American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Vance Wood wrote:
If the "accepted image" of bonsai is going to be something that you disagree with or find ugly then why do bonsai at all?  If your work is going to be the source of ridicule from the so called elite then why show it?  

May I interject a historical reason to your question. A look back on the history of art as well as the history of music quickly reveals that the rebel of today is the master of tomorrow. The painting style or the type of music follows this same pattern. If there were no rebels that were criticized then we would not have the master works of today. "then why show it?" I think the answer is clear.

Thanks Vance for your question to make us think.

WP's right: even in the south of France (their range here), I've never seen a Juniperus more than 2 metres tall...

AlainK wrote:WP's right: even in the south of France (their range here), I've never seen a Juniperus more than 2 metres tall...

Having said that do you not style these trees like they were/are something else other than the scrubby little tree you described?

I was walking down the street the other day and I came across a man who had a large cardboard box over his head. He was holding the box in place with both his hands while staggering around in circles, and he was crying out, "Where is this so-called SKY you speak of? Show me! Show me!!!

Vance Wood wrote:So far no one has posted a picture of a tree that they believe fulfills this mysterious and unattainable goal of a finished "Unfinished bonsai".  

I really don't mean to be like this but what can I say?  This is the way I am, I am hearing people wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  I don't care if you have one of the worlds greatest examples of the worlds greatest, least styled, bonsai or not, just the fact that you have the faith in it and belief in it enough to post it here.

Vance Wood wrote:Why do I have the feeling I am not going to get a picture of a bonsai illustrating this new old ideal for a finished bonsai?  

Vance Wood wrote:It seems to me we are faced with a conundrum;  decide whether it is better to be criticized for making a tree look like something that pleases you, or be criticized for not doing anything to a tree except putting it in a pot?  
...
I love Walter's trees but there are those, recently, who find they show human intervention and therefore are not really natural.

Jeeze Louise. Did we not already beat that horse to death, and then beat it for a good while after? Do we have to now exhume it and beat it some more? I am not up for that!

Here, let me save some time and quote myself, from this same thread, August of last year:

Arthur Joura wrote:Most of the people in bonsai who profess a dislike of Naturalism seem to have little or no idea of what Naturalism is. This can be discerned by the comments they make, even when they are not so honest as to admit up front that they do not know what it is. Many will use the word "natural" in place of Naturalism, as if the two are synonymous, which they are not. Some of these people will offer their own personal definition of what natural/naturalistic bonsai look like, and they talk about trees left looking all shaggy and unkempt and wild and anything goes, and calling your bonsai that is just an excuse for being lazy and not learning how to prune and wire correctly. For those who might care to know, here is a link to a dictionary definition of the term Naturalism: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naturalism And for those who care to go deeper, here is a link to the Wikipedia disambiguation page for Naturalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism The concept of Naturalism has existed for centuries, and is not some loosey-goosey marketing ploy made up by Walter Pall. If you go to the Wikipedia site you will find that Naturalism exists in philosophy, literature, theater, religion, politics, and certainly in visual art.

And if you need more clarification, try reading this post by Richard S. back in October: https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12772p645-american-bonsai-at-the-nc-arboretum#173895

As for how to go about creating a Naturalistic bonsai, there are too many posts on this thread to cite them all so here is a link to one that is specific to creating a naturalistic bonsai using juniper: https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12772p210-american-bonsai-at-the-nc-arboretum#154411 As it happens, this post also refers to the appearance of some junipers as full sized trees, AND makes the point about using junipers to mimic the appearance of pines.

Oh yes, and the repeated request for an image for a Naturalistic coniferous tree, one that illustrates what Walter means when he says "You look a real trees and do that. You create a 'tree'"? Turns out that has already been posted on this thread, too:



This Rocky Mountain Juniper (Juniperus scopulorum) by Dan Robinson fits the bill, does it not? It is exactly what you were repeatedly calling for, and it was there all the time! But it is impossible to show the sky to someone who insists on keeping a box over his head. I have nothing against you personally, Vance. I do not even know you, beyond your identity of being kind of the Andy Rooney of the bonsai forums. I am glad you read this thread and feel compelled to sometimes post, but if you want to challenge the world to show you something that has already been shown and explain something that has already been explained, and otherwise flog the dead horse until not a hair of it remains, please start your own thread for it. Thanks.


