American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

The stone in question has a natural drainage pattern built into its shape that allows gravity to successfully pull off excess water. However, even if it was completely flat it would not need a drainage hole because the soil mass is not in a container. There is a circular berm of muck covered with moss that acts in a way similar to the walls of a pot in that it keeps the soil from washing off the stone when water is applied, but water can pass through muck and moss. So, the soil mass can drain off even when sitting on an impermeable bottom.

By the way, that information will cost you $20.

Hello Walter,

I had to go back and look to verify this, but your last contribution to this open correspondence was at the end of October. I answered you the following week and since then there has been no communication between us. I am satisfied no misfortune has befallen you because I see you are still posting regularly to your blog and you even regularly check in as a reader on the IBC forum. I am glad to know you are apparently alive and well, and I hope you have been able to get out to your beloved mountains for some skiing. I wonder, though, why have you dropped out of our conversation?

It could well be you are simply too busy to give it any thought. After all, you continue to roam the globe, sharing your vast knowledge with an adoring public, and posting to your blog and maintaining the many world-class bonsai in your extensive collection, and surely these activities demand a great deal of your available time. Of course, you were doing all these things before and still writing back and forth with me on this thread, so I do not think that could be the sole reason. I see you will soon be headlining a weeklong bonsai convention in Germany that goes by the name "Generation Bonsai 2016". As I gather from some advertising I saw, you will be reviewing and passing judgement on the next generation of world bonsai artists. This is an awesome responsibility and no doubt you will have to prepare yourself mightily for such an undertaking! That could be where most of your time is going nowadays, and yet I do not think that is the reason for your silence, either. A man of your enormous energy and ambition can easily carry such a workload, one that would simply crush a person of normal abilities, and still have the time to engage in a minor activity such as corresponding with one of your many admirers, if you chose to do so.

This leads me to the uncomfortable consideration that something I wrote may have offended you. Reading back over my last open letter to you I realize this could possibly be the case as I said several things that might be construed as "cheeky", or perhaps even disrespectful. But then again there is good cause to doubt this as a reason for your lack of response. You are, after all, a self-professed person of the thickest skin, your hide tougher than an overcooked steak. Back in the days of the Great Bonsai Forum Flame Wars you were famous for standing tall against the most vile of personal insult, then sloughing it off and destroying your detractors with a lethal dose of their own medicine. No, I cannot flatter myself to think I ran you off with insult. Besides, I would never show you any sincere disrespect.

Having so dispatched of all the above possibilities, with what am I left? I must conclude your silence speaks of indifference. You are no longer responding to me because of the most pitiful of all possible reasons: You have become bored of our conversation and moved on. I sigh most deeply at this depressing realization. Would that I could crawl off somewhere and lick my wounded pride in solitude! However, for better or for worse it is my annoying habit to doggedly seek completion in the tasks I undertake, and this project was a public conversation with you, aimed toward a meaningful statement about bonsai philosophy. I do not think we reached that objective. But you played along for a good while and contributed valuable perspective that few others could have provided, not to mention considerable visibility through your worldwide fame and reputation. Thank you for doing that! We stirred up some interest among the IBC community and I think a few good thoughts from other people came out of it, so the venture was not without value as it it. I could say it was satisfactorily concluded if only it had not ended with an ellipsis...  

To my mind, this letter takes care of that. If you have any interest in resuming the conversation, you know where to find me.

With or without your participation, however, I will soldier on like a lone elephant to the point I set out to make.

Arthur Joura wrote:By the way, that information will cost you $20.

now THAT was funny...
literally laughing out loud...

but the way some things trending, $20 sounds reasonable

Arthur Joura wrote:With or without your participation, however, I will soldier on like a lone elephant to the point I set out to make.

and that's a shame because in walter's own words he referred to the TWO of you as the elephants who stride along and do not even recognize all the hyenas cackling from the underbrush... or something very close to that effect.

many of us hyenas would love to see the discourse continue...

Is it not possible that your are perceiving a problem where there is only a miscommunication?

