Andre B. Critique Requested
+6
ogie
TonyRoch
JimLewis
dick benbow
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Kakejiku
10 posters
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Andre B. Critique Requested
Kakejiku Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:10 pm
Andre...You have critiqued some of the displays recently. I wanted to hear your opinion on this one.
It is not a season display. It is a timeline display with Christian theme...Wanted to hear your opinions and then I will write some of my reasoning in setting up the display. Olive bonsai was provided by a California Bonsai artist.
Accent close up
It is not a season display. It is a timeline display with Christian theme...Wanted to hear your opinions and then I will write some of my reasoning in setting up the display. Olive bonsai was provided by a California Bonsai artist.
Accent close up
Kakejiku- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Guest Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:18 pm
Hi Kakejiku
I know it is Andre you want to talk this display ower with...but he has not given a reply for some days now, so...
I am sure you have not given this a thought, but to let Virgin Maria worship a tree, is in my country not good taste...It could have been more acceptable if you had let her sit in the bonsaipot praying to god in the shade of the tree....but then again, not really to my liking, to place her in a japanese display is too strange for me , sorry.
kind regards Yvonne
I know it is Andre you want to talk this display ower with...but he has not given a reply for some days now, so...
I am sure you have not given this a thought, but to let Virgin Maria worship a tree, is in my country not good taste...It could have been more acceptable if you had let her sit in the bonsaipot praying to god in the shade of the tree....but then again, not really to my liking, to place her in a japanese display is too strange for me , sorry.
kind regards Yvonne
Guest- Guest
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:27 pm
Yvonne,
although the main picture is a bit blurry (as is religion),
it appears that she is facing away from the tree rather than worshiping it...
kevin
although the main picture is a bit blurry (as is religion),
it appears that she is facing away from the tree rather than worshiping it...
kevin
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Guest Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:44 pm
I dont think you are right, but I can agree to, on the big photo is she looking away....to let her look away from the tree, would not make the display better, just more strange....small mistakess is being made all the time in japanese displays, even with the best intensions, it happens to all of us... and here is a christian/japanese display that does not work.
Kind regards Yvonne
Kind regards Yvonne
Guest- Guest
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kakejiku Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:17 pm
Embedded symbolism is an important aspect of Kazari. I would recommend the book Kazari, Decoration and Display in Japan by Nicole Coolidge Rousmaniere. It has opened my eyes, particularly to the importance of literary allusion that takes place with many artworks set on display.
So, people will understand each component then here it is. Also, you are mistaken on the accent. This is not the virgin Mary, but Mary Magdalene. Very important point.
For those native Japanese speakers, please forgive the many mistakes in my Japanese translation of this...
Display Design Outline:
行の真席飾り
Gyou no Shin Seki Kazari
Display Title:
聖誕祭・贖罪・復活
Birth・Atonement・Resurrection
Season or Theme:
イエス・キリストの大切な人生の後にも先にもこと。
Religious Panorama of major life events of Jesus Christ
Perhaps viewing this display one could feel there are many technical points that are incorrect. Some part may be true if not looking at the entire symbolism in the display. For me, display is not to mimic what I have seen others do, but it is to feel and express my background and experiences in a veiled technique. For me this is the spirit of “Asobi no Kokoro”. The most glaring point that one may not be accustomed is the fact that this particular display does not depict a season or a singular point in time. It provides a panorama of the major events of the life of Jesus Christ with each display element. In conjunction, this runs counter to the Japanese traditions of Shintoism and Buddhism which heavily influence the art of display, and at times are actual elements used in the display.
The first element of the display represents the birth of Jesus Christ and is the scroll. On it is written a Bible passage from Mathew chapter two in verse two in Semi-Cursive Japanese calligraphy. It reads, “Behold, we have seen His star in the East.” This scroll is framed in the informal style called Maru Hyougu, in a blue silk. The purpose of the color was specific and allows the viewer to imagine looking up into the night sky. This element in the display, based on size, compared to the size of the bonsai would be viewed by many as distracting or incorrect. The element proportions were however, chosen deliberately to embed a double layer of symbolism into the display. It will be discussed at the end of the explanation.
The primary element is the bonsai. It is an olive in a Moyougi like styling. If viewing, one can almost see the Savior in the Garden of Gethsemane performing the atonement. I have read that Gethsemane means Olive Press, hence the selection of the olive. This trunk provides a visual cue of Jesus kneeling in prayer at the trunk of the tree. This bonsai is owned by Mr. Al Nelson of Southern California, and he styled and prepared the tree to be show ready, and to whom I express my gratitude at his graciousness. Mentioned previously, the tree is supposed to be the focal point of the display, and in the final synopsis this will be delineated as to why it is the focal point even though the bonsai is small.
The accents I had prepared was a tomb made of sandstone and figurines of Mary Magdalene and Jesus commissioned by an IBC member. Which ones I will use in the final display I am yet unsure. I prefer the tomb, it is less direct and more in line with providing obtuse imagery. The figurines will perhaps be more direct in providing a visual story. These are all symbols that can be used to represent the Resurrection.
