Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Guest on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:12 am

I am quit sure vertical hanging is a good idea. this is how the sun reach the tres, outside in the nature...the lamp I have always used has a tilt, that make the light hit, most of all, the lowest branches from the "roomside"...from the windowside is it full sun all ower, up and dawn....i turn the trees regular.
I would go that far to to say that 2/3 vertical lamps is better in your case.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:24 pm

Ryan wrote:
RKatzin wrote:Hi Ryan, Yes side lighting works better than just overhead. With artificial lighting your plants must be close to the bulbs. You can either raise the plants or lower the lights. I've used upside down pots to raise plants and my lights were on cables and pulleys so I could raise and lower them as needed.

The trees on the floor get very little benefit, but the table end looks good. I think you would see tighter, more compact growth and more backbudding with side lights. Think about your typical day, the first few hours the sun is coming in from the side and in the afternoon, also. Ever seen a suntracker? It's a gizzmo that moves your bulb in an arc across your room to simulate the movement of the sun. I just put bulbs all around for the same effect.


I'm considering hanging some of the fixtures on their side, but I'm not sure how to go about setting them that way. I've been searching the net without finding much information about whether or not vertical hanging really helps, though.

Well, here's one video example with side lights, go to 4:31 ... I do it the same way as him ... you can do it anyway you see fit of course ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_6W1eGB2yY

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:54 pm

I suppose I could give it a try, but now I just have to figure out how to go about doing it  scratch 

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  augustine on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:31 pm

Ryan,

How about building little "cradles" out of PVC pipe which will hold them in a vertical position?

I've had a few humble plants for the last several years which were kept under shop lights during the cold weather. However, at work I was moved to a different office which has a wall of windows and broght the plants to work. They are doing well with the natural light plus the flourescent lighting of the office. Also, I have a big hvac vent for lots of air circulation. I stll plan to take them home and outside in late spring.

Happy New Year to all!

Augustine

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Leo Schordje on Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:51 pm

From my experience, I have not bothered with side lights, and I have been growing under lights for over 25 years. If your light intensity is good, you can "get by". My light garden is a full 600 square feet of illuminated shelves.

@ Ryan, if you wanted to increase your light, personally I would add side lights, but would not remove the lights you already have on top. Leaves will orientate to capture the most light, right now your leaves are all for catching light from above. If you dim the light from the top by moving units to the side, you may end up with trees with leaves orientated rather strangely.

Tip:
This works if the following condition is met. Plants involved all need to be DAY LENGTH NEUTRAL SPECIES. Meaning that you are growing plants or trees that do not use day length to govern their annual growth cycle. Surprisingly, the number of species of trees that use day length to govern annual growth patterns is not as large as one might think. Many northern temperate species actually are day length neutral. Some sensitive species are Poinsettia and Chrysanthemum. I don't have a list of what is and isn't, but most tropical species are day length neutral in their growth cycle. (because winter and summer day lengths don't vary much in the tropics) You will have to do your own homework for your own species, but the vast majority of trees native to the tropics (and often the sub-tropics) are day length neutral, and many temperate species use temperature rather than day length to govern annual cycles. However, with higher latitude species it is scattered as to which genera are day length neutral and which is day length sensitive.

The Trick: You can to a large degree compensate for lower light intensities by increasing day length. For my tropicals (mostly orchids) I use an 18 hour day, 365 days a year. This allows me to get good growth from sun loving plants even though most of my light garden delivers only 1000 ft candles to my orchids, roughly medium shade level of light. I do have pools of brighter light in my garden, but I have more sun loving species than I have bright spots, so this trick is essential to get good growth.

The info I used came from the Forest Products Research Labs at University of Wisconsin. Their test subjects were pines, P. resinosa and P. strobus. Their study showed that 18 hours was optimal and that increases in day length beyond 18 hours did not have any further beneficial effect. ( the dark cycle of photosynthesis falls behind the light requiring portion of the photosynthetic cycle). The result was clear, increases in day length improved growth right up to 18 hours, beyond 18 hours was wasting electricity.

