Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:41 pm

Giga, i just saw it, its very very cool!

Do you mind posting the pictures in this thread and also describe the type of LED's you are using?

I think its good to have everything LED related here, so people that are interested in indoor Bonsai can get inspiration and also get more educated in LED-tech. Smile


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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:45 am

Very nice and neat, Giga  thumbs up 

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:14 am

Here's some quick snapshots, Ryan, a bit messy ...

This is how it is around the house, this is one spot:


"wired" lights


I had these stands made, and I asked the guys to have slanted pieces of metal sheet under and converging towards the center.  This prevents excess water flow from dripping all over the place, as it will flow out of one spot only.  This makes it easy for me to find the right "drain tray" as well*


And there are other trees scattered around the place in smaller stands I got from the kitchen department of malls
This is a Ponamella tree, still trying to ramify, not easy, I'll probably split it up into two pieces later.  Outdoor tree, but real strong indoors too


So my goal is to make it neater and more convenient, put them all together into maybe 2 or 3 of something like this, with the same design as what I have, higher feet, with the top for the lights (to be covered).  This will enable me to attach LEDs and CFL easily (CFLs are a must, as I will have to neutralize the funky color of the LED light, can't have purple lights in the house, unless hidden in a dedicated grow room)


Last edited by brett2013 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:15 am

For those in areas where the sunlight does not weaken, but you have little or no yard space.
Simply reflect sunlight into the room.
There is a great deal of simple technology out there that can do this.

I enjoyed the Youtube features Brett put up, but wondered why aren't the CFLs [ say 100 Watt ] placed more like how the sun moves across the sky?
I imagine a bulb to match 6 a.m. and then maybe one at 9 a.m. / 12 a.m. and so on until 6 p.m. So the plant develops it's foliage more naturally.

Anyhow, I will probably be using reflected sunlight and solar for the cold to grow cold weather trees.

You can grow maples successfully in the Tropics if you just buy an old refrigerator and use the area under the freezer down to the vegetable crisper on probably Low, varies with fridges, but 2 deg.C will make roots go dormant for winter.
Use 2 months of the fridge.
Though I lost my trident maple, because I kept the soil too wet, you can grow the maples.

Interesting discussion, thanks to all.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:17 am

Brett,

it always does my heart good to see such dedication to a hobby.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:27 am

Thanks, Khaimraj, and for the info as well.  I was thinking of those coolers like in the groceries or the flower shops where one can see inside through the glass, that would be cool Smile. I'm dreaming of a Wisteria tree here in the hot humd weather.

Well, like the YouTube guy said, "tell that to my plants", he's happy the way it is.  But I guess if one is really serious, one can do it as you suggested to simulate the outside environment as much as possible.

So much easier outdoors, but unfortunately don't have that luxury


* image from John & Benson Marketing, the guys who made my stands

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:08 am

Brett,

see if you can get a plant of Petrea v. it will provide you with flowers similiar to the Wisteria, it is tropical.
Will flower abundantly in pots.

http://thewildpapaya.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/PETREA-VOLUBILIS.jpg

You are never seeing my stands - ha ha - made from oil field reformer tubing and BRC [ large wire mesh ] painted in rust preventing primer.]
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:02 pm

Oh, great, that really looks like a wisteria !  Will try to find one ... Thanks !

Sandpaper Vine

Well, if I had a yard, any stand will do Smile

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:38 pm

Ryan, what LED lights will you be using ?

I am more inclined towards Dormgrow at the moment ... apparently good support too

http://www.ledgrowlightshq.co.uk/led-grow-lights-uk/

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Great discussions everyone! and like Khaimraj said, wonderful to see such dedication, this thread is going just in the direction i hope it would. Very Happy

Brett, thanks for sharing your setup and experience with indoor bonsai growing, i am getting a lot of new ideas for my coming setup, thanks, your trees are also very beautiful Smile

I have to ask if you may have confused me with being Ryan? this since i can't remember him ever talking about going LED and seam to be quite happy with his current CFL tube setup.

