First bonsai help needed

leatherback wrote:Hm.. Art has no rules? I don't think I agree there. Even if you set some rules there is a lot of freedo. But most rules in Bonsai are guidelines I'd say. There is this rule that states that a tree should be no taller than 6 times the trunk diameter. Yet, if you look at trees, you find spectacular bonsai which do not meet the rule. The same for not allowing to have T-bar branches, inverse taper. The art is in creating a tree that leaves the impression of an old weather tree, which is also pleasing to the eye. How you reach that point is normally not the question.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

as not every oil painting/ sculpture can be considered - Fine Art [ note I use not the term - art ] so too not every bonsai or penjing can be considered - Fine Art or Fine Craft.

The vast majority of trees being grown in pots will be - Garden Craft.
I think one has to decide why is he making bonsai...bonsai has many different benefits to different people. Ones You decide it is easy. I thinkI do it for fun at the moment, simply because i have no deep understanding yet...and You need a lot of feeling, the gift of understanding, and appreciation...At the moment I am at the stage of what apeals to me, and makes me happy, but I hope that with time i will manage to have a deeper understanding of the art form of bonsai...at list I am trying..

A tree must go beyond, being an attractive shape, for example, a yammadori [ collected tree from the wild ] must be trained to well beyond, that state which first caught the collector's eye.
I saw someone said it is a journey...and a very important part of the creation...even the journey it self is enough at the moment for me. I am still trying to figure out lots of things.

You must reach the state of - contemplation - whereas the many bonsai will reach - memory.
In other words, when observed, these bonsai will stir memories, but little else, which in itself is great.

There are some Japanese and Chinese trees that easily reach - memories - but I have yet to see the - contemplate.
MAYBE YOU CAN SHOW ME A TREE which makes you contemplate. I would like to understand it better.

Unfortunately, as was explained to me years ago on the ClayArt list -

"What's difference between Craft and Art, price paid for the object."

Hee hee Art costs much more Hee hee.
Always????Why? What is the reason?

So you will see many pushing for the Art part of bonsai, simply because they can get a better price.
[Bonsai pots,tools, soils, fertilizer and trees cost, expecially as you go up the scale Yi Xing pots, Masakuni tools for example.]
AND that $$ nonsense is very sad.
I have one principle. Never mix business with pleasure...It will spoil both. I dont mind spending for my pleasure, but the moment I start profiting from it...it becomes a business, and not pure pleasure.

Looking forward to seeing your tamarind being trained, I saw your image a page or two back.
I left it in the ground...just chopped it half way. Plan to style it in the ground a bit before I dig it out.
Later.
Khaimraj

JimLewis wrote:That thing about being able to see the trunk all the way to the top of the tree can be taken to unsightly extremes. Even ugly.

Yes, you do want to be able to see the trunk -- and how it moves -- well up into the tree, but the foliage will normally get denser and denser as you move upwards, and as you near the top it is perfectly acceptable for branches to point out toward the viewer. Since branches are normally much shorter by the time you reach the top, they're really not "eye-poking" branches.
Thanks Jim, it makes me understand it much better.
Here is an example - Korean hornbeam -- you can glimpse the trunk almost to the top, but it is not exposed to the world except at the lower half of the tree.
I feel there is so much to learn, and it is fun learning and understanding things better. And here You need to understand things first. A good example. I tried to look at so many pictures to understand things, and saw lots of controversial elements, and was getting confused. Now I see a bit better the BIG picture.



I can think of very few times when you want a bonsai to move (slant) away from the viewer. But the "bowing to the viewer" can be taken to extremes. Generally, I think the forward movement should be quite subtle, and it should not be sudden; the overall movement of the tree should be toward the viewer, not a sudden set of branches groping out toward the front.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

for me as Bonsai goes, it is still a love of trees, I grew up in Forest Reserve, and did a lot of climbing, vine swinging and just looking.Memories.
I was talking today about learning to appreciate the little things in life...it makes your life so much richer..Money is not everything if you fail to appreciate the little things, or big ones like trees. But I take trees as little things too, for not many people have learned to find beauty in them.

I can suggest a few books, but I don't know of any trees on-line, but remember I spoke of - memories - and not contemplation, haven't found one tree that does that for me. For example, Titian's Sacred and Profane, can be contemplated.
Do U mean that You contemplate something you dont understand?Or do You call the process of trying to understand it contemplation...because not many people have understood that painting...It is a mystery!

Cost wise, in Fine Art, images or sculpture that make one contemplate and have done so throughout the ages for others, have universal ideas, as well as exceptional paint handling etc.
Craft is normally taken as household stuff for general use.
Yes, there is also Art Pottery, I left an example of such a few months ago, -

http://syracusethenandnow.org/Nghbrhds/Strathmore/AARobineau.htm

and there will be other examples of where craft rises to great creative heights, but look at the thought and time spent on such items.
Yes craft can become art, despite its utilitarian properties.

I sell Oil Paintings and Drawings for a living, but it is purely a case of you like it, you can purchase, if you don't like it, no problem.
Bonsai is a hobby, no sales.bonsai for me I hope will become a creative expression ones I begin to understand its guiding principles.

