, I don't take this Naturalist stuff seriously, since no one seems to be really studying trees and applying the information to
primary efforts - seeds or cuttings.

Lots of fine talk, but no real examples from the talkers. Where are all these examples of naturally designed trees.

I am however seeing that old - collected tree - bit, and anyone with a good eye, lots of open land can - see - potential and later
top dress. The green hat special.
BUT where are the guys / gals who have studied trees intimately, drawings or clay sculpture or other ?

Listen to study craft, you have to start somewhere or just waste time trying to re-invent the wheel. So naturally your early efforts
will resemble oriental work.
As you push yourself it will change, but you have to have some training and some form of study.

As one of the early members of what was to become the Trinidad Bonsai Society, it was with anguish I watched others take large
old Buttonwoods out of nature. Almost all died.
Yards full of Skeletons.
I dropped out and spent my time taking seeds and seedlings or cuttings.

To be frank they were so ignorant of the plant, that when I went back to the seaside, I took a 4" thick branch, sawn off and
stuck it in a mix of gravel and manure. It grew.
I found the plant to be so visually boring, that a year later I re-planted it down at the seaside.
I realised that there was high ignorance to collecting and regenerating.

I am lucky, I am just 54, and genetically, barring accident or other I have about say 5o years more. Add that to my 35 or so years
of experience, I can grow my children into intense efforts.
No rush, no hurry.
So even though this a hobby, I will still do my best and with my brother-in-law [ and his mastery of Science ] will start work on
holograms.

BUT my personal philosophy is always going to be - the tree - is to power my imagination - which powers my ideas into image.

So could we please have some images of what you guys have grown, are not oriental influenced or if influenced how you went
on further.
Some indication that your Naturalistic style isn't just a found tree, with a hat ---------- anything that shows your personality
- please.

I would be happy to show you my Fustic [ Chlorophora tintoria ] and how I have so much to learn, experiment and hopefully
get somewhere.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Maybe some of the problem we are having is regional; trees in Pennsylvania look different from trees in Washington, Australia, Trinidad, etc.

Khaimraj, you are a wise person. But I have seen examples herein of trees that look real to me, in my opinion.

Dave,

you are most correct - tree shapes do vary- but they still have branches,roots,etc. also take general shapes of ovals, circles, mounds and so on.
In the Tropics on my side, there is great variety in exterior shapes and then more variation within those exterior shapes.

However, only so many will accept the bonsai training, and for us, it is - seemingly - mostly shrubs. Unfortunately, shrubs can be hedging
material, able to. be clipped into anything, within the laws of sunlight.
So you can grow shrub x in the style of tree y.
BUT I still have to start with Oriental rules - even if it is Directional Pruning [ grow and clip ] which historically is supposed to have been
a big change in China, since it gave more natural effects.

Now if I put that much effort into a given tree shape, and it holds for 3 weeks or so, and it took 5/10 years to get there.
Where is one going to keep getting the energy to keep that shape.
Or will I just adapt.

In adapting I find a simpler shape, that works, but it no longer looks natural ?

So I just relax and do what is easier on my nerves [ hence the use of a Hologram to record the prime effort ]

I am afraid this is how I settled it by the way - it looks treeish and I can sleep peacefully at night.
There is also the thickening effect throwing off your negative spaces, positive spaces and height, width increase........................
[ arrgh pulls out hairs ]

Perhaps, some efforts started off Natural looking and just evolved.
I am very glad I am an Oil Painter, who can make Jewellery and Pottery/Sculpture, writes in books and has a fairly concrete
stable world, as a Professional Bonsaist, I think I would have gone made
Laters.
Khaimraj

Khamraj...your dissertations here remind me of this guy that I use to follow in the 1960's, he could talk and explain for hours but in reality he never made a point or went anywhere in a conclusive manner, just talk, talk, talk....

I enjoy your talking so keep it going...

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hmm, you know since I started reading on this topic, my head has been filled with many thoughts and memories.

Firstly, I don't take this Naturalist stuff seriously, since no one seems to be really studying trees and applying the information to
primary efforts - seeds or cuttings.

Lots of fine talk, but no real examples from the talkers. Where are all these examples of naturally designed trees.

I am however seeing that old - collected tree - bit, and anyone with a good eye, lots of open land can - see - potential and later
top dress. The green hat special.
BUT where are the guys / gals who have studied trees intimately, drawings or clay sculpture or other ?