Anyhow, about the LED's you linked to, my advice is not to go with any of them since they are all Chinese LED's with just a fancy name slapped on to it, those type of units have a very very bad reputation for failing very quickly, this is because the quality control in China is very bad when it comes to LED grow lights, and the part's used are not top notch, (see some of the previous posts in this thread) if you really want to try those type of lights my advice is buying directly from the Chinese manufacture's since the price will then be around half Wink

The LED's i will be using are 100% not made in China and build with the very best power supply's, LED's and material, they also don't have that irritating purple light, i will have a big update showing the lights and my setup design this week, so please stay tuned, Brett. Smile

Again, great discussions going on here everyone!



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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:37 am

Dreamcast, sorry, my mistake for calling you Ryan  Embarassed 

Well, I am in no hurry, I will stay tuned.  But why the secrecy of the brand ?  Is it not in the market yet ?

The initial investment for a reasonable LED is high, but in the long run, IF it lasts as long as they claim, then it is more affordable. I still do need the CFLs to negate the purple colors and show me green leaves :-)

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:42 pm

Brett, No problem Smile

Was not my meaning to be secretive about the brand, just wanted to show everything when done, but now a lot have come my way, injury and surgery is one and a renovation of my apartment another.  Neutral  not to mention everything that spring brings to the table when doing bonsai and collecting. (can't wait)

Did at least hook up a smaller temporary setup so i have something to show now, and then hopefully i will get everything properly done soon.



The lights and hanging frame are from a Austrian company named SANlight, they use Highest bin OSRAM Led's, each of these modules consume 30 Watts so 90 Watts total in this temporary setup, and most important the light is warm white, not purple or pink! Very Happy
The fans mounted on the frame are not really necessary, but are there to cool the lights just in case since its a quite small and closed area.

More info can be found on there webpage, i suggest using google translate Wink
http://sanlight.info/produkte/
Even more info and price can be found here.
https://agri-culture.at/product_info.php/products_id/2263

I think i wrote before that this test will be done in 2 identical cabinets? anyhow there will be 6 of these SANlight 30 Watt LED modules in one.
And in the other these 2 lights from a USA company named Apache Tech, they are 120 watt each and have all white 6100K Led's, more info here.
http://www.apachetechinc.com/white-leds/1-white-leds-at120w.html


SANlight and Apache Tech have a very different design of LED lights, and the spectrum of each is also totally different (but white!)
i think it will be very interesting to see how they preform and compare! Very Happy

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:48 am

Thanks, Dreamcast !

Now those are something I'd like, I won't have to add in white light to neutralize purple light. Great job by them then.

Will check it out ...

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:45 am

Brett, I love these small LED units and so do my trees, already i see much better and rapid growth with only 90 Watts LED compared to when i had 2 125 Watt Cfl's (6400K).

The pictures dose not show how crazy bright they are! Very Happy

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:14 pm

This might be of interest for some, took some LUX readings under the lights in this temporary 90 watt LED setup, the surface area is ~75x45 cm, at around 35-40 cm from the lights i got close to 40.000LUX in the middle and around 25.000LUX in the corners, i bet these numbers would go up a lot with reflective walls.

I wish i had a PAR meter to take some serious readings, but those meters are very expensive.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  bwaynef on Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:03 pm

jgeanangel wrote:
Ryan wrote:
As to the power draw, I'm not so certain. It's not a whole lot, as the bulbs are just T5 fluorescents that don't take a lot of power.
If you are using T5HO lamps each lamp is 54watts.
20X54= 1080watts...pretty significant power draw when compared to LEDs...most are in the 1-3 watt/lamp category.  

Ryan...Multiply it out by the number of hours you run the lights per day and the number of days in month and I bet you have impacted your (or your parent's) electric bill noticeably!  Let alone the cost of replacing the T5 lamps every 6 months...at which point they have lost over 50% of their intensity.  

John


Based on the rates of Duke Energy in SC*: http://www.duke-energy.com/pdfs/SCScheduleRS.pdf
1.08 kW x $0.104682/kWh = $0.11306/h. <--- The first 1000 kWh are cheapest. I chose the higher as a worst-case.
Taking some liberties, 16 hours/day x $0.11306/hour = $1.80896/day or $54.27 for a 30 day month.

*I get that Ryan's not in VA. I *am* and so these rates (and comparisons) have meaning for me. Apparently Duke Energy doesn't service VA (or doesn't have it listed on their site).

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  bwaynef on Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:15 pm

I found this for VA's electric rates:
https://www.dom.com/dominion-virginia-power/customer-service/rates-and-tariffs/pdf/vasch1.pdf

$0.02258 for first 800kWh
$0.01285 for add'l kWh.

(Compared with the $0.10+ above for SC.)

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  bwaynef on Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:34 pm

Ok, so maybe this link has better info:
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:46 pm

Dreamcast wrote:Brett, I love these small LED units and so do my trees, already i see much better and rapid growth with only 90 Watts LED compared to when i had 2 125 Watt Cfl's (6400K).

The pictures dose not show how crazy bright they are! Very Happy

I think they should definitely be better than 2 6400k CFL bulbs ... but maybe different if the CFLs were a mix of 6700k and 2700k, even if the plants don't flower ...

I have rapid growth too with mixtures of CFLs, too fast in fact, like I plan to give up some of the big bonsais, I cannot keep up with their growth. I'm not yet a retiree, time is a luxury Smile

Anyway, I still love the concept of LEDs, especially your recommendation as they are white. They will give me cheaper electricity costs in the long run. Our electricity here is ridiculously high, we can't even use a clothes dryer or electricity will probably jump up to the thousands of dollars, unlike when I was in the USA, clothes dryer every day, even more than once a day.

Well, will get my stands sorted first, still figuring it out, and those LEDs will be the finishing touch. Thanks !




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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:01 pm

Brett, i can't really say the exact ratio and Nanometers of the SANlight LED modules, but from what i can see its a mix of cool white and 2 different red LEDs, its even a near IR LED in the middle.
In person the light is warm white. I bet these can even be used for flowering trees.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Leo Schordje on Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:54 pm

For what ever it is worth;
I don't have the specific citations to back this up, but recent research has shown that many of the flavonoids and carotenoids commonly found in most species of plants, function to collect light in wavelengths other than just red and blue. These pigments send the energy from these other wavelengths into the photosynthetic cycle. End result, plants use more than just red and blue for photosynthesis. Yes, they have photosynthetic peaks at the red and blue wavelengths, but it does not bottom out flat at zero at other wavelengths. So at least in my mind, it makes sense to have a light set up that is full spectrum, but extra red and blue is not a bad idea. To me it seems a poor choice, which would limit photosynthetic potential, would be to have a system that is only red and blue lights.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:02 pm

Leo, i agree with you and some extra red and blue should just be a good thing, trees getting plenty of natural light living on a windowsill or greenhouse should be happy with just some added red and blue LED, but to keep bonsai healthy indoors year after year without any natural light then a full spectrum light is IMO absolutely essential.
It was not long ago science almost ruled green and yellow light to be unnecessary for plant growth, that's what made most LED company go red and blue only, then talking about the savings and how efficient LED was since they only gave the plants the light needed, also wild claims like 90w LED replacing a 400w MH/HPS, i remember when hearing that and just thinking WOW! like magic Shocked 
Then the massive user feedback started online with reviews that LED did not live up to the hype, so they got a bad reputation from this, and off course the whole china build panels and horrible quality control issue thing did not help either.

Now research shows that green light actually acts as a booster for other wavelengths of light, and i see many LED company's now taking this in consideration and are going the all white or white with extra red configuration, this makes sense since good brand white LED's today are very efficient, something like 150-200 Lumens per Watt depending on the color temperature is standard.
So i see no real reason for even trying LED's with red and blue only configuration for plants anymore, maybe not even for supplementing natural light, the LED grow light market has matured with quality units being build in EU and US, and the use of better spectrums, top brand LED's and components should in theory make them very efficient and reliable.
This is why i decided to do these LED testings just to see how good they really are and if they finally live up to the hype