I've used the 18 hour day length for 25 years and am quite happy with it.

My light garden is based on HPS and T5 lamps. It does add significantly to the electric bill, but I live at the IL-WI border, the cost of heating a greenhouse in my climate is very high. Yesterday's low temp was -17 F (-29 C), which is no joke to deal with. A commercial greenhouse with 10,000 square feet of space could expect to spent as much as $40,000 on natural gas to heat their greenhouse over the course of one month in this kind of cold. (one of my commercial orchid grower friends showed me his heating bill a few years back when we had a cold January, his one month bill was $40,000) Also my light garden does help keep the house warm. In summer getting rid of heat is an issue, so many plants go outside and parts of the garden are turned off.

I need to take a current photo, this is an old photo, from 2006, before I removed some of the HPS fixtures and replaced them with T5s. It is in my unfinished basement, it looks a frightful mess. Concrete floor with floor drains, allows me to water with a garden hose. Photo taken just after a big shipment of orchids arrived, normally the floor is clear. Key that is not shown, there are fans in several places that are left on 24 hrs/365. The air is kept moving, gentle circulation, this keeps down mold, bacteria and fungal issues. It also helps get air into the soil, gives you better root health.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:52 pm

augustine wrote:Ryan,

How about building little "cradles" out of PVC pipe which will hold them in a vertical position?

Augustine

Those would probably work, thanks for the tip.

Leo Schordje wrote:From my experience, I have not bothered with side lights, and I have been growing under lights for over 25 years. If your light intensity is good, you can "get by". My light garden is a full 600 square feet of illuminated shelves.

@ Ryan, if you wanted to increase your light, personally I would add side lights, but would not remove the lights you already have on top. Leaves will orientate to capture the most light, right now your leaves are all for catching light from above. If you dim the light from the top by moving units to the side, you may end up with trees with leaves orientated rather strangely.



Thanks Leo. I don't want to increase my lights. At 20 bulbs I think I've got more than enough. The side lights were just suggested to me, but I probably won't end up doing that now that I think about it.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Jerry Meislik on Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:54 pm

Nice setup Leo and thanks for sharing your expertise.
Jerry

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:46 am

Rick, Thanks for you interest :)hope i can bring something a little new to the table with both the LED's and cabinet design, i am working very hard on building these to be as efficient and good looking as i possible can make them... time will tell.

Very interesting this discussion on side lightning, may be something i will try in just one of the cabinets to see the difference in growth.

Leo, good info and very nice setup! sounds wonderful with the drain holes and to water with a garden hose Smile

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vendor possibility

Post  lordy on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:02 pm

Saw this on another forum. Interesting, at least partially made in USA, not inexpensive, various options.
Just glad I have floor to ceiling windows in my office for my few tropicals.

http://ultraledlights.com/full_spectrum_grow_light.htm

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:11 pm

lordy wrote:Saw this on another forum.  Interesting, at least partially made in USA, not inexpensive, various options.
Just glad I have floor to ceiling windows in my office for my few tropicals.

http://ultraledlights.com/full_spectrum_grow_light.htm


I dunno, I'd be wary of buying from this guy. In the link below there's a light that is 36 watts, yet he equates it to a 600W HPS. Seems fishy to me....

http://ultraledlights.com/index.htm

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Lordy, i must agree with Ryan, and $400 for 36 watts is just insane!

Its a jungle of websites selling LED's for plants, one must really be careful not to get ripped of.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  lordy on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:09 pm

I must admit that I, normally a very scrutinous (?) shopper, have done no further research on grow lights.  I simply went to that website from another posted link and thought it looked interesting.  But you both may well be right about finding better setups and prices out there.  Again, I am happy I have large windows to winter my tropicals in and not have to add lighting to my list of worries.
Having seen numerous pics of Ryan's setups, I would certainly feel he knows a bit about the subject.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:01 am

Ryan wrote:
Dreamcast wrote:Leo, would it be possible to see a photo or a few of your current setup?