Arthur you really need to become an author of fiction illustrating your own works.

Turn the fireplace up and stay warm my friend.

Dear Arthur,

with some sort of shock I read your last post. So far in my internet career I was pleaded guilty for writing something quite often. Now I am pleaded guilty for not writing anything.
Well, my silence had nothing to do with our relationship or anything you said. Or maybe you said something along the lines that you needed a break and then we would see. I take it that your sabbatical is over now.
As you write I have no problem  in stirring up this place in parallel to my many other projects.

I came back from Noelanders Trophy ladst night. Another big weekend again. This by now is a monster show. It is in a large Fair Ground with big halls, parking lots for hundreds. There were 85 or so traders with large booths! Over 30 potters all in one convention! The number and quality of offered trees and materiel is mind blowing. A real lot of good to outstanding Japanese trees, like offered in the famous Green Club were there. Plus endless European trees, homegrown of collected. A few thousand visitors. and up to a hundred folks who showed trees. And lots of young people!

It is good to see that bonsai at least appears to be big business. While we can complain about the influence of money in our 'hobby' it helps a lot to some. The money somehow does not find me though. But that is another discussion. It is mainly because I am doing this in a more playful manner. I have the enormous luck of not needing to have an income from bonsai. This makes me free  in many respects. One is to be able to say what I am thinking.

I was not so happy about some trees with plastic crowns winning again. But the judging results are always an enigma anyway. it is really over rated. I am personally beyond striving for trophies (while I would still take one if offered). This is not about me, it is  more about the signal to the young people. At the moment the signal in Europe is: Get very good material with lots of deadwood from Japan, put a plastic top on it. Paint the deadwood bone-white.  Buy a very good finished broadleaved tree in Japan. And you will win.
I do not think that this should be the message - while it is.

The messages from the  Artisans Cup or Bill Valavanis' Show are better in this respect, I think. And, of course the message from the Carolina Expo is something else again - much closer to my heart.

I will indeed work for Generation Bonsai in Germany by the end of March. This came as much of a surprise to me too. Generation Bonsai was invented as the revolutionary place for the young guys protesting against the bonsai establishment. They want to show that they are much better and that THEY will rule the bonsai world much sooner than the establishment had hoped. Now miraculously I am on a big poster with the biggest head. Someone said that this looks like 'The Glorious Severn' and I look like John Wayne. Nice to hear. A wise person on another forum wrote that it a shame that my head is bigger as I have no right for this as the others are so much more  talented and humble and I am an a...le anyway. This is much more constructive and more to the matter, of course, and educates the readers to not follow the wrong leaders.

I will report what actually is going on there. If you are interested I will even write about my own role, if I ever find out.

greetings
WP

Thank You Walter for taking the time to write this.  I learned a lot.

Could you clarify what you mean by plastic tops on bonsai trees? I think you are probably referring to these highly refined triangle formations put on tops of trees but I would like to know, specifically, what you mean.

Vance,

that's exactly what I mean. Tops which are made by people who apparently never in their life have seen a real tree, but many modern bonsai. Tops that actually look like they are of plastic, so exact and over-refined. And then all cookie cutter. The same top for just about any kind of tree. While I may have been guilty of the same I now look a them with horror. And then the majority is WAY too dense. This makes them even more odd and the trunk looses character and strength because the top takes it away.
I am pretty sure, looking at art history in general, that in twenty years from now they will not believe what we thought to be good.

Walter Pall wrote:Vance,

that's exactly what I mean. Tops which are made by people who apparently never in their life have seen a real tree, but many modern bonsai. Tops that actually look like they are of plastic, so exact and over-refined. And then all cookie cutter. The same top for just about any kind of tree. While I may have been guilty of the same I now look a them with horror. And then the majority is WAY too dense. This makes them even more odd and the trunk looses character and strength because the top takes it away.
I am pretty sure, looking at art history in general, that in twenty years from now they will not believe what we thought to be good.