Listen to study craft, you have to start somewhere or just waste time trying to re-invent the wheel. So naturally your early efforts
will resemble oriental work.
As you push yourself it will change, but you have to have some training and some form of study.

As one of the early members of what was to become the Trinidad Bonsai Society, it was with anguish I watched others take large
old Buttonwoods out of nature. Almost all died.
Yards full of Skeletons.
I dropped out and spent my time taking seeds and seedlings or cuttings.

To be frank they were so ignorant of the plant, that when I went back to the seaside, I took a 4" thick branch, sawn off and
stuck it in a mix of gravel and manure. It grew.
I found the plant to be so visually boring, that a year later I re-planted it down at the seaside.
I realised that there was high ignorance to collecting and regenerating.

I am lucky, I am just 54, and genetically, barring accident or other I have about say 5o years more. Add that to my 35 or so years
of experience, I can grow my children into intense efforts.
No rush, no hurry.
So even though this a hobby, I will still do my best and with my brother-in-law [ and his mastery of Science ] will start work on
holograms.

BUT my personal philosophy is always going to be - the tree - is to power my imagination - which powers my ideas into image.

So could we please have some images of what you guys have grown, are not oriental influenced or if influenced how you went
on further.
Some indication that your Naturalistic style isn't just a found tree, with a hat ---------- anything that shows your personality
- please.

I would be happy to show you my Fustic [ Chlorophora tintoria ] and how I have so much to learn, experiment and hopefully
get somewhere.
Laters.
Khaimraj

I don't know what you would call this but here it is.
/Users/vancewood/Desktop/Assorted BonsaiA.2/07ShowdemoShimp.jpg

Bolero,

it is very hard to say and not cause arguments on the Internet.
Walking on eggshells.
Laters
Khaimraj

Okay Bolero,

try this form of communication.

You grow a tree to satisfy yourself.
If you exhibit, you open yourself to opinions.

Why exhibit if there is no prize $$$.

Why exhibit somewhere where Naturalistic style is not appreciated, you will be judged out.
So you are exhibiting to make a scene - why ?

You have no ability to design, no training, just an amateur or so called natural talent.
Nonsense - more likely arrogance and ego - you can naturally represent 5000 years of Art etc.

You grow a tree for x years into a given shape - and it continues to grow on - out of the design.
Will you waste your time trying a second time ?
Doubtful.

I try to explain and make room for discussion, not hurt, maim and bruise.
Apologies.
Khaimraj

Words of Caution,

[1] Those who know me, know I read and experiment a great deal. You have to, down here,
a great many of new trees.
Plus head is full of stuff.

[2] If you are trying to get me to argue, because you figure I will spill the beans.
Wasting your time, I have friends on the US side who teach me all the new techniques of
interrogation. If you want deep information, I would suggest, politely - Do a google.

[3] I am not much on arguing and would prefer discussion. If you need clarification, just
ask. This is a club, not a rumshop.
Best to all.
Khaimraj

I would very much like to see the Fustic,Khaimraj.

George.

Bolero wrote: (...) this guy that I use to follow in the 1960's (...)

Name? References? That sounds interesting, but you know I wasn't in Michigan in the 60s

It's as if I quoted Francis Blanche and Pierre Dac (the latter having been one of the voices of the "Résistance" in the French government in exile during WW2) :

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Bolero,

it is very hard to say and not cause arguments on the Internet.
Walking on eggshells.
Laters
Khaimraj

Say what you have to say, if it causes an argument then duck and cover.

I tried to insert the image earlier, under the request for a more naturalized style example.

reminds me of something like this, Vance.
But it's not quite there yet.

Dave Leppo wrote:reminds me of something like this, Vance.
But it's not quite there yet.

You're right it's not there yet. Trying to pull off a style like this is more difficult that one may think, at least when considering what I am trying to do. I have to get a feel for it.

Someone asked how come Europe may have never developed Bonsai or similar.

Oriental philosophy [ India, China, Japan ] for all it's mystics and hype is essentially - negative.
Very little or nothing on Love and a great deal on Duty owed.

Bonsai / Penjing, is a system based on Longevity. Humans are very mortal.
A tree in the yard is a joy of beauty, a tree in a pot is a memory of how short our human lives are.

I have noted how older folk handle growing trees,and there is a note of sadness that grows.

I would say, Arthur, that the West for all of it's faults spent more time on timeless LOVE.