Alexandra - Thank you for continuing to follow this thread, and for leaving your recent comment. Yes, it is too bad the forum idea has been abandoned by so many bonsai people who used to engage with it, and no doubt social media has a lot to do with it. It is more difficult to operate within the forum construct because it is wide open to everyone and we are obliged to deal with them (see above.) Forums are very democratic, and democracy is messy and frustrating. But now I am repeating myself...

The friendly, uniting spirit of bonsai, as promoted by the late Mr. Kato, is a wonderful thing. It is not all-powerful, though. It must contend with other realities, such as greed, ego, aggression and ignorance, which are all to be found in the bonsai world as much as they are in the world at large. Ultimately in bonsai, and again this is so throughout all aspects of life as far as I can tell, it comes down to what a person chooses to focus on. At the NC Arboretum our bonsai focus is on the inspirational and restorative wonder of the human experience of nature, and the beauty of trees in particular. When it comes to the Carolina Bonsai Expo our purpose is to bring together people who enjoy the practice of making and growing bonsai, and giving them an opportunity to share what they do, not only with each other but also with the general public. We keep the focus as positive as possible, because that is the best way to promote enjoyment of anything. I think what we do with bonsai here at the NC Arboretum is exemplary. That is why I keep this thread and make the effort to share what we do with the bonsai community - in hopes of keeping that spirit alive. So no, I do not think that a positive bonsai philosophy is outdated and does not fit the contemporary scene. I think it comes down to what we make of it, and the world can always use more love and light. (Now I feel badly about chewing out Vance.)


Michael - What you wrote was of interest to me.

MichaelS wrote: ... I have many old pines in my area where I can ''copy'' some of their natural features and try to resist doing it the ''bonsai way''. Although I have to admit it is not easy to unlearn something you are so used to doing. Your hands work almost automatically without really thinking about what you're doing and you end up with yet another tree which looks like all the others. I can see that happening with nearly all the current demonstators both local and ''imported''
Problem No. 2: Styling a tree in this very individualistic (more natural way) is much more difficult to do because firstly every tree will be completely unique, and secondly it will probably take much more planning with lots of sketches and drawings so you know where the hell you are going over the years. I presume too that it will be much longer before you can exhibit your tree. If it is true that it is more difficult and takes longer does it follow that trying to do a demonstration will be also difficult as it will be impossible to end up with a ''finished'' tree in a couple of hours? Maybe you could make a start and then show everyone a a picture of the developed tree 10 years later? I wonder if an audience would like that!
Problem No3: Junipers. I don't think I have ever seen pictures of wild shimpaku anywhere. Maybe a few Japanese sketches. I know they must grow in every possible shape you can imagine on the cliffs but from what I have seen, it is very rare for the small branches at the tips to grow down or horizontally as they are usually shaped. They always seem to go up. So how should shimaku be shaped? ...
Problem No.4: Most of us only have nursery grown material to work with not collected stuff which makes things even more difficult. However I guess identifying the problems is the first step.....

I think you were directing your comments to Walter, but I hope you will not mind if I weigh in on some of what you said. I think you are completely right about having to unlearn so much of what we were taught if we want to do more naturalistic bonsai work. All of the technical stuff - how to wire, prune, grow the different species, etc. - is still necessary, but the aesthetic objective to which we apply the technical tools is completely different. Once you learn a certain way to do things and become comfortable doing them that way, it becomes reflexive and it is difficult to alter a reflex. It can be done, though, if a person thinks it is worth the doing. It is also true, in my opinion, that doing naturalistic bonsai is more difficult than doing bonsai in the more standard mode we were originally taught. Not only do you have to overcome the aforementioned reflexive way of thinking, but you have to figure out how to communicate your own experience of trees, and before that you have to have your own experience of trees. It is, as you say, very individualistic.

I cannot agree with the idea of sketches and drawings and an extraordinary amount of planning being so essential, however. I personally like drawing but never spend any time applying it to my bonsai work. A person can do that though, as Khaimraj does, and I am certain it could be an aid, but it is not compulsory. And as for planning, any style of bonsai requires that, right? The subject of demonstrations is an entire issue in its own right. I have seen Walter, Dan Robinson, John Geanangel and Ken Duncan all do naturalistic bonsai demonstrations, and I have done a few myself, so I know it is possible. I think they are better, really. They tend to be more realistic!