I agree. So often I have seen a tree displayed right after it has been worked on and they look wonderful. You can see the trunk and the branches, and they look like trees with just enough stylization to make them look pleasing. Give them a year and they start looking as you have described. I am glad to know that I am headed in the right direction ---- at least in your eyes which means something to me.

Hi,

Walter Pall wrote:At the moment the signal in Europe is: Get very good material with lots of deadwood from Japan, put a plastic top on it. Paint the deadwood bone-white. Buy a very good finished broadleaved tree in Japan. And you will win.

Walter Pall wrote:At the moment the signal in Europe is: Get very good material with lots of deadwood from Japan, put a plastic top on it. Paint the deadwood bone-white.  Buy a very good finished broadleaved tree in Japan. And you will win.
I do not think that this should be the message - while it is.

The messages from the  Artisans Cup or Bill Valavanis' Show are better in this respect, I think.

welcome back walter !

i am curious about what the difference is between what you wrote about europe and what you wrote about the artisans cup...
(i am unfamiliar w/ bill's show so i am not referencing that one)

from what i have seen of the artisans cup, before, during and after (and by extension bonsai mirai), it would seem that the message is essentially the same as you describe in europe, that being: $$$ = bonsai success and trophy.

however, in regards to the carolina expo, i couldnt agree with you more (which is why i traveled from wisconsin for the show this past year and will do so again)... the carolina show has a very humble and "earthy" vibe and i perceived no pretenses that would make the common person feel anything but welcome to give this endeavor a "go"... to the contrary, it was the people involved along with the talent on hand that really makes that show great (imho).

thanks for your time
kevin (beer city hyena )

Kevin,

the difference is that the message from the Artisans Cup is:

go get the best piece of American material, if possible a mighty conifer with lots of deadwood, have it styled by a big name or make your own crown. In case of doubt it should be a crown like Ryan Neil makes them (not plastic!!!) or just purchase a monster tree and you will win.
This still sounds a bit cynical, but it is better than the European message (at the moment) because there you just purchase a Japanese tree. I have the feeling that this could change though next time. At least broadleaved trees will probably or hopefully get much more recognition (as they do at Noelanders Trophy already).

The difference is that in Europe we can purchase outstanding Japanese trees with comparative ease and much less money that we used to. And we had two Japanese judges this year. BTW. this was for the fist time in sixteen years. Imagine: the Noelanders Trophy became what it is today without any Japanese artist until this year. While modern bonsai style is Japanese bonsai styling in Europe ( or America) but done by Europeans (or Americans).

Walter Pall wrote:Vance,

that's exactly what I mean. Tops which are made by people who apparently never in their life have seen a real tree, but many modern bonsai. Tops that actually look like they are of plastic, so exact and over-refined. And then all cookie cutter. The same top for just about any kind of tree. While I may have been guilty of the same I now look a them with horror. And then the majority is WAY too dense. This makes them even more odd and the trunk looses character and strength because the top takes it away.
I am pretty sure, looking at art history in general, that in twenty years from now they will not believe what we thought to be good.

I agree with this. That the tops of all these modern coniferous creations are pretty much interchangable is very true. Any potential character or uniqueness which they may have had has been done away with. Perfect rounded tops with the bottom of the foliage areas so clean and straight that you could use it for a level.
We have a Kimura disciple coming to visit here soon. Everyone is very excited and tripping over themselves to book a workshop. I am almost (but not quite) embaressed to say I'm not really interested to them. There is no one that has even mentioned this subject. It is inevitable that one day the current fashion for these ''perfect'' trees will fall away.
I found it interesting when I was looking through an old Bonsai Today (No.51 page51) that even back in 1997 Tomio Yamada had the wisdom to treat an old White pine with respect and not to use any wire when he worked on it. I wonder what the ''modern artists would do with this tree?? In my opinion, probably ruin it.

I think we have to be careful that we don't allow the pendulum to swing too far the other way.  The White Pine you mention was beautiful to begin with and I would venture to say it was probably an uncommon subject to work on.  With a tree like this you can probably get away with no wire, but a lot of the trees you and I are likely to encounter will need wire.

