First bonsai help needed

Yeah, Mopane grows in the Zambezi valley I think. No worries, I'll keep looking (Or I might ask you again in 6 months to keep your eyes peeled).

As for leatherbacks:

https://www.google.com/search?q=leatherback&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch

Cheers,

Jelle.

I think that front brunch looks weird...the more I look at it the more I want to chop it.
It bothers me...Is that bonsai material or not? It has its own roots, but it is joined to the main trunk.

leatherback wrote:Yeah, Mopane grows in the Zambezi valley I think. No worries, I'll keep looking (Or I might ask you again in 6 months to keep your eyes peeled).

As for leatherbacks:

https://www.google.com/search?q=leatherback&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch

Cheers,

Jelle.

OOOO! It is a turtle!
How nice.
I will not forget about the mopane...I wish I can dig one and send it to You...better than seed. Is that possible?

Nope. This is horrible. Don't use it for bonsai. Ship it to germany instead

(And yeas, I would love to have access to something like that. Would make a great tree, imho. But I think you would do well to find someone in your area that has been doing bonsai for a while. The front branch certainly is not bad; I think this is something for Jun to have a look at. Maybe post it in a new thread, called "Bougainville styling advice"?

As for the mopane: I think it would be hard to get it through customs? Also, it makes seious tap roots; Established plants may have a hard time getiing to create roots at surface level?

leatherback wrote:Nope. This is horrible. Don't use it for bonsai. Ship it to germany instead

(And yeas, I would love to have access to something like that. Would make a great tree, imho. But I think you would do well to find someone in your area that has been doing bonsai for a while. The front branch certainly is not bad; I think this is something for Jun to have a look at. Maybe post it in a new thread, called "Bougainville styling advice"?

As for the mopane: I think it would be hard to get it through customs? Also, it makes seious tap roots; Established plants may have a hard time getiing to create roots at surface level?

I am glad You like my bougainvillea. It became this shape by accident...It was not intended for bonsai at all, just that the space where it was growing was small and I kept on chopping it to fit. It is at list 15 years old....probably 20. I have some more in the garden but the rest are not so short. Have some hibiscus that I dont really want with small leaves also. And I have lots of friends I can dig plants from...for bonsai. And I am eyeing a tamarind tree in the garden...will take pictures so You tell me if I should dig it out. I have just too many plants in the garden. I shifted here from a farm, together with lots of old plants...so I need to re lanscape the plase... lots will be bonsai material. better than giving them to the neighbours. I recently bought the plot next door. I am trying to landscape it too. Run out of space for plants here. I am almost finishing my Koi pond there ( a second one). So material I can find...but knowledge and experience I dont have.
OK! I am going to post the B on a new thread. Maybe someone will help? But I know they will tell me to wait...so hard to wait.

On the Bougie think of a triangle for the shape and incorporate the side branch in the triangle.
something like /\ with the long side using the big side branch.
\

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:On the Bougie think of a triangle for the shape and incorporate the side branch in the triangle.
something like /\ with the long side using the big side branch.
\

Do U mean this? Is the direction of the brunches correct or it should me more like wind swept?

If You look at it from the right it has lots of brunches. Too many!

This is the other side where there are not many brunches...Maybe make this the front or the the bonsai, or the second picture the one with the cave?

I would make the left side of the triangle shorter and the apex higher.

Pardon me for being so childish but I can't help but giggle thinking about someone named Rhodes commenting on trees in Zambia.

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I would make the left side of the triangle shorter and the apex higher.

OK! I understood. Someone on Face book sent me this picture yesterday. It looks so bushy to me almost like a topiary. Some how it is too much brunches or I dont know?

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I would make the left side of the triangle shorter and the apex higher.

Which one should I make the front?

Scion wrote:Pardon me for being so childish but I can't help but giggle thinking about someone named Rhodes commenting on trees in Zambia.

Forums are meant to have fun and lots of giggles! Rhodes for sure should be the best expert! He he he!