You also asked about how Shimpaku Juniper should be shaped, and the way you phrased your question made it seem as though you think that in order to do a naturalistic Shimpaku you must make it look like a Shimpaku in nature. Forgive my forwardness, but this idea is incorrect. The suggestive element that is central to the whole bonsai concept is not altered one bit in a naturalistic approach to bonsai styling. A Shimpaku can be made into a naturalistic interpretation of a maple tree, if that is what the grower wants to do. I do not think that would look so good, but it is doable. A Shimpaku shaped as a pine or a tree-form juniper, as it typically is in Classical and Neo-classical bonsai, will also work very well done in a Naturalistic style.

The fourth problem you cite is one with which I am most familiar. Very few of the bonsai in the NC Arboretum collection started out being collected as aged trees from the wild. Many of our bonsai were made from plants grown from seed or "collected" from the nursery. Naturalistic style is in no way dependent on starting with wild collected trees. This post has reached the verbiage saturation point, so I will show some photographs to illustrate the point and come back to it later. Thank you for your post.

The following images are all of a Red Maple (Acer rubrum) I have been training since 2006. It was collected from the woods but it was not old or in any way unique. It was approximately 7ft. (2.13m) in height and I would guess no more than 10 years in age. I started out with a twin-trunk stump.

Here is the first photograph I have of it, made in April of 2011:



Here is a 360-degree view before a recent pruning session:









Here is how it appears today, after being repotted 2 days ago:



I will post more on this specimen tomorrow.

I am surprised at you Arthur.  That seems to be a really condescending attitude from someone whom God has blessed with such a wonderful job.  I feel that somehow you were thinking there was something personal going on here, in attempt to embarrass or belittle you.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  I'm sorry if I offended you, that was not my intent.  

My wife and I visited your arboretum this last summer, I'm sorry you were not there. I would have liked to have met you. The arboretum staff had to go looking for the key to let us in understanding we drove 500 miles to come and see it.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my humble comment, Mr. Joura

Arthur Joura wrote:... ...The friendly, uniting spirit of bonsai, as promoted by the late Mr. Kato, is a wonderful thing. It is not all-powerful, though. It must contend with other realities, such as greed, ego, aggression and ignorance, which are all to be found in the bonsai world as much as they are in the world at large. Ultimately in bonsai, and again this is so throughout all aspects of life as far as I can tell, it comes down to what a person chooses to focus on... ...
So no, I do not think that a positive bonsai philosophy is outdated and does not fit the contemporary scene. I think it comes down to what we make of it, and the world can always use more love and light.

I understand what you mean. Undoubtedly our world is not ideal but as long as there are individuals who choose to use "more love and light" as you put it, then this world becomes tolerable.

I always feel like a beginner in knowledge (see my signature), hence I am not in a position to decide whether bonsai is art or craft of hobby or whatever.
I follow with persistence threads like this (mostly not participating) or others dealing with art fundamentals and how they apply to bonsai but I do not care much about bonsai forms. My main concern is to style my trees in the best way for them to reveal their character. So I end up with naturalistic way of doing bonsai being my preference and what I do I do for myself and I feel immensely happy looking at my trees growing healthy.
I sincerely hope that a day will come for our local Hellenic Bonsai Society to act in a way similar to Carolina Bonsai Expo. For the moment we are doing this in miniature.


P.S.: the language barrier might cause comprehensive problems, I'm afraid... English is not my mother language

[quote="Arthur Joura"]

I cannot agree with the idea of sketches and drawings and an extraordinary amount of planning being so essential, however. I personally like drawing but never spend any time applying it to my bonsai work. A person can do that though, as Khaimraj does, and I am certain it could be an aid, but it is not compulsory. And as for planning, any style of bonsai requires that, right?

Arthur, Thanks for taking an interest in my post. As we both agree, styling bonsai (and I'm taking about conifers exclusively at the moment) in the conventional contemporary way now presents few difficulties in most cases. There are innumerable articles, countless demonstrations and our own study and practice so most of us have reached a stage where shaping the material has become almost second nature. We select the main branch, bring it down, wire the secondary and tertiary branches into a spreading fan shape and continue up the tree until we reach the top which is rounded off. All very nice...
As I mentioned earlier this separation and spreading of branches is not only done for aesthetic reasons but also horticultural ones in that it is obviously essential that all green areas of the plant receive their share of light. Without that of course it is a matter of time before you get the inner parts dying back. Many conifers growing naturally have branches only at their tips with the rest bare. Basically, just letting the tree just grow, sooner or later you end up with the above. This state of affairs is obviously unexeptable in a bonsai. So then, what are our options? We could keep the tree very open at all times such as the Dan Robinson example above. This will keep light penetration to a good level without question but I have problems with this tree as it is. I like the wild appearence of the tree but the scant foliage does not convey to me the feeling of robust vigor I seek in the image. It gives me a feeling of ''are you going to live or are you going to die?'' Therefore, I would look to increase it's density many times. At least twice or possibly three times the amount. Now...without the aforementioned layers, we come across the issue of how to maintain good horticulture. Continuing to allow enough light penetration into not just the next year but the distant future. The principle is the same but the execution is (must be) different. So after all that, my question is how do we arrange the branches in such a way as to achieve 1* Best horticultural practice, 2* maintain a pleasing density of foliage and 3* avoid the usual arrangement of layering branches in pines and junipers?
In other words, it is one thing to style the tree in a more natural arrangement but we also need to consider and plan for the continuing development and (hopefully) improvement as the year pass. If the tree cannot be improved past a certain stage due to practical horticultural reasons then something is wrong.