To conclude, harmonizing the meaning of such a large scroll, with a small bonsai will now be expounded. It is true that I could have hand made a new scroll that was narrower, with smaller writing, and it would not have competed so strongly with the tree, but I have always really liked this particular writing of Yoshimi’s. The brush strokes are not as thick as she normally writes, and is more feminine in nature. Also, the blue hue of the cloth has really good imagery of looking up into the night sky.
Additionally, as Christians in America, we tend to focus so much on Christmas and the birth of Jesus, that we forget the true mission was the gift of the Atonement, providing a path for repentance. It is the central event necessary to live in Heaven with God. Far too often though, the gift of repentance is secluded as an afterthought, when compared to the general celebration of Christ’s birth. For that reason, I hung this particular size scroll with this particular tree, hoping that all may recognize the importance of the item that should be central in the display.
後ろ側に日本語の説明書を書いています。
この席飾りを見る人達は正しくないところが多くあると思うかもしれません。
全体の象徴する意味を理解していないなら、一つずつ批評すると確かに立法を従わないところがあります。私にとって、床や席飾りは日本文化を招くのではなく、自分の経験や背景を伝えたいと考えています。雅道の規則は「遊びの心」で飾りましょうと教えています。自分自身を表現すれば、「遊びの心」を果たしています。この飾りの一番分かりづらいところは、一時や季節の代表を表現していません。盆栽と掛け軸と添えは一つずつイエス・キリストの大切な人生イベントを描写しています。これは日本の仏教や神道の文化と違います。時々仏教や神道のテーマは床飾りに出っています。日本人にとって、分かりにくいかもしれません。
飾りの掛け軸はイエス・キリスト様の出産を象徴しています。書道は新約聖書の福音によりマタイ書の2書2節。龍玉さんが行書で「私達は東の方でその星を見た」と書きました。掛け軸は丸表具の草位で注文しました。青い装地（つまり絹）は夜空を見ているの気持ちを象徴することです。掛け軸と盆栽の大きさに比べれば、この点は正しくないると感じる人は大勢いるとおもいますが、後で説明します。
主木の盆栽は模様義のオーリブです。これはイエス様の贖い、または贖罪のことを象徴しています。木の幹を見れば、おそらくイエス様がゲッセマネでひざまずいて、祈っていることを想像できるでしょうか。ゲッセマネはヘブライ語でオーリブ圧縮機の意味です。この盆栽は南部カリフォルニア州のアル・ネルソン氏の物ですので、お借りできたことを真に感謝しています。盆栽は小品やきふですので、少し小さいですが、これも後ほど説明します。
添えは砂岩の墓です。イエス様が亡くなった三日後、復活したことを象徴しています。「イエス様とマリアの銅製焼き物を買って、もっていたが使うかどうか、分かりません。墓だけを使用するかどうか分かりませんが、アメリカ人はマリアを見ないとまったくイエスについての飾りことを考えられないのだと思います。」
これから、盆栽と掛け軸の大きさを説明します。確かに、飾りの「前に新しい掛け軸を作成することができました。小さい字を書いたり、細くて、浅い色の装地を使用し、掛け物を仕立てたが、この書道の心優しさ好きでした。」特に、アメリカ人でキリストを信じる人達はクリスマスの季節とイエス様の誕生日に注目しますので、キリストの贖いを忘れる可能があります。贖罪によって、自分の罪の赦しを受けます。そして、罪の赦しを受けたら、再び神様と一緒に住めるチャンスがあります。その偉大な点を忘れてしまうとお誕生日しか祝わないことになりかねません。主木は一番大切なものです。「この掛け軸をご覧になる際に、心で感じてもらえたらと願っています。」
ジョナサン・メイプルズより
On the opposite side of this paper it is written in English.
So, people will understand each component then here it is. Also, you are mistaken on the accent. This is not the virgin Mary, but Mary Magdalene. Very important point.
For those native Japanese speakers, please forgive the many mistakes in my Japanese translation of this...
Display Design Outline:
行の真席飾り
Gyou no Shin Seki Kazari
Display Title:
聖誕祭・贖罪・復活
Birth・Atonement・Resurrection
Season or Theme:
イエス・キリストの大切な人生の後にも先にもこと。
Religious Panorama of major life events of Jesus Christ
Perhaps viewing this display one could feel there are many technical points that are incorrect. Some part may be true if not looking at the entire symbolism in the display. For me, display is not to mimic what I have seen others do, but it is to feel and express my background and experiences in a veiled technique. For me this is the spirit of “Asobi no Kokoro”. The most glaring point that one may not be accustomed is the fact that this particular display does not depict a season or a singular point in time. It provides a panorama of the major events of the life of Jesus Christ with each display element. In conjunction, this runs counter to the Japanese traditions of Shintoism and Buddhism which heavily influence the art of display, and at times are actual elements used in the display.
The first element of the display represents the birth of Jesus Christ and is the scroll. On it is written a Bible passage from Mathew chapter two in verse two in Semi-Cursive Japanese calligraphy. It reads, “Behold, we have seen His star in the East.” This scroll is framed in the informal style called Maru Hyougu, in a blue silk. The purpose of the color was specific and allows the viewer to imagine looking up into the night sky. This element in the display, based on size, compared to the size of the bonsai would be viewed by many as distracting or incorrect. The element proportions were however, chosen deliberately to embed a double layer of symbolism into the display. It will be discussed at the end of the explanation.
The primary element is the bonsai. It is an olive in a Moyougi like styling. If viewing, one can almost see the Savior in the Garden of Gethsemane performing the atonement. I have read that Gethsemane means Olive Press, hence the selection of the olive. This trunk provides a visual cue of Jesus kneeling in prayer at the trunk of the tree. This bonsai is owned by Mr. Al Nelson of Southern California, and he styled and prepared the tree to be show ready, and to whom I express my gratitude at his graciousness. Mentioned previously, the tree is supposed to be the focal point of the display, and in the final synopsis this will be delineated as to why it is the focal point even though the bonsai is small.
The accents I had prepared was a tomb made of sandstone and figurines of Mary Magdalene and Jesus commissioned by an IBC member. Which ones I will use in the final display I am yet unsure. I prefer the tomb, it is less direct and more in line with providing obtuse imagery. The figurines will perhaps be more direct in providing a visual story. These are all symbols that can be used to represent the Resurrection.
To conclude, harmonizing the meaning of such a large scroll, with a small bonsai will now be expounded. It is true that I could have hand made a new scroll that was narrower, with smaller writing, and it would not have competed so strongly with the tree, but I have always really liked this particular writing of Yoshimi’s. The brush strokes are not as thick as she normally writes, and is more feminine in nature. Also, the blue hue of the cloth has really good imagery of looking up into the night sky.
Additionally, as Christians in America, we tend to focus so much on Christmas and the birth of Jesus, that we forget the true mission was the gift of the Atonement, providing a path for repentance. It is the central event necessary to live in Heaven with God. Far too often though, the gift of repentance is secluded as an afterthought, when compared to the general celebration of Christ’s birth. For that reason, I hung this particular size scroll with this particular tree, hoping that all may recognize the importance of the item that should be central in the display.
後ろ側に日本語の説明書を書いています。
この席飾りを見る人達は正しくないところが多くあると思うかもしれません。
全体の象徴する意味を理解していないなら、一つずつ批評すると確かに立法を従わないところがあります。私にとって、床や席飾りは日本文化を招くのではなく、自分の経験や背景を伝えたいと考えています。雅道の規則は「遊びの心」で飾りましょうと教えています。自分自身を表現すれば、「遊びの心」を果たしています。この飾りの一番分かりづらいところは、一時や季節の代表を表現していません。盆栽と掛け軸と添えは一つずつイエス・キリストの大切な人生イベントを描写しています。これは日本の仏教や神道の文化と違います。時々仏教や神道のテーマは床飾りに出っています。日本人にとって、分かりにくいかもしれません。
飾りの掛け軸はイエス・キリスト様の出産を象徴しています。書道は新約聖書の福音によりマタイ書の2書2節。龍玉さんが行書で「私達は東の方でその星を見た」と書きました。掛け軸は丸表具の草位で注文しました。青い装地（つまり絹）は夜空を見ているの気持ちを象徴することです。掛け軸と盆栽の大きさに比べれば、この点は正しくないると感じる人は大勢いるとおもいますが、後で説明します。
主木の盆栽は模様義のオーリブです。これはイエス様の贖い、または贖罪のことを象徴しています。木の幹を見れば、おそらくイエス様がゲッセマネでひざまずいて、祈っていることを想像できるでしょうか。ゲッセマネはヘブライ語でオーリブ圧縮機の意味です。この盆栽は南部カリフォルニア州のアル・ネルソン氏の物ですので、お借りできたことを真に感謝しています。盆栽は小品やきふですので、少し小さいですが、これも後ほど説明します。
添えは砂岩の墓です。イエス様が亡くなった三日後、復活したことを象徴しています。「イエス様とマリアの銅製焼き物を買って、もっていたが使うかどうか、分かりません。墓だけを使用するかどうか分かりませんが、アメリカ人はマリアを見ないとまったくイエスについての飾りことを考えられないのだと思います。」
これから、盆栽と掛け軸の大きさを説明します。確かに、飾りの「前に新しい掛け軸を作成することができました。小さい字を書いたり、細くて、浅い色の装地を使用し、掛け物を仕立てたが、この書道の心優しさ好きでした。」特に、アメリカ人でキリストを信じる人達はクリスマスの季節とイエス様の誕生日に注目しますので、キリストの贖いを忘れる可能があります。贖罪によって、自分の罪の赦しを受けます。そして、罪の赦しを受けたら、再び神様と一緒に住めるチャンスがあります。その偉大な点を忘れてしまうとお誕生日しか祝わないことになりかねません。主木は一番大切なものです。「この掛け軸をご覧になる際に、心で感じてもらえたらと願っています。」
ジョナサン・メイプルズより
On the opposite side of this paper it is written in English.
Kakejiku- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Guest Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:43 pm
Impressing answer...we can all display what we want ofcourse....
If it is Virgin Mary or Maria Magdalene does not realy make a difrence to me, and to see Jesus in the tree is akward to me....when this is said, do I think I would use the tomb as the accent together with the olivetree, as it is more quiet, and can give me moment of thoughts of what happened back then, in a more tasteful way.
Kind regards Yvonne
If it is Virgin Mary or Maria Magdalene does not realy make a difrence to me, and to see Jesus in the tree is akward to me....when this is said, do I think I would use the tomb as the accent together with the olivetree, as it is more quiet, and can give me moment of thoughts of what happened back then, in a more tasteful way.
Kind regards Yvonne
Guest- Guest
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
dick benbow Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:39 pm
I like the effort! The last coupla years I have been working on my olive and cedar of lebanon for a similar purpose. So good for you...
In my mind as I gauge your display, the scroll because of it's size commands the focus. therefore putting it's statement of the savor's birth to the forefront. I like the use of the Olive because it was at the end of Christ's life during another pivital time prior to the anxiety of being crucified. For tenpai, I'm thinking more about the reserrection, as we follow thru to his victory over death. So instead of the figurine used, would replace it with the open grave that you mentioned earlier.
If the tree had been bigger and a smaller scroll could have been used for balance with the same message, I could see a tenpai used
of a reclining figure, dipicting the apostles failing to be able to stay awake during his time of prayer and preparation for his death.
But as you so sagely stated, it's not so much about his birth as it was about for the resserection.
In my mind as I gauge your display, the scroll because of it's size commands the focus. therefore putting it's statement of the savor's birth to the forefront. I like the use of the Olive because it was at the end of Christ's life during another pivital time prior to the anxiety of being crucified. For tenpai, I'm thinking more about the reserrection, as we follow thru to his victory over death. So instead of the figurine used, would replace it with the open grave that you mentioned earlier.
If the tree had been bigger and a smaller scroll could have been used for balance with the same message, I could see a tenpai used
of a reclining figure, dipicting the apostles failing to be able to stay awake during his time of prayer and preparation for his death.
But as you so sagely stated, it's not so much about his birth as it was about for the resserection.
dick benbow- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
JimLewis Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:11 pm
You will of course always get strong reactions from a display that mixes different, strongly felt, religious symbols.
While I might have preferred that it never have started, I dearly hope this discussion doesn't wander off into paths we don't need it to go.
While I might have preferred that it never have started, I dearly hope this discussion doesn't wander off into paths we don't need it to go.
JimLewis- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
dick benbow Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:19 pm
Hi Jim,
I agree ! Was expecting a response from someone about religion views being shared on this forum but then I thought heh? I had to learn buddist and shinto believes to begin uderstanding my hobbies from japan. ( Ikebana,bonsai, suiseki, koi ) LOL! So I quess in life religion is hard to get away from, but ultimately respect for each others views is paramount to being a good contributor to this forum.
I agree ! Was expecting a response from someone about religion views being shared on this forum but then I thought heh? I had to learn buddist and shinto believes to begin uderstanding my hobbies from japan. ( Ikebana,bonsai, suiseki, koi ) LOL! So I quess in life religion is hard to get away from, but ultimately respect for each others views is paramount to being a good contributor to this forum.
dick benbow- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
TonyRoch Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:59 pm
JimLewis wrote:You will of course always get strong reactions from a display that mixes different, strongly felt, religious symbols.
While I might have preferred that it never have started, I dearly hope this discussion doesn't wander off into paths we don't need it to go.
I tend to agree with Jim; with no ill intent to others.
The art of suiseki is sacred in its own ways to our friends up east.
I'm not an expert in suiseki, though I take a deep interest in it.
I like to share this educational youtube video.
TonyRoch- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Guest Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:12 pm
I am not very christian...I never go to church or pray, but respect people who does, in the quet way that is normal for danish people...also did I read the bible.
I prefer the buddist and shinto way of life.
Kind regards Yvonne
I prefer the buddist and shinto way of life.
Kind regards Yvonne
Guest- Guest
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kakejiku Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:15 pm
JimLewis wrote:You will of course always get strong reactions from a display that mixes different, strongly felt, religious symbols.
While I might have preferred that it never have started, I dearly hope this discussion doesn't wander off into paths we don't need it to go.
Never intended it to be a religious discussion. In this contest the only critique given was that the display was unbalanced...but the size of the table and tree I used was similar in size to several displays from Japan which had an even larger scroll...I had enjoyed reading his critiques on placement and spatial distance, wanting to hear more of what he thought. Second place display had a bullfrog that was very large. Seemed disproportionately large in contrast to the painting in the scroll but not necessarily the bonsai.
As for display. I think everyone should think about the following when conducting a critique:
1. Outlining the formality of the display and determining accents formality that will complement.
2. Determine the Nagare (流れ) which will help to set the flow of the display.
3. Are you referencing a literary work or a poem to help convey messages
4. What is the spacing of the pieces and is there a proper amount of room between the pieces.
Anyway...just some random thoughts...
Kakejiku- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
ogie Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:06 pm
Hi kakejiku,Yvonne, Jim, Rolex, Dick et al....
Learning.....by reading all your comments,i love Bonsai and suiseki and the display all of sorts. Being said , there are a lot to be learn,rescently i bought a japanese religious figurine. Still thinking wether to display it together with my suiseki or not but for me whenever i put up the over all display i think everyone's opinion is right. Religious aspect must be respected,overall composition,is it a crazy hobby? ( YES YES )....let us enjoy each other friendship thru this forum and meet someday in person..and bond.
Thanks for opening our hearts and eyes!
With respect and regard,
Ogie
Learning.....by reading all your comments,i love Bonsai and suiseki and the display all of sorts. Being said , there are a lot to be learn,rescently i bought a japanese religious figurine. Still thinking wether to display it together with my suiseki or not
but for me whenever i put up the over all display i think everyone's opinion is right. Religious aspect must be respected,overall composition,is it a crazy hobby? ( YES YES )....let us enjoy each other friendship thru this forum and meet someday in person..and bond.Thanks for opening our hearts and eyes!
With respect and regard,
Ogie
Last edited by ogie on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Insert name)
ogie- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Andre Beaurain Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:38 am
Kakejiku wrote:Andre...You have critiqued some of the displays recently. I wanted to hear your opinion on this one.
It is not a season display. It is a timeline display with Christian theme...Wanted to hear your opinions and then I will write some of my reasoning in setting up the display. Olive bonsai was provided by a California Bonsai artist.
Accent close up
Dear Kakejiku
To my eye there is too much space between the tree and the Figurine. Too much negative space and it looks ...emmm cubistic, (Blocked) is there such a word? It looks as if you are trying to put every element in its own band. The display also looks to muscular, doesnt fit an Elegant women flapping about....hihihihihii
Try and break this by putting the figurine on a organic Jiita - not round or square. If you cannot do this try and find a table with a little more Feminine lines..not so "heavy".
The tree is also to far in the corner. Try and place it so that the foliage touches the scroll from the front view.
The figurine must move closer and be little more elevated. Actually you can make it look more feminine by placing the Figurine on Moss....It will soften everything.
I dont know much about the Eastern rules for display, I only know what looks right what fits together and how to harmonize space.
Love and light
Andre Beaurain- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
fiona Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:11 pm
Hi Kakejiku. First, thanks for generating such a thought-provoking thread. Can I venture an opinion on this please? And it is very much just an opinion and no doubt others will have different views which is okay by me.
The figurine: I am not Christian but was brought up enough in that faith to know a fair bit about it. Thus it was apparent to me that the figurine was Mary Magdalene and not the Virgin Mary which as you so rightly say is a very important difference. The figurine was what gave the display a context for me as it immediately puts it in the garden of Gethsemane rather than anywhere else. That is crucial. And it also frames the "story" in the display.
The scroll: For me (and this is where the personal subjective stuff comes in) does not work for the very simple reason that I do not know what it is saying, and I rather suspect many viewers will have the same issue. (thanks, btw, for your translation). Therefore at this point the "story" gets for me fairly lost. For me, and please let me stress that this is only a personal slant, it would have needed to be one of a pictorial scroll, or the text in English. Or, and this is a either the stupidest or the cleverest idea, the text in a biblical language such as Aramaic or Greek. I appreciate there is an irony as I have just mentioned about viewers understanding it but it would have for me (there's that for me again) have at least brought the context back. And I could have at least understood enough in Greek to give me the actual reference.
The other point about the scroll is it doesn't seem to be in keeping with my understanding of your words in your explanation. I thought you were saying that you wanted to put the focus on to the aspect of resurrection and atonement rather than the Christmas birth side. Would that not mean that the scroll should have focused not on the star in the east which is very much a birth theme? I accept this might just be me misunderstanding what you were saying. If I'd been doing this I'd probably have gone for John 11.25 or something similar. The same celestial aspect of the blue cloth would still be appropriate.
The tree: I know you have explained your reasons why, but I think that it is dominated by the scroll too much. I do like the idea of the Olive - not just because of the Gethsemane link but because it is an almost universal symbol of peace. A question though: would it be appropriate to have a stone instead of a tree in this display? It would have a relevance to the depicted story, and it would get away from the feeling of associating trees with Judas. Another thought might be a thorn bearing tree as representing suffering. Again, just an opinion.
I appreciate the way this thread has stayed clear of religious debate and these thoughts of mine are not intended to spark anything other than a furtherance of the discussion on the display itself. My own ideas are of course based on my own interpretation of the same themes as you started with. I do, however, admit to having more than a passing love of a certain Dali painting in Kelvingrove Art Gallery which is only a few miles from me and which probably would influence my thinking on how I'd have done this display. Go google.
The figurine: I am not Christian but was brought up enough in that faith to know a fair bit about it. Thus it was apparent to me that the figurine was Mary Magdalene and not the Virgin Mary which as you so rightly say is a very important difference. The figurine was what gave the display a context for me as it immediately puts it in the garden of Gethsemane rather than anywhere else. That is crucial. And it also frames the "story" in the display.
The scroll: For me (and this is where the personal subjective stuff comes in) does not work for the very simple reason that I do not know what it is saying, and I rather suspect many viewers will have the same issue. (thanks, btw, for your translation). Therefore at this point the "story" gets for me fairly lost. For me, and please let me stress that this is only a personal slant, it would have needed to be one of a pictorial scroll, or the text in English. Or, and this is a either the stupidest or the cleverest idea, the text in a biblical language such as Aramaic or Greek. I appreciate there is an irony as I have just mentioned about viewers understanding it but it would have for me (there's that for me again) have at least brought the context back. And I could have at least understood enough in Greek to give me the actual reference.
The other point about the scroll is it doesn't seem to be in keeping with my understanding of your words in your explanation. I thought you were saying that you wanted to put the focus on to the aspect of resurrection and atonement rather than the Christmas birth side. Would that not mean that the scroll should have focused not on the star in the east which is very much a birth theme? I accept this might just be me misunderstanding what you were saying. If I'd been doing this I'd probably have gone for John 11.25 or something similar. The same celestial aspect of the blue cloth would still be appropriate.
The tree: I know you have explained your reasons why, but I think that it is dominated by the scroll too much. I do like the idea of the Olive - not just because of the Gethsemane link but because it is an almost universal symbol of peace. A question though: would it be appropriate to have a stone instead of a tree in this display? It would have a relevance to the depicted story, and it would get away from the feeling of associating trees with Judas. Another thought might be a thorn bearing tree as representing suffering. Again, just an opinion.
I appreciate the way this thread has stayed clear of religious debate and these thoughts of mine are not intended to spark anything other than a furtherance of the discussion on the display itself. My own ideas are of course based on my own interpretation of the same themes as you started with. I do, however, admit to having more than a passing love of a certain Dali painting in Kelvingrove Art Gallery which is only a few miles from me and which probably would influence my thinking on how I'd have done this display. Go google.
fiona- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
dick benbow Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:00 pm
Some pretty good points Fiona. did google the master's artwork. glad you suggested it...
dick benbow- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:33 pm
... and then my eyes were opened.
not that what i think matters, but i fully agree with andre's spatial analysis...
and i totally agree with fiona's thoughts on making it more understandable to my western mind's eye.
like you fiona, i was raised and schooled in a way to know enough about something that i personally subsequently rejected,
though that rejection in no way diminishes my appreciation for the story being told... as long as i have a grasp of what is being conveyed.
not that what i think matters, but i fully agree with andre's spatial analysis...
and i totally agree with fiona's thoughts on making it more understandable to my western mind's eye.
like you fiona, i was raised and schooled in a way to know enough about something that i personally subsequently rejected,
though that rejection in no way diminishes my appreciation for the story being told... as long as i have a grasp of what is being conveyed.
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Guest Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:37 pm
beer city snake wrote:... and then my eyes were opened.
not that what i think matters, but i fully agree with andre's spatial analysis...
and i totally agree with fiona's thoughts on making it more understandable to my western mind's eye.
like you fiona, i was raised and schooled in a way to know enough about something that i personally subsequently rejected,
though that rejection in no way diminishes my appreciation for the story being told... as long as i have a grasp of what is being conveyed.
I can only agree to everything said here
Kind regards Yvonne
Guest- Guest
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Andrew Legg Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:34 pm
Ok, so for me, the primary problem with this display is that the scroll is not in English. The message is simply lost. To me the beauty of any bonsai display is in the impact and thoughtfulness that goes into contemplating it. This is lost if I don't understand it, as is the message. Any display should be presented with the expected viewer in mind.
Andrew Legg- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
dick benbow Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:25 am
I found a way around that concern. I love things in japanese for the "look" but also agree that it's nice to be able to understand what is being said. So I have a friend who teaches calligraphy 
dick benbow- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kakejiku Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:37 pm
ogie wrote:rescently i bought a japanese religious figurine. Still thinking wether to display it together with my suiseki or not
Ogie
What figure did you purchase. Can you send a picture of it? How tall are the dimensions and what is it made of? Also send me some pics of the suiseki you are considering and I will do a display outline for you...
In one of my Display books, there is a display with Juroujin (寿老人) the God of Longevity. It is the main piece in the display and is made of wood. So it is a Sou no Shin (Informal/Formal) ranked display. The figurine is placed on a flat rectangular rosewood table (it is so low it almost looks like a jiita). It is accompanied with a Kakemono that has a fan with the calligraphy words （復活）Fukkatsu or Resurrection, written in Japanese. This was one of the inspirations to provide ideas for the display I posted....
Kakejiku- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kakejiku Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:01 pm
Andre Beaurain wrote:
Dear Kakejiku
To my eye there is too much space between the tree and the Figurine. Too much negative space and it looks ...emmm cubistic, (Blocked) is there such a word? It looks as if you are trying to put every element in its own band. The display also looks to muscular, doesnt fit an Elegant women flapping about....hihihihihii
Try and break this by putting the figurine on a organic Jiita - not round or square. If you cannot do this try and find a table with a little more Feminine lines..not so "heavy".
The tree is also to far in the corner. Try and place it so that the foliage touches the scroll from the front view.
The figurine must move closer and be little more elevated. Actually you can make it look more feminine by placing the Figurine on Moss....It will soften everything.
I dont know much about the Eastern rules for display, I only know what looks right what fits together and how to harmonize space.
Love and light
Thank you for taking the time to write some of your thoughts and feelings.
I always try to follow rules of Formal/Semi-Formal/Informal (真・行・草）shin, gyou and sou respectively in Japanese. The tree would be ranked Semi-formal in species and formal in styling. So I wanted more informal pieces to go with the main tree. Perhaps this is what you mean by blocky or muscular.
Very rarely do Japanese bonsai artists put a shohin/chuuhin size tree into the scroll. When it blends into the scroll, tendency of eye is to move away from the tree, no longer making it the focal point of the display. I do have an example of a bunjin red pine flowing into the Chi (bottom portion) of the scroll, but it was only a two point display and had meaning in its placement.
I disagree with moving the accent any closer...It seems so ironic to me that here in our wide open Western Hemisphere, we cram everything so close in a bonsai display, but in Japan (I can not speak from experience with other East Asian nations) they want to put as much open space as possible. It is like, in their everyday life they are so starved of personal space, that if provided the opportunity they put as much space as possible between objects, and we do the opposite in the West.
By organic Jiita, do you mean a Tenzenkei? The figurine is a Sou no Shin (ceramic and religious) so perhaps matching it with a shin no sou jiita would work, but it feels to me at first glance as too contradictory and extreme in the differences of formality.
I have never seen figurines placed on moss in formal Japanese displays. This idea seems like something more suited for an all encompassing bonkei style exhibit.
If you elevate the accent, wouldn't that further distract the viewers eye from the main tree? For me personally it would...
Thank you for your thoughts and ideas. `
Kakejiku- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kakejiku Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:26 pm
fiona wrote:
The scroll: For me (and this is where the personal subjective stuff comes in) does not work for the very simple reason that I do not know what it is saying,
Or, and this is a either the stupidest or the cleverest idea, the text in a biblical language such as Aramaic or Greek.
The other point about the scroll is it doesn't seem to be in keeping with my understanding of your words in your explanation. I thought you were saying that you wanted to put the focus on to the aspect of resurrection and atonement rather than the Christmas birth side.
The tree: I know you have explained your reasons why, but I think that it is dominated by the scroll too much. A question though: would it be appropriate to have a stone instead of a tree in this display? It would have a relevance to the depicted story, and it would get away from the feeling of associating trees with Judas. Another thought might be a thorn bearing tree as representing suffering. Again, just an opinion.
I appreciate the way this thread has stayed clear of religious debate and these thoughts of mine are not intended to spark anything other than a furtherance of the discussion on the display itself. My own ideas are of course based on my own interpretation of the same themes as you started with. I do, however, admit to having more than a passing love of a certain Dali painting in Kelvingrove Art Gallery which is only a few miles from me and which probably would influence my thinking on how I'd have done this display. Go google.
Fiona:
Thank you for the intellectually stimulating response and insightful questions.
I would reference that many of the calligraphy scrolls used with bonsai display are not written in a legible format (Sousho or Kana style) and are placed to accentuate the symmetry of the tree...Paintings paired with bonsai must be done carefully, as the painting usually dominates over the tree or main display piece.
I do think having in Greek or Aramaic is interesting, unfortunately I do not know any professional Greek or Aramaic calligraphers...
The sizes of scroll and bonsai are tongue in cheek in a way (reality versus ideal), but I have at least four examples of Japanese displays with larger scrolls than this paired with Sanyasou or Chuuhin size bonsai. I can see why some are saying it is too large.
I like your idea of suffering... I am sure others could present some good examples of thorn type bonsai that are both regionally and horticulturally viable.
Most stone displays are two point, I recall a Chinese gentleman posting a large viewing stone with a cross shape...perhaps this would work if the display was done differently
Kakejiku- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Kakejiku Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:59 pm
Andrew Legg wrote:Ok, so for me, the primary problem with this display is that the scroll is not in English. The message is simply lost. To me the beauty of any bonsai display is in the impact and thoughtfulness that goes into contemplating it. This is lost if I don't understand it, as is the message. Any display should be presented with the expected viewer in mind.
I think if Picasso only wanted to paint with the expected viewer in mind, then he never would have introduced the world to cubism or painted in his blue period style...I just do not feel that English really fits into scrolls.
I am not saying I am Picasso, but my primary objective of this display was to follow the traditional rules of Japanese Gadou style of display, but putting a theme and message that is embedded in the history and culture of the West...
Cultural storytelling is an important guiding aspect of the Gadou style of display. It is hard to understand the cultural background without studying many different subjects.
If you are searching for impact, contemplation and thoughtfulness I will propose the following. This was a display placed at the entrance before the main showroom of a bonsai display event. It is a Bunjin styled red pine with a painting of Takasago. I suggest people research Takasago to begin contemplating some of the messages below.
Why was it placed at the entrance and what is the overall theme or reason for this display?
Some state that Humans in a Scroll is frowned upon...Why is this different?
I was taught that redundant items or themes in a display is discouraged or detracts from the display. Isn't it redundant to have a red pine and then figures that are anthropomoriphic symbols of pine trees redundant?
Kakejiku- Member
Re: Andre B. Critique Requested
Andre Beaurain Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:31 am
Kakejiku wrote:
Thank you for taking the time to write some of your thoughts and feelings.
You are most welcome.
I always try to follow rules of Formal/Semi-Formal/Informal (真・行・草）shin, gyou and sou respectively in Japanese. The tree would be ranked Semi-formal in species and formal in styling. So I wanted more informal pieces to go with the main tree. Perhaps this is what you mean by blocky or muscular.
What I mean... The Tree is Masculine right? The table it sits on is dark heavy and a bit to oversize...hence masculine. The scroll is nothing but manly. The figurine sits on a formal seat (jiita) ...I feel this is also to Butch. Then you ad a very beautiful feminine figurine... There is no balance... a ratio of 1 - 5 ,
it would preferably be 2 -4 or 3 -3 or get away from the Feminine figurine and do it all Masculine...this will also work.
Very rarely do Japanese bonsai artists put a shohin/chuuhin size tree into the scroll. When it blends into the scroll, tendency of eye is to move away from the tree, no longer making it the focal point of the display. I do have an example of a bunjin red pine flowing into the Chi (bottom portion) of the scroll, but it was only a two point display and had meaning in its placement.
This is just the problem with your display. You want the tree to be the focal point...but its not, the scroll definitely is.
This is also where personal taste comes in, cause whenever the bonsai touches the scroll visually, I love it, and it blends together beautifully. Whenever it is not , it always doesnt look right to me.
The Bunjin red pine display ...the spacing is equisite and very well balanced... Scroll and tree are married to form a beautiful display
I disagree with moving the accent any closer...It seems so ironic to me that here in our wide open Western Hemisphere, we cram everything so close in a bonsai display, but in Japan (I can not speak from experience with other East Asian nations) they want to put as much open space as possible. It is like, in their everyday life they are so starved of personal space, that if provided the opportunity they put as much space as possible between objects, and we do the opposite in the West.
You might like it, but the figurine looks isolated and alone, is this what you want to portray?
Placing items with as much space as possible doesnt make it balanced. And I wouldnt call a Tokonoma spacious. hihihihihiiihiii
By organic Jiita, do you mean a Tenzenkei? The figurine is a Sou no Shin (ceramic and religious) so perhaps matching it with a shin no sou jiita would work, but it feels to me at first glance as too contradictory and extreme in the differences of formality.
Do you consider the figurine formal? For me she is the only informal thing in the display.
I dont know Tensenkei and neither does Google , we must be of same mind.. hihihihihihii hi hi hii
I have never seen figurines placed on moss in formal Japanese displays. This idea seems like something more suited for an all encompassing bonkei style exhibit.
I have never seen Mary Magdalene in a Japanese display or even in a Japanese garden....
If you elevate the accent, wouldn't that further distract the viewers eye from the main tree? For me personally it would...
Our eyes are already distracted by the main tree... we only look at the scroll. The bonsai is so shuffeld in the corner that it remains as an afterthought.
I think if you used a scroll with a picture of a Star your message would have come through.
You fight against the idea of a Scroll in Hebrew for its against the rules of Japanese display. But then you use a Western Religious figurine......It doesnt make sense
Thank you for your thoughts and ideas.
Thank you and bless you.`
Love and light
Andre Beaurain- Member
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