OK! I need to ask this as well:
It is by first bonsai since I started two at the same time.
I know I need to work on the roots and on the soil, but want it to grow now...it is the growing season here. Rains just started. I saw something about tapper on trunk and brunches. Meaning I have to shorten them and leave a shoot at the end. Since it is the growing season, I dont want to miss it. Better concentrate the energy into the shoots I want to thicken/tapper.
I can see the shoots on the brunches so it gives me some idea where I can cut (????). And since the bougainvillea does not like to be bent when the brunches are older...I might as well do some bending...Or maybe do the bending first so I see how the shoots will grow after they are bent.They change direction after they are bent.
Now I see top brunches are supposed to be cut 2-3 buds, lower 3-4 buds, and lowest 4-6 buds...Problem here is that the buds are appearing every two-3 mm if I have to chop to two buds...the brunch will be not more than 0.5cm...should I cut them a bit longer and just remove the buds I dont want?
There is a big brunch, coming from the top, bending in the direction of the the end of the long brunch at the base...to the right??? It is the thickest brunch. I think I will leave it as a leader??? in order to create tapper on top.
I will try to make a good virtual before I do anything. There are just too many brunches and they confuse me.
U can tell me my mistakes.
Am I thinking correctly?

Neli wrote: Rhodes for sure should be the best expert! He he he!

He should, yes. But I can’t understand why he left the rail head at Kapiri Mposhi. It’s a tiresome stroll through the bush to the Tanzam.

Neli wrote:OK! I need to ask this as well:
It is by first bonsai since I started two at the same time.
I know I need to work on the roots and on the soil, but want it to grow now...it is the growing season here. Rains just started. I saw something about tapper on trunk and brunches. Meaning I have to shorten them and leave a shoot at the end. Since it is the growing season, I dont want to miss it. Better concentrate the energy into the shoots I want to thicken/tapper.
I can see the shoots on the brunches so it gives me some idea where I can cut (????). And since the bougainvillea does not like to be bent when the brunches are older...I might as well do some bending...Or maybe do the bending first so I see how the shoots will grow after they are bent.They change direction after they are bent.
Now I see top brunches are supposed to be cut 2-3 buds, lower 3-4 buds, and lowest 4-6 buds...Problem here is that the buds are appearing every two-3 mm if I have to chop to two buds...the brunch will be not more than 0.5cm...should I cut them a bit longer and just remove the buds I dont want?
There is a big brunch, coming from the top, bending in the direction of the the end of the long brunch at the base...to the right??? It is the thickest brunch. I think I will leave it as a leader??? in order to create tapper on top.
I will try to make a good virtual before I do anything. There are just too many brunches and they confuse me.
U can tell me my mistakes.
Am I thinking correctly?

The "cut at 2~3 buds at the top, 3~4 buds etc " are guidelines.
I don't really want to compare this to cooking, but somehow it is similar. When you have a recipe they tell you 4 pinch of salts, 2 carrots or whatever.
In cooking its up to you and your personal taste, in bonsai its partly up to you and mostly up to the plant.
If the branch is too thin, you could wait for one or two growing season to let it thicken up before cutting it to the first 2~3 buds.


A lot people here have temperate climates [ cold/freezing winters ].
The way your tree will behave in a tropical climate will differ greatly.
I can get 2~3 growing seasons on my ficus if I leave it alone for one year, same for privets.
I have to repot my privets every 6 months in some cases [ even after a very drastic root pruning ]. Someone in the UK would call me mental if I suggest this method to be used in the UK.
Bougainvillea are slower where I live, you get growth, but those growth are mainly creepers [ green wood ] and you have to let them grow and thicken before it is worth cutting back to the 2~4 buds [ hard wood ]. Or else you will have a great woody trunk, but with green snappy ramifications.
If you've just got your trees, take some time to learn its growing patterns.

It is difficult to tell with 100% confidence how much you should work on a tree that we don't own, in a climate that we don't know.
At this early stage it is a gamble on how much the tree can take.
Each action on it, cutting, pruning, repotting, wiring etc will induce stress on the tree.
If your tree is healthy, it will support more stress, if not some parts will die off and the stronger sections of the tree will grow new growth.

You could leave it to recuperate for the next six months and then work again on it.
By that time you might get more options for the leader and better alternatives for the tree.

Scion wrote:

Neli wrote: Rhodes for sure should be the best expert! He he he!

He should, yes. But I can’t understand why he left the rail head at Kapiri Mposhi. It’s a tiresome stroll through the bush to the Tanzam.