If others would like to show there indoor gardens as well that would be awesome! Very Happy


I've got 2 four foot four bulb T5's, and 2 6 bulb four foot T5 lights, for a total of 20 T5 bulbs above my trees.



Very Nice, Ryan.  But how do you manage the water flowing out of the pots when watering ?

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Ryan on Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:54 pm

brett2013 wrote:
Ryan wrote:
Dreamcast wrote:Leo, would it be possible to see a photo or a few of your current setup?

If others would like to show there indoor gardens as well that would be awesome! Very Happy


I've got 2 four foot four bulb T5's, and 2 6 bulb four foot T5 lights, for a total of 20 T5 bulbs above my trees.



Very Nice, Ryan.  But how do you manage the water flowing out of the pots when watering ?

I don't, it just flows out onto the plastic drop cloth  Laughing 

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:09 am

Thanks for the info  Cool 


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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:19 pm

Just want to update this thread with saying that the building is going good, still trying to overcome some small problems i have encountered and also waiting on some essential parts.
But i can say this will be something out of the ordinary, feels like i am building something so Hi-Tech that it could fit in to the horticultural department of the U.S.S Enterprise (if there is such a ting)  Laughing  

Stay tuned, will sure be worth it Wink

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dalton Duffett on Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:02 pm

I have two T5 bulbs that I use on my trees. Instead of intense light for short periods, I use low light for about 16 hours a day. My trees seem much happier with this setup. I only have shohins, so that might also change things.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:45 pm

Dalton Duffett wrote:I have two T5 bulbs that I use on my trees. Instead of intense light for short periods, I use low light for about 16 hours a day. My trees seem much happier with this setup. I only have shohins, so that might also change things.

Hmm, you might have something there about shohins ... I use only 40 watts each for an old shohin maple and boxwood, they are really healthy and growing shoots well. It used to be 20 watts for my shohin maple and it was great, but I just made it 40 in anticipation of the arrival of 2 more shohin maples to keep it company. I do have more light for the kifu-sized ones, but I will try to see if lower light is fine with them.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:24 pm

brett2013 wrote:
Dalton Duffett wrote:I have two T5 bulbs that I use on my trees. Instead of intense light for short periods, I use low light for about 16 hours a day. My trees seem much happier with this setup. I only have shohins, so that might also change things.

Hmm, you might have something there about shohins ... I use only 40 watts each for an old shohin maple and boxwood, they are really healthy and growing shoots well.  It used to be 20 watts for my shohin maple and it was great, but I just made it 40 in anticipation of the arrival of 2 more shohin maples to keep it company.  I do have more light for the kifu-sized ones, but I will try to see if lower light is fine with them.

From what i understand T5's are actually the most light intense of all CFL's on the market, the one drawback of T5's is that the light intensity drops dramatically just a few inches from the bulb, but for shohins i can imagine it to be a very good light choice.

Brett, i don't know much about maples and never owned one, but do you have them under these lights indoors?

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Leo Schordje on Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:08 pm

Light intensity drops rapidly regardless of type of lamp. Photons per square inch drops by the square of the distance. If you have 1800 lumens or ft candles at 1 foot, you will have only 200 lumens or ft candles at 3 feet. 1800/(3*3) = 200 this is for all lamps.

The reflector used with your lamp is critical. The more output from the lamp that is directed straight down by the reflector the better. For T-5 my preference is the Sun Blaze brand reflector. For the LED there is an internal to the chip reflector. I am not familiar with manufacture's, but some LED have much better designed reflectors, yielding more directed, focused light.

Gave an orchid talk in Minnesota last weekend. Visited a couple home growers using LED. Systems available seem better than what I had tried in 2008 and 2010. But still heard that Quality Control issues are a problem. Survey of an audience of roughly 50 under lights growers, 30% had to return LED lamps because they failed within 14 days. All reported excellent results once they had a unit the kept working past 60 days. The quality of light has really improve. QC still needs to improve. I'll stick to T-5 another couple years.;

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:23 pm

Thanks for the info, Leo. Smile

I agree that using a good reflector is very important no matter the light source , like you say LED's have a built in chip reflector, but then also a lens mounted over the chip to focus the light even more, even then there is much stray lightning to the sides, so most LED light company's use a extra secondary lens or reflector to focus the light even more.