This is Walter's pine (Walter I hope you don't mind me using it in this discussion)
I have been keeping an eye on the development of this tree. I like it. It is improving as the years pass. Obviously it is being styled with a natural image in mind. Naturally it is becoming more dense. How will it look in 20 years? Will layers begin to form? Will it need to be mainly maintained by pruning to keep this kind of detail? etc. etc. I have a few Scots Pines which I plan on shaping in a less conventional way but I find I need to have some kind of vision in to keep in mind for the future. It is almost as if we need to think of broad leaf branch structure.

You also asked about how Shimpaku Juniper should be shaped, and the way you phrased your question made it seem as though you think that in order to do a naturalistic Shimpaku you must make it look like a Shimpaku in nature. Forgive my forwardness, but this idea is incorrect.

Not exactly. In fact from some of the sketches done in the field by Japanese collectors I have seen, shimpaku can grow in any conceivable form according to it's position on the mountain. Growing from a fissure on a sheer cliff face and totally exposed to every rock fall, they may grow metres long, hang straight down with a small tuft of leaves on the very tip. On a shelf, with overhead protection, an fairly upright shrub. What interests me more is the natural arrangement of the branch tips and the foliage and how this may be adapted to bonsai.

A Shimpaku shaped as a pine or a tree-form juniper, as it typically is in Classical and Neo-classical bonsai, will also work very well done in a Naturalistic style.

Please explain this further if you could.

for someone of my novice station in bonsai (coming into my 5th full-on growing season), this thread is invaluable...

i came into this endeavor with the initial idea of NOT wanting to do japanese style bonsai, though i could not exactly put my finger on why i bucked against what was essentially all that was being done here in the milwaukee bonsai society... then AJ came to do a talk and a demo here (at a most opportune time for me) and he helped clarify for me what it is that did not resonate with me in regards to japanese bonsai and that is: cultural reference.

i grew up when there was only a couple hours a day of TV programming aimed at kids, and no digital diversions, so i grew up playing in the woods and climbing trees... i played in pine forests of the wisconsin dells, and deciduous forests that are very numerous around here...

that is my cultural reference point and my vision of naturalism...

i am glad that i realized that very early on before i had too much to unlearn (as discussed here)

now i just need to learn how to apply that to my trees and that seems extremely more difficult that "1st branch, 2nd branch", etc, etc, ad nauseum... and my efforts will be a long time coming to fruition, but thats ok (my doctor promised to get me to 80 years old... only catch is i should do what he tells me to do... hhhmmm decisions, decisions )

my nellie wrote:Undoubtedly our world is not ideal but as long as there are individuals who choose to use "more love and light" as you put it, then this world becomes tolerable.

probably needless to say, but we all know who really gets credit for the phrase "love and light"

heck, he even has his own emoticon

Picking up where I left off yesterday, here is a slow tour completely around this Red Maple (Acer rubrum) in clockwise rotation:

















Here is a detail shot of the area at the top of what had been the taller of the two stumps when the tree was originally cut back, showing complete callous coverage of the large, V-notch cut:



This particular Red Maple is one of the yellow autumn color variety. Mostly I prefer the red autumn coloring for this species, but this one happened to be yellow:



I had the round container, 18in (45.7cm) diameter, 4in (10.1cm) depth, custom-made for this bonsai by Pennsylvania potter Ross Adams. I really admire the glazing, which reminds me of a sunset in the mountains:



In this case, the design model for the bonsai is the typical growth pattern of Red Maple occurring in nature, as it would do when it has some room to spread out:



It was not modeled after the above specimen or any other particular tree, but rather a general conception of how the species grows, based on much accumulated observation. Red Maples are extremely common in eastern North America, but usually shunned by bonsai enthusiasts because they have been told the species is no good for bonsai use.