Vance Wood wrote:I think we have to be careful that we don't allow the pendulum to swing too far the other way.  The White Pine you mention was beautiful to begin with and I would venture to say it was probably an uncommon subject to work on.  With a tree like this you can probably get away with no wire, but a lot of the trees you and I are likely to encounter will need wire.

Yes agreed but I have seen examples of other such old tree types completely restyled with lots of wire to seemingly just bring them into conformity with the modern standard.
Another example; (BT 35 page 10) To my way of thinking, the restyling in 1980 compared to 1978 or even earlier sees a tree which has been ''tamed'' into a green mountain with disregard of the finer details which could express the age and natural dignity of the tree. Trees don't really look like this except perhaps in a manicured Japanese garden. A step in the wrong direction IMO. Of course don't ask me how you would go about styling a tree like that to give an image of a true wild weather beaten specimen. I wouldn't have a clue. Maybe it's just too hard? It's certainly much easier to arrange the branches into neat and clean pads. Consideration of the tree's health always has to be kept in mind too so excessive thining is out of the question.
Maybe Walter has an idea on how you could approach this problem which is mainly specific to juniper and pine?

MichaelS wrote:Maybe Walter has an idea on how you could approach this problem which is mainly specific to juniper and pine?

I have a solution, buzt it is not very popular with many:

Just think what makes a 'good' bonsai: Triangular crown, levels where the bird can fly though, very clean placement of foliage to form clean, almost geometric lines, rounded top which is rather dense, one lowest branch which is going much more downward than the rest and leaves a strong gap, deadwood very well behaved, but impressive, white like chalk, if possible scratched bark which is red. The overall image as much as possible looking like a 'bonsai' done by KImura.

OK, all this you DON'T do. You look a real trees and do that. You create a 'tree'

Walter Pall wrote:

MichaelS wrote:Maybe Walter has an idea on how you could approach this problem which is mainly specific to juniper and pine?

I have a solution, buzt it is not very popular with many:

Just think what makes a 'good' bonsai: Triangular crown, levels where the bird can fly though, very clean placement of foliage to form clean, almost geometric lines, rounded top which is rather dense, one lowest branch which is going much more downward than the rest and leaves a strong gap, deadwood very well behaved, but impressive, white like chalk, if possible scratched bark which is red. The overall image as much as possible looking like a 'bonsai' done by KImura.

OK, all this you DON'T do. You look a real trees and do that. You create a 'tree'

i just knew there was an easy was to go about this !!! thanks walter !!!

Walter Pall wrote: the difference is that the message from the Artisans Cup is:

go get the best piece of American material, if possible a mighty conifer with lots of deadwood, have it styled by a big name or make your own crown... or just purchase a monster tree and you will win.
This still sounds a bit cynical, but it is better than the European message (at the moment) because there you just purchase a Japanese tree.

thanks also for your reply to this question... while i do see some distinction in what you stated, it still comes around to $$$ (regardless of the current tastes in style based on global location)... "getting" a mighty conifer and "having it styled by a big name" would cost thousands and does not sound much different from buying a finished tree from japan... true ?

Well, Kevin, it is slightly better. But it is as it is. We have to get used to it. In Europe we are used to this since the past millennium. It is normal here. But it is still worthwhile to question ths status quo once ina while, I think.

Tops which are made by people who apparently never in their life have seen a real tree, but many modern bonsai. Tops that actually look like they are of plastic, so exact and over-refined. And then all cookie cutter. The same top for just about any kind of tree (emphasis added)

Not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back, but those who know me know that I've been saying this about Japanese, European and many American trees for 20 years.  (pat pat)

I hope no one take the position that I am looking for an argument because that is not true. However; I find myself in the difficult position of wanting desperately to understand what you are saying and not having any examples of your work to clarify your point. Could you, or anyone please post a picture of a tree that you/anyone believes achieves this amorphous goal?

Great discussion everyone! Would one of you mind taking pictures of the two Bonsai Today trees mentioned? I just checked and unfortunately I don't have either issue #51 or #35.