Have heard the exact same things from people who tested and are using LED for aquariums , when they work they work very well, but quality control is still a big issue as well as the use of bad quality parts like power supply's, non brand LED diodes and inferior heat management, even do the quality has improved i still keep getting the impression its still not good enough for long time use, especially since company's advertise 50-100,000h life of these LED units, but i may add that these problem i speak of looks to be related to Chinese made LED's in almost all cases, is this something you have also heard anything about from orchid growers?








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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:34 am

Dreamcast wrote:

From what i understand T5's are actually the most light intense of all CFL's on the market, the one drawback of T5's is that the light intensity drops dramatically just a few inches from the bulb, but for shohins i can imagine it to be a very good light choice.

Brett, i don't know much about maples and never owned one, but do you have them under these lights indoors?


Dreamcast, 95% of my plants are indoors.  I only use CFLs at the moment.  I live in a very humid weather country, so no issues with humidity for plants.  When the airconditioner is needed to be on, a humidifier near the plants turns on too.

My maples are all shohins, and established (i.e. old).  With my first one, I just used one of these for 16 hours a day -> http://www.megaman.cc/products/cfl/plant-lamp-series/BR0620P/?voltage=220v (it was on sale here for around $3, so I got a lot), under the assumption that maples prefer to be in the shade.  It worked beautifully, about 3 inches above the top of the tree.  Maple was rotated slightly every two days. This light also works very well for my old shohin Boxwoods (buxus harlandii), but I use two for each.

I have 2 more shohin maples arriving this week, and they will be together with this one.  I will add 2 more of the lamps, or maybe go normal CFL with two 55 watts (one 6500 and 2700) to cover the small area of the 3 together

I use stronger CFLs for my "full sun" kifu-sized trees (10-14 in), like the guava, premna, pines, etc.  That's like 295w combined 6500k and 2700k (I don't remember  the equivalent output, but it gives me more than 12000 lumens, I don't remember the lux), and it's proven itself well, as my guava flowered and fruited with the help of hand pollination, and now awaiting my Peach to flower too.  I have the lights 12 hours on, taking a cue from the vast info from the marijuana growers (who need to have great buds).

Currently, I use my photography stands and softboxes with 4- or 5-bulb holders  to provide the lighting.  This makes my living room look like a photography studio, but I will be building a more proper plant stand later where I can just install any light discreetly above the plants and make it neater.

I would just use the 85 Watt CFL - 5000k Full Spectrum used by Praxxus on YouTube (links below) if I could, but they don't sell it here, and where he buys online only has 110v.  He is a heretic in the field of lighting for plants, his is so simple, but it works well for him from experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olxw2JWHEPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e1TLO7hI34


.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:01 pm

Brett, sounds very fun to be able to have almost any tree indoors! Very Happy
Would you mind showing your setup?

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:06 am

Ryan, it all started with one little tree and one little light ...

Time passed and more came in, I just placed them where  I could find a spot near an electric outlet.  And then more ... argh

So I don't have one setup, but several little ones scattered around the house.  Will get some pictures of some as soon as I can.  

My next goal now is to stop bringing in more trees and get them all in one or two spots, arrayed neatly with more discreet lighting. It will be more convenient too as I will only have to dispose one or two big containers of used water rather than several ones.  I get a lot of used water, as water flows  out of each pot so easily.  I reuse the water once into my big ficus retusa trees.  Speaking of ficus, new leaves sprout so fast in bundles, my free time can't keep up with trimming them, it's almost becoming a chore.  I wish they were shohin size, so much easier to work with.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  giga on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:18 pm

I just posted my red mangroves-they are rather large and have been grown on leds

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

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