I offer this tree as an illustration of Naturalistic design for a broadleaf bonsai, developed from young material. It was originally collected from the forest, as mentioned, but it could just as well have been grown from seed or been purchased as a landscape specimen from a nursery. The important point is that it was conceived to be Naturalistic from the beginning and was not sent in that direction because it was an old collected tree that had many difficult structural problems, as is often the case. This also illustrates that naturalistic bonsai are heavily worked, and not wild, unkempt trees simply stuffed into bonsai pots.

The oldest and newest images of this tree, side by side for comparative analysis of 5 years worth of development:

 


Michael - I started out to answer your questions and quickly found it will take more time than I currently have. I will turn my attention to that at first opportunity.

Kevin - Thank you for the testimonial! Making a personal connection to bonsai is critical in securing new adherents to it.

Alexandra - You make yourself perfectly understood. My hat is off to you for being the one to bridge the language divide between us.

Sam - A Northern Appalachian will hug an Albanian, for sure, but they will hug anything that cannot run away. In the Southern Appalachians we are more selective, and evaluate it on a case-by-case basis!

Great progression, thanks for this post and for this thread! That is a great example of what we can all hope to achieve with Rubrum as Bonsai... I have far too many of these lying around, only one is anywhere close to a "Bonsai", but your tree makes me think maybe I have a shot at making something out of all of them!

Have you experienced branch die back over winter with these? how would you compare their ability to tolerate root work to other Maples more commonly used for Bonsai.. Say Palmatum? I have found JM to take all sorts of insults when working on their roots in stride, but Rubrum seems a bit more... Particular to me.

Walter Pall wrote:Well Kevin, as you may have read on another forum compared to me Marc is a REAL professional while I am just badass, whatever that is. So he should be much more expensive than I am. We can discuss this in April at Hidden Gardens.
Listen to Tom, it will be fun.

Badass means you are the top of the heap by far. It's a good term. I'm probably the one who actually posted that on the other forum. It's good not bad at all.
In my opinion,Walter you are the best.

Arthur Joura wrote:
(...)
The oldest and newest images of this tree, side by side for comparative analysis of 5 years worth of development:

 
(...)

I love it, it looks very natural to me.

At first, I thought I would have put the first branch on the left a bit more upward, but I made a virt and I'm not sure any longer now. I think yours wins 6 to 4

Thank you,Mr,Joura for the great progression.I have followed this thread very happily and continue to do so.You have had a profound effect on me.Your work is beyond price.Don't worry to much about your comments to Vance Wood. He is busy whining about you on BNut and getting soothed by his cronies.

How wonderful of you Geo, to point that out.  I address subjects when they are brought up to me  (if I am aware of them) and where they are brought up to me.  You have a problem with what I am saying over at Bnut address it on Bnut.   I'm not whining about anybody however; if that were so what do you call what you are doing/--- and what do you present as the evidence of Arthurs displeasure?  Have you read this thread???  Go back to where Arthur is complaing that he believes Walter is ignoring him.  I responded to that remark.  Go through my responses and comments from that point on and tell me where I did something offensive, rude, obscene, gross, or God forbid; politically incorrect.

I'll help you: It starts on page 49 With Arthurs complaint that Walter was ignoring him. Walter responds and from there we started a conversation about refined styles and natural styles. You tell me where I went wrong?

thanks for the 360 AJ... i see some of what "the establishment" (aka "the man") might pick apart, but thankfully that does not matter to you...

geo wrote:Don't worry to much about your comments to Vance Wood. He is busy whining about you on BNut and getting soothed by his cronies.

i for one have a lot of respect for vance... partly because, like arthur, he is not selfish with his knowledge, so i hope that this is not quite the case george...

Sam Ogranaja wrote:Arthur - I'll close with an inside joke. I have a hug in store for you next time I see you, or do Appalachians not hug Albanians either?

Arthur Joura wrote:Sam - A Northern Appalachian will hug an Albanian, for sure, but they will hug anything that cannot run away. In the Southern Appalachians we are more selective, and evaluate it on a case-by-case basis!

yeah but sam has a habit of standing someone up when they have a hug date !!!

whoops - looks like a cross post w/ vances reply...

no offence to you george, but vance does deserve some respect (IMNSHO)

Thank You, that is appreciated.