How did You know?
We travel by road to Kapiri, from there We take the train to Tanzania...

xtolord wrote:

Neli wrote:OK! I need to ask this as well:
It is by first bonsai since I started two at the same time.
I know I need to work on the roots and on the soil, but want it to grow now...it is the growing season here. Rains just started. I saw something about tapper on trunk and brunches. Meaning I have to shorten them and leave a shoot at the end. Since it is the growing season, I dont want to miss it. Better concentrate the energy into the shoots I want to thicken/tapper.
I can see the shoots on the brunches so it gives me some idea where I can cut (????). And since the bougainvillea does not like to be bent when the brunches are older...I might as well do some bending...Or maybe do the bending first so I see how the shoots will grow after they are bent.They change direction after they are bent.
Now I see top brunches are supposed to be cut 2-3 buds, lower 3-4 buds, and lowest 4-6 buds...Problem here is that the buds are appearing every two-3 mm if I have to chop to two buds...the brunch will be not more than 0.5cm...should I cut them a bit longer and just remove the buds I dont want?
There is a big brunch, coming from the top, bending in the direction of the the end of the long brunch at the base...to the right??? It is the thickest brunch. I think I will leave it as a leader??? in order to create tapper on top.
I will try to make a good virtual before I do anything. There are just too many brunches and they confuse me.
U can tell me my mistakes.
Am I thinking correctly?

The "cut at 2~3 buds at the top, 3~4 buds etc " are guidelines.
I don't really want to compare this to cooking, but somehow it is similar. When you have a recipe they tell you 4 pinch of salts, 2 carrots or whatever.
In cooking its up to you and your personal taste, in bonsai its partly up to you and mostly up to the plant.
If the branch is too thin, you could wait for one or two growing season to let it thicken up before cutting it to the first 2~3 buds.


A lot people here have temperate climates [ cold/freezing winters ].
The way your tree will behave in a tropical climate will differ greatly.
I can get 2~3 growing seasons on my ficus if I leave it alone for one year, same for privets.
I have to repot my privets every 6 months in some cases [ even after a very drastic root pruning ]. Someone in the UK would call me mental if I suggest this method to be used in the UK.
Bougainvillea are slower where I live, you get growth, but those growth are mainly creepers [ green wood ] and you have to let them grow and thicken before it is worth cutting back to the 2~4 buds [ hard wood ]. Or else you will have a great woody trunk, but with green snappy ramifications.
If you've just got your trees, take some time to learn its growing patterns.

It is difficult to tell with 100% confidence how much you should work on a tree that we don't own, in a climate that we don't know.
At this early stage it is a gamble on how much the tree can take.
Each action on it, cutting, pruning, repotting, wiring etc will induce stress on the tree.
If your tree is healthy, it will support more stress, if not some parts will die off and the stronger sections of the tree will grow new growth.

You could leave it to recuperate for the next six months and then work again on it.
By that time you might get more options for the leader and better alternatives for the tree.

Thanks Darling! Lots of sensible advise...Makes me understand things better.
1 I am just confirming what You said, and make sure I understand it.
2. Thicker brunches I can cut, according to the length needed and not to 2-3 buds...Thinner brunches I let grow. I chop in such a manner that I let a branch grow at the end to continue the brunch. If there are more than the required number of buds on the branch, I let them grow to thicken that part and I chop them later if necessary.
3 Growing season here is very different. Things grow like crazy here. I dont even worry about the bougainvillea dying, I know it will be OK.Look at the ficus, I chopped the roots, wired the branches, removed the leaves...and in a month has shot new leaves and grown a lot.Our climate here is very good...most of the time like late spring in Europe...We have only 2-3 weeks of heat and it is not as bad as in Europe. We are 1700m above sea level so moderate climate.
4 This bougainvillea is not a climber it is a shrub variety and the buds (ramification???) are next to each other through out the stems..I nave the climbers also, but their inter nodes are very far apart. I have been growing this bougainvillea for over 20 years...I know its habits very well. And the one that worries me a bit is its habit of having flowers at the end on the brunches on new growth. That means I will have to eventually adjust the timing of the cutting if I want to have flowers.
5 I need to consider how much stress my tree can take...I agree...need to think about that.
6, My worry is that some of the brunches are thick, and it will be hard to bent them later...also I want to concentrate the grouth where it is needed, and not on branches I have to cut later. My main consideration at this point is to shape it and try to tapper the branches, and maybe wire only the old thick ones so they can stay in shape or get shaped by the wire during this growing season.
Now I need to make a virtual drawing how the shape eventually will be so I have guide lines what to do in future. I believe that I need to do in the beginning?
What worries me most now is that the brunches are thick already, and they say B. is hard to bend and fragile if the branches are old.
Which one appeals to U best as a front?

Well we don't talk about Uncle Cecil much, and most Americans wouldn't get it.

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:Well we don't talk about Uncle Cecil much, and most Americans wouldn't get it.

Billy, I hope You know We are just joking Darling. I know U are a big boy so You should know how to receive jokes and dish out double dose in return.
I am sure people here are good natured...I am for sure.