Be careful, on this side, and our purely clay type soils, tamarinds, with trunks larger than pencil thicknesses, seldom ever survive. On Jun's side, they are able to harvest very large trunks [ Philippines - possibly volcanic soils ]
Typed just in case he sees, and has a comment or two to make.
Best to you.
Khaimraj

fiona wrote:Ah well, now there's an oft-discussed topic on here. If you go to the google search facility on the Home page you should be able to summon some up some previous threads to digest at leisure.

Make sure you have a lot of time to spare before reading them though - they do go on a bit and all it has ever shown is that there will never be consensus on this topic.

but I sensed some discord over the subject already...

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Neli,

chuckle, if you find my response short and perhaps clinical, it is because we have these types of discussions on the Fine Art lists, and also in the Studios. After a time, you start to finish the other person's sentences - chuckle.
Been on lists since 1998, by the way.

I contemplate, apart from meaning[ intellectual ], technical stuff and emotional appeal. The mind drifts on for hours.

The appeal - [ your last response ]
For many of us [ Realist oil painters ] when there is an appeal to the Intellect, the emotion and the craft or the Head, the heart and the hand.

The little things of life, or to see a world in a grain of sand.
I'll stop now
Until.
Khaimraj

Fukien tea airlayer, first year of training -

Neli wrote:MAYBE YOU CAN SHOW ME A TREE which makes you contemplate. I would like to understand it better.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:If one used the proportions of actual trees, what size proportionately would bonsai efforts end up being?

I tend to prefer the pre-1950 bonsai.
Later.
Khaimraj

leatherback wrote:

Neli wrote:MAYBE YOU CAN SHOW ME A TREE which makes you contemplate. I would like to understand it better.

Hi Nellie,

A little while ago I stumbled across a post on the old bonsai from Japan, especially on how bonsai nowadays are all suffering from obestity. The aim is on thick trunks. However, the older bonsai school used to also show slender trees. It is there that I found this image, which I think is a bonsai to sit down and 'contemplate'. Why is it beautifull? I don't know. But I can watch and watch and just enjoy. I think that is where it becomes art.



The whole series: http://saruyama-bonsai.blogspot.de/2012_05_01_archive.html

If you could score Mopane seed that would be great!

Cheers

Neli wrote:

fiona wrote:Ah well, now there's an oft-discussed topic on here. If you go to the google search facility on the Home page you should be able to summon some up some previous threads to digest at leisure.

Make sure you have a lot of time to spare before reading them though - they do go on a bit and all it has ever shown is that there will never be consensus on this topic.

UUUUUPS!
Did not know it is a sensitive subject. I will look for the threads...but I sensed some discord over the subject already...he he he!

Neli wrote: ...... I dont like over styled unnatural looking bonsai... like a woman with too much makeup!

Scion wrote:

Neli wrote: ...... I dont like over styled unnatural looking bonsai... like a woman with too much makeup!

You've met my sister-in-law then, eh?

I think Andrew is onto something about the difficulty with defining "art" (and applying it to bonsai) when such definitions often describe a FINISHED PIECE...... which bonsai never is.

It's up to the individual, as with any other art form, except for a unique sort of "on again"/"off again" beauty that is in the eye of a single bonsai beholder ....... "beauty on", needs a prune, "beauty off".

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Actually, it seems to be more a case of - Artists are geniuses - and since any effort is Art, I must be a genius.

Hence the response often seen on Art forums -

"just because no one understands you, it does not mean you are a genius" [ this is leftover from Van Gogh ------- whose work is very easily duplicated ------- and if you can do it you are an Artist and once again a - Genius ]

Additionally, as Bonsai goes, if you grow one, you have something to show and it makes you someone.
It's a prestige thingee.

As humans grow older, many often begin to look for achievements, for the many Bonsai is their only achievement and extremely important, better still it is Art.

Later.
Khaimraj

Andrew Legg wrote:

Neli wrote:

fiona wrote:Ah well, now there's an oft-discussed topic on here. If you go to the google search facility on the Home page you should be able to summon some up some previous threads to digest at leisure.

Make sure you have a lot of time to spare before reading them though - they do go on a bit and all it has ever shown is that there will never be consensus on this topic.

UUUUUPS!
Did not know it is a sensitive subject. I will look for the threads...but I sensed some discord over the subject already...he he he!

Hi Neli,

What I say below is no reference to Fiona, but rather just following on from her comments.

In all walks of life there are people who feel the need to recognised either by themselves or by their peers as superior to others. They are more glamorous than others. They are more intelligent at others. They are better at some sport than others, or they are better at some form of art than others. For every human endeavour there is an example I can show you. My personal feeling is that this is fine. It is after all human nature to be competitive. What can happen with some of these people is that they will denigrate the work of other people in that field as being inferior. The often heard statement of "that's not art" comes to mind, and I hate to say it, but the same applies in bonsai. "That's not bonsai!". In my mind, the best thing to do is simply to ignore the whole debate and not get caught up in what constitutes a bonsai. By the very nature of human perception, we all enjoy and appreciate things differently, so how we can endeavour to apply a fixed rule to what constitutes art, or even what constitutes good art is beyond me entirely. For me it gets to the point where I'm willing to not refer to my trees as bonsai if it makes others happier that I don't call them that. At the end of the day, and as I always say, its about the journey and the end result . . . . . . . well, there ain't one in bonsai.

So Neli, embrace your fantastic enthusiasm and enjoy the journey!

Cheers,

Andrew