I doubt Bonsai / Penjing would have birthed in the West. Flowers and growing spices yes, but not such a strong
memory of death.

If you use the tree to jog the memory, the death aspect fades.

The thoughts of those long in Bonsai are not the same as those new [ under 20 years and also young
of true age or mind probably won't feel the mortality bit much.]

Additionally, achievements that are concrete, Painting, Poetry, Writing, Sculpture.......................
protect you as you age.
You look back with joy.

See you folks piu tarde.
Khaimraj

* Vance, really, start an argument and run ????????????????????????????????????????
Come on at 70ish , that is the advice you give to a younger head ????????????????????

Vance Wood wrote:You're right it's not there yet.  Trying to pull off a style like this is more difficult that one may think, at least when considering what I am trying to do.  I have to get a feel for it.

I'm sorry.  I actually spent all of 5 minuets looking for an image of a similar tree to yours.  It honestly looks like raw material that has potential in your capable hands.  

I do admire Monterey Cypress, though; a rather unique goal.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Someone asked how come Europe may have never developed Bonsai or similar.

Oriental philosophy [ India, China, Japan ] for all it's mystics and hype is essentially - negative.
Very little or nothing on Love and a great deal on Duty owed.

Bonsai / Penjing, is a system based on Longevity. Humans are very mortal.
A tree in the yard is a joy of beauty, a tree in a pot is a memory of how short our human lives are.

I have noted how older folk handle growing trees,and there is a note of sadness that grows.

I would say, Arthur, that the West for all of it's faults spent more time on timeless LOVE.

I doubt Bonsai / Penjing would have birthed in the West. Flowers and  growing spices yes, but not such a strong
memory of death.

If you use the tree to jog the memory, the death aspect fades.

The thoughts of those long in Bonsai are not the same as those new [ under 20 years and also young
of true age or mind probably won't feel the mortality bit much.]

Additionally, achievements that are concrete, Painting, Poetry, Writing, Sculpture.......................
protect you as you age.
You look back with joy.

See you folks piu tarde.
Khaimraj

* Vance, really, start an argument and run ????????????????????????????????????????    
Come on at 70ish , that is the advice you give to a younger head ????????????????????    

No, I said duck and cover, that does not mean run away. You wait until they fire their shots at you then you get up and fire back.

JimLewis wrote:Yes.  We are repeating our selves, redundantly, over and over again and all saying the same thing without adding new thoughts (or even clichés) to the pot we are trying to stir.  

right ?
i was away since late last week and it looks like i missed a bunch of words...

seems like several folks have a need to be "right", or at least have their view be regarded as superior...

culling some useful info from all the opinionated rhetoric is all very discouraging... and disheartening.

Khaimraj S

I always look forward to your contributions to this and other discussions on IBC, your perspective is refreshingly different to most, unconventional but thoughtful. However, after your last post I'm wondering whether you've been asleep at the back of the class!

No disrespect intended but you say that you don't take "naturalistic style" seriously because nobody is actually studying trees and applying their observations to primary material, seeds, cuttings etc.

If you said that most of us don't do this you would probably be correct (I'm certainly guilty) but I don't think you could fairly say that of Arthur after what he has posted of his work?

For much of this thread he has done little but talk about his observations of real trees in nature and detail his (in my view very successful) attempts to replicate this in his bonsai. Many of which I believe were started as seed, cuttings or very young saplings.

I accept that this is a very long thread and doubt that any of us can remember everything that has been posted but a few examples that spring to mind would be the Tamarack that more or less started this thread (1yr seedling), the Quince too (1yr seedling). Also, at least one Swamp Cypress from seed (possibly more), I think at least one Red Maple or maybe not (like I say it's been a long thread) and of course the seemingly much maligned American Hornbeam (from seed). Although I know Arthur didn't grow some of those himself.

I also recall a fairly lengthy exchange in which paintings and other representations of trees featured heavily in our discussions and although these were mostly by other artists there were at least some graphics and virtuals used to illustrate possibilities. I think there is some equivalence there to making sketches/drawings etc.

Well anyway, my point is not to moan or start an argument (what was it Vance, duck and run ) but maybe we would all benefit from taking a look back at earlier posts.

Anyhow, no disrespect intended. Perhaps you were referring to everyone except Arthur?