I have read every page of this thread Mr. Wood. I do not need the likes of you to explain it to me, And as for my posting about your messages on BNut here:why don't you take your own advice and post your comments about an IBC thread on IBC,instead of doing it on BNut?

geo wrote:...the likes of you...

george - what gives ???
i guess its none of my business, but it is a public forum...
do you and vance got a beef carrying over here from that other forum ?

Maybe we can leave the bnut hostility at the door...?

Arthur, thanks for posting about your red maple. The more I've seen of this species, the more I want to find one to try as I do like to experiment with native trees (I'm playing around with black locust, sweetgum, redbud, tulip poplar, sumac, aspen...why not?) I'd definitely want one that turns red in the fall, though...already have lots of yellow species.

Chris

geo wrote:I have read every page of this thread Mr. Wood. I do not need the likes of you to explain it to me, And as for my posting about your messages on BNut here:why don't you take your own advice and post your comments about an IBC thread on IBC,instead of doing it on BNut?

What was posted on Bnut was asked by someone else on Bnut. Listen you little pile of escrement, these remarks originated here, the snide reference was published here. I have been posting here for many years. Ill tell you what: when you have contributed as much to bonsai in information and technique maybe you can tell me what to do or where to go, you may not need the likes of me to tell you anything, I will go out of my way to make sure I do not, and I sure don't need someone who in five years wont even be doing bonsai telling me what to do or where to go.

beer city snake wrote:

geo wrote:...the likes of you...

george - what gives ???
i guess its none of my business, but it is a public forum...
do you and vance got a beef carrying over here from that other forum ?

First I have known about it, but I don't take crap from anyone.

beer city snake wrote:

geo wrote:...the likes of you...

george - what gives ???
i guess its none of my business, but it is a public forum...
do you and vance got a beef carrying over here from that other forum ?

If I knew what the deal was I would make it your business.

Vance Wood wrote:If I knew what the deal was I would make it your business.  

oh yeah ? well i dont need the likes of you telling me my business !!!

i popped over to the bnut forum outta curiosity...

its like the wild wild wild west over there !!!

i think 90% of these perceived slights are based on typed words that would not be misinterpreted as easily if they were spoken instead of typed...

vance - i dont think arthur felt that walter was snubbing him... i think they know each other well enough to bust each others balls a little bit and walk away smiling afterwards...

and arthur maybe came a bit hard at you, (c'mon man... andy rooney ???) but the question you asked was addressed in this thread, but one would have had to be following the thread as it moved along rather than coming in towards the end without back reading, so he was probably a bit frustrated at the repeatedly repeated repetition ... (and i'm just assuming you didnt read the whole thread based on your requests for naturalistic examples)

and george ? i dunno... maybe just coming to arthurs defense ?
if so, probably unnecessary as AJ obviously has the verbal chops to handle himself

anyways, i believe this is a good example of the typed word not equaling the spoken one...

at least i hope so, as all 3 of yous guys seem like good guys (although i have only met arthur in person and have gotten to know him some from my visits with him)... george - its unlikely i will make it down to baja as much as i would like to, but vance - i hope to hang out with you one day... (maybe this spring at leo's blueberry farm for the ABS thing)... and all this reminds me of a thread topic for the contemplations section...

I have read the last few pages since Arthur be able to evoke a response from Walter again, and since then this thread becomes lively again.  I as my own personal interpretation, there was no way Vance tried to evoke or challenge Arthur or Walter validity on this thread because time and time again both are backing up what they said though their works .  I felt more of Vance challenging for all other "big" talking heads backing up their talks by also showing their works.  I fell sad for the misunderstanding from Arthur with some hash words with Vance.  I was waiting for Arthur to response to Vance's later post but so far it was silence, and now George also joints the quarrel so I am compelling to explain with the way I see it.

I stated before about the golden rule:  The ones with golds make the rules, and obviously we all know who have the golds to establish validity for this thread.  I don't see anybody on IBC can compel to challenge Arthur or Walter of their vast knowledge and approach in the way they pursue their visions.  About three months ago, this thread at some point became uncivilized and unbearable for quite a few readers because of "Big" talks and challenge directly to both Walter and Arthur of the way they approach in shaping their bonsai, Vance wasn't part of that.  Vance stated that he drove from Michigan to North Carolina to see Arthur works, that is big admiration from Vance toward Arthur for him compelling in doing so. [/url]