Neli wrote:
Thanks Darling! Lots of sensible advise...Makes me understand things better.
1 I am just confirming what You said, and make sure I understand it.
2. Thicker brunches I can cut, according to the length needed and not to 2-3 buds...Thinner brunches I let grow. I chop in such a manner that I let a branch grow at the end to continue the brunch. If there are more than the required number of buds on the branch, I let them grow to thicken that part and I chop them later if necessary.
3 Growing season here is very different. Things grow like crazy here. I dont even worry about the bougainvillea dying, I know it will be OK.Look at the ficus, I chopped the roots, wired the branches, removed the leaves...and in a month has shot new leaves and grown a lot.Our climate here is very good...most of the time like late spring in Europe...We have only 2-3 weeks of heat and it is not as bad as in Europe. We are 1700m above sea level so moderate climate.
4 This bougainvillea is not a climber it is a shrub variety and the buds (ramification???) are next to each other through out the stems..I nave the climbers also, but their inter nodes are very far apart. I have been growing this bougainvillea for over 20 years...I know its habits very well. And the one that worries me a bit is its habit of having flowers at the end on the brunches on new growth. That means I will have to eventually adjust the timing of the cutting if I want to have flowers.
5 I need to consider how much stress my tree can take...I agree...need to think about that.
6, My worry is that some of the brunches are thick, and it will be hard to bent them later...also I want to concentrate the grouth where it is needed, and not on branches I have to cut later. My main consideration at this point is to shape it and try to tapper the branches, and maybe wire only the old thick ones so they can stay in shape or get shaped by the wire during this growing season.
Now I need to make a virtual drawing how the shape eventually will be so I have guide lines what to do in future. I believe that I need to do in the beginning?
What worries me most now is that the brunches are thick already, and they say B. is hard to bend and fragile if the branches are old.
Which one appeals to U best as a front?

Neli wrote:2. Thicker brunches I can cut, according to the length needed and not to 2-3 buds...Thinner brunches I let grow. I chop in such a manner that I let a branch grow at the end to continue the brunch. If there are more than the required number of buds on the branch, I let them grow to thicken that part and I chop them later if necessary.

There is more to it but in a nutshell yes.
There are different types of cuttings that you can do and at various times.
Basically you can group them as :
Maintenance cutting/pruning : Pruning to keep into shape [ usually at later stages where you already have your structure and don't want the tree to grow too much and break that structure ]
Styling cutting/pruning : Pruning to restructure [ this usually implies the 2~3 buds guidelines to promote ramification ] as well as removing unwanted growth and branches.
There is also a technique called sacrificial branches and another called defoliation

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/train/pruning
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Pruning1.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Pruning2.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Pruning3.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Beechadvancedpruning.htm
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATdefoliating.htm
For the sacrificial branches :
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATrootoverrock2.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rnti04ZjTM

Neli wrote:6, My worry is that some of the brunches are thick, and it will be hard to bent them later...also I want to concentrate the grouth where it is needed, and not on branches I have to cut later. My main consideration at this point is to shape it and try to tapper the branches, and maybe wire only the old thick ones so they can stay in shape or get shaped by the wire during this growing season.
Now I need to make a virtual drawing how the shape eventually will be so I have guide lines what to do in future. I believe that I need to do in the beginning?
What worries me most now is that the brunches are thick already, and they say B. is hard to bend and fragile if the branches are old.
Which one appeals to U best as a front?

I've had bad experience with bougie, so I cant be of much help here. The one I had died on me due to my failure in treating the exposed deadwood in time.



Your main trunk structure looks great to me, and you could keep it as it is and start improving the ramifications.
My idea is a two trunk tree. Its not uncommon where I live.

No offense taken. I had not thought about Zambia/Rhodesia think until it was mentioned.

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:No offense taken. I had not thought about Zambia/Rhodesia think until it was mentioned.

illy I just had to be sure U are not offended in any manner.I would not want You to be, or would never want to offend you. I would like to thank You for all the advise> Hope you will continue.

xtolord wrote:

Neli wrote:
Thanks Darling! Lots of sensible advise...Makes me understand things better.
1 I am just confirming what You said, and make sure I understand it.
2. Thicker brunches I can cut, according to the length needed and not to 2-3 buds...Thinner brunches I let grow. I chop in such a manner that I let a branch grow at the end to continue the brunch. If there are more than the required number of buds on the branch, I let them grow to thicken that part and I chop them later if necessary.
3 Growing season here is very different. Things grow like crazy here. I dont even worry about the bougainvillea dying, I know it will be OK.Look at the ficus, I chopped the roots, wired the branches, removed the leaves...and in a month has shot new leaves and grown a lot.Our climate here is very good...most of the time like late spring in Europe...We have only 2-3 weeks of heat and it is not as bad as in Europe. We are 1700m above sea level so moderate climate.
4 This bougainvillea is not a climber it is a shrub variety and the buds (ramification???) are next to each other through out the stems..I nave the climbers also, but their inter nodes are very far apart. I have been growing this bougainvillea for over 20 years...I know its habits very well. And the one that worries me a bit is its habit of having flowers at the end on the brunches on new growth. That means I will have to eventually adjust the timing of the cutting if I want to have flowers.
5 I need to consider how much stress my tree can take...I agree...need to think about that.
6, My worry is that some of the brunches are thick, and it will be hard to bent them later...also I want to concentrate the grouth where it is needed, and not on branches I have to cut later. My main consideration at this point is to shape it and try to tapper the branches, and maybe wire only the old thick ones so they can stay in shape or get shaped by the wire during this growing season.
Now I need to make a virtual drawing how the shape eventually will be so I have guide lines what to do in future. I believe that I need to do in the beginning?
What worries me most now is that the brunches are thick already, and they say B. is hard to bend and fragile if the branches are old.
Which one appeals to U best as a front?

Neli wrote:2. Thicker brunches I can cut, according to the length needed and not to 2-3 buds...Thinner brunches I let grow. I chop in such a manner that I let a branch grow at the end to continue the brunch. If there are more than the required number of buds on the branch, I let them grow to thicken that part and I chop them later if necessary.

There is more to it but in a nutshell yes.
There are different types of cuttings that you can do and at various times.
Basically you can group them as :
Maintenance cutting/pruning : Pruning to keep into shape [ usually at later stages where you already have your structure and don't want the tree to grow too much and break that structure ]
Styling cutting/pruning : Pruning to restructure [ this usually implies the 2~3 buds guidelines to promote ramification ] as well as removing unwanted growth and branches.
There is also a technique called sacrificial branches and another called defoliation

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/train/pruning
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Pruning1.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Pruning2.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Pruning3.html
http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Beechadvancedpruning.htm
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATdefoliating.htm
For the sacrificial branches :
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATrootoverrock2.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rnti04ZjTM

Neli wrote:6, My worry is that some of the brunches are thick, and it will be hard to bent them later...also I want to concentrate the grouth where it is needed, and not on branches I have to cut later. My main consideration at this point is to shape it and try to tapper the branches, and maybe wire only the old thick ones so they can stay in shape or get shaped by the wire during this growing season.
Now I need to make a virtual drawing how the shape eventually will be so I have guide lines what to do in future. I believe that I need to do in the beginning?
What worries me most now is that the brunches are thick already, and they say B. is hard to bend and fragile if the branches are old.
Which one appeals to U best as a front?

I've had bad experience with bougie, so I cant be of much help here. The one I had died on me due to my failure in treating the exposed deadwood in time.



Your main trunk structure looks great to me, and you could keep it as it is and start improving the ramifications.
My idea is a two trunk tree. Its not uncommon where I live.

I like your idea on the virtual drawing...Very very nice! Never thought of that> Looks interesting.
On bonsai4me I read everything, after you gave me the link. ficus forum also.Bonsai empire I have seen only the articles and gallery.I have failed to register...It says I am a spammer???? I dont know how to be a spammer. The admin said he will sort it out.So I can not see the posts on progression and others...maybe later. I am downloading the video link You gave me now.
Today I managed to restrain my self. Just looked at the B from all angles and tried to decide which side looks better for a front. Tomorrow I will cut first the dead branches. Then I will look at it again take pictures...look at it on the pictures and try to decide which should be the front. Did You like the picture U marked as a front? Not bad...I liked two sides but not sure yet. They both have a branch that is going forward which I believe is not OK...But I can always cut them. One thing is for sure...This B, has very hard wood, and even to cut it is hard,The older branches are totally immobile. They are like rocks!
Now I need to ask about the dead wood. I have some, and some caves...It says B, Does not like that. What do I seal it with? Can I use bitumen or vaselin. Dont have any wood sealant here...What can I use? Have rubber paint also for the pond..

Most of the wood sealants are clear, you mention vasline, but I am not sure it is the same product we have.
The bitumen would work I am just not sure how it would look. The rubber paint for the pond would probably peal off.
The problem with Bougie wood is that it rots in just a few months, especially in a wet climate. If you are dry and water the soil only it will take longer.