All this business about looking at trees and being observant about how they are put together, and using that to inform your bonsai design work rather than copying the established vogue, is a consistent theme of this entire thread.

Two years ago, way back on page 13, I put up a post that looked at children's artwork depicting trees. (Here is a link: https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12772p180-american-bonsai-at-the-nc-arboretum#153198) I thought of this today, after reading the exchange of the previous few posts made by Walter and the others who were responding to him. In my post referencing the tree drawings of children was an observation I did not directly make, but rather implied and left to readers to find for themselves, or not find, as the case might be.



Now I will state it plainly:

When children draw green lollipops to represent trees they are revealing a lack of understanding regarding the anatomical facts of tree structure. They have never spent any time paying attention to how trees are built, and they are relying on an established shorthand for representing them: a green ball on top of a brown stick. Those children who have been more observant of the natural example will invariably produce representations of trees containing more references to how trees actually look, and therefore less like green lollipops. Such an image may be not one bit more artistic than a standard green ball atop a brown stick, but it will reflect a better appreciation of the subject matter. Children who have some greater degree of artistic ability will produce a more compelling image, whether or not their picture contains an appreciable amount of observed tree information. So, an artistic child can work within the green lollipop format and create an image that is beautiful and well designed. It is also possible, although comparatively rare, for a child to combine observation of nature with a sense of artistic design and produce an image that succeeds on both counts. My own personal preference is for just such an effort, because I am attracted to trees.

When bonsai enthusiasts make bonsai trees they exhibit a pattern in many ways identical to that which can be observed in children's tree drawings. The great majority, I think, create a type of lollipop tree that reflects little or no sensitivity to how trees in nature actually look. When they do this they are following an established shorthand for representing trees in the bonsai medium. There are a small handful of people who do this with some greater degree of artistic ability, including a tiny minority who have extraordinary artistic ability. These extraordinary people are still by and large making a type of lollipop tree, containing little or no sensitivity to how trees in nature actually look, but they are doing it with such artistic skill that their work deserves the accolades it attracts. Again, though, the great majority of people in bonsai are making lollipop trees that reflect little or no sensitivity to how trees in nature actually look, and they are doing so with little or no genuine artistic skill.

Artistry cannot be taught. A person has the level of artistic ability they have, and that can be brought out through study and practice, but the ability itself cannot be manufactured.

Observation of nature can be taught. A person who is unobservant to begin with can become keenly observant, if they want to and work at it.

Arthur Joura wrote:

Artistry cannot be taught. A person has the level of artistic ability they have, and that can be brought out through study and practice, but the ability itself cannot be manufactured.

Observation of nature can be taught. A person who is unobservant to begin with can become keenly observant, if they want to and work at it.

Can not agree more with you Arthur.  I said it once before that many bonsai hobbyists got lost in the woods for strongly follow nature as guidelines.  Picasso was train to draw beautiful human figures and established in his early works by more than capable in doing so, yet abandoned it all to draw human figures anything resemblance of the real of it.  Many different view point have been brought up in this thread, agree or disagree, one main fact always constant that bonsai is an art.

One thing that often bother me in my dreams/nightmares is Alice Walton brought one of her famous painting that she has been collecting to a show/competition and walked away with a ginormous trophy with a big smirk on her face.  In the early morning after waking up, there are bonsai in my garden waving in the wind with bird chirping... oblivion to my dreams, and that is the reality. Two art mediums with two distinctive cultures. Thanks Arthur, Walter, and everybody putting efforts for beautiful and lively discussions on this thread.

van

Bonsoir,

Arthur Joura wrote:
(...) Observation of nature can be taught. (...)

Not so sure about that.

Some will always go mainstream because of their "education": some will never be able but to reproduce what they've been taught, without a modicus of critical thought, no personal point of view.

Since they're the majority the others are freaks and don't deserve to belong to a self-reproducing elite.

It's like religion(s), and those who want to shake off the burden of conventions are libeled as freaks.

And must be eliminated to keep the purity of the group...

Just forrr a laugh (???):