Regards

Richard

PS In light of the posts that have followed this today (albeit on an unrelated subject) I have edited this post so as to hopefully change it's tone without changing it's substance. I really do have no desire to argue, only to discuss and hopefully learn. It really is surprisingly easy to sound a lot more belligerent in a written post than you intend.

beer city snake wrote:

JimLewis wrote:Yes.  We are repeating our selves, redundantly, over and over again and all saying the same thing without adding new thoughts (or even clichés) to the pot we are trying to stir.  

right ?
i was away since late last week and it looks like i missed a bunch of words...

seems like several folks have a need to be "right", or at least have their view be regarded as superior...

culling some useful info from all the opinionated rhetoric is all very discouraging... and disheartening.

I'm sorry I don't mean to disagree with you but I don't see that at all, unless you think my disagreeing with your assessment is opinionated rhetoric. I see a lot of things be restated but I hardly find that a reason to shut down the most active thread on this site in years. Sometimes I get this sinking feeling that the powers that be would rather have the site go down due to it's lack of usage than encourage people to express themselves and start posting here again.

Kevin

Don't be discouraged or disheartened.

Where there is passion there is always strong emotion and where there is strong emotion you are never far from an argument!

That's just human nature my friend.

It is true that this thread has often generated much heat but I feel that it has also generated more than a little light. If you care to look closely enough I think you can see that. Yes it is sometimes a little painful but that's life isn't it?

Regards

Richard

i'm just not one to talk, or listen to, endless debate about anything (much less something that should be an enjoyment)
it gets tiresome.

arthur started this thread to showcase what he is doing at the arboretum...
in many ways, this thread has become anything but about what is being done at the arboretum

every statement is challenged, debated and beat to death in order for someone to be "right"

is that "life" ?

not where i'm from...



of course, my choice can be to just not follow along...

Vance Wood wrote: So I see a lot of things be restated but I hardly find that a reason to shut down the most active thread on this site in years. Sometimes I get this sinking feeling that the powers that be would rather have the site go down due to it's lack of usage than encourage people to express themselves and start posting here again.

May I introduce you to a word from my language? It is the word "scunnered". I can't speak for anyone else, but it certainly reflects my own feelings when faced with this sort of remark.

Lots of love,

A power that be

beer city snake wrote:i'm just not one to talk, or listen to, endless debate about anything (much less something that should be an enjoyment)
it gets tiresome.

arthur started this thread to showcase what he is doing at the arboretum...
in many ways, this thread has become anything but about what is being done at the arboretum

every statement is challenged, debated and beat to death in order for someone to be "right"

is that "life" ?

not where i'm from...



of course, my choice can be to just not follow along...

Arthur chose to take this thread down this path. It could have remained a thread about the trees at the arboretum, but he chose to make it about bonsai styles, naturalistic versus classical, the established bonsai scene versus the outsiders. People have strong opinions about these issues, and this is a discussion forum...so what do you expect to happen? For the most part it's been pretty civil. If you don't like it, don't participate.

coh wrote:

beer city snake wrote:i'm just not one to talk, or listen to, endless debate about anything (much less something that should be an enjoyment)
it gets tiresome.

arthur started this thread to showcase what he is doing at the arboretum...
in many ways, this thread has become anything but about what is being done at the arboretum

every statement is challenged, debated and beat to death in order for someone to be "right"

is that "life" ?

not where i'm from...



of course, my choice can be to just not follow along...

Arthur chose to take this thread down this path. It could have remained a thread about the trees at the arboretum, but he chose to make it about bonsai styles, naturalistic versus classical, the established bonsai scene versus the outsiders. People have strong opinions about these issues, and this is a discussion forum...so what do you expect to happen? For the most part it's been pretty civil. If you don't like it, don't participate.

First of all most of the time if I want to complement someone I use words that I know they will understand and if I  insult someone I usually do it by accident, but I try to use words in critical situations where I know I will not be misunderstood which brings up the point of Scunnared.  I try to stick to English, so; as far as I know you are calling me low down and foul smelling.

As to this discussion.  I have not noticed any one getting there neck bent out of alignment over any of this except the administrators.  It is true that some of the same material is discussed over and over but it shows one thing; no one is right and no one is wrong.  The fact that no one is accusing anyone else of eating bugs and writing of out-house walls say volumes, that we have gotten to a point that we see and accept the validity of the diverse styles in bonsai and are just now coming to grasps with our own identities within bonsai independent of every thing else.

Why is it that a forum with hundreds of members and perhaps thousands of posts in the last few days only three other thread have had a response while this one is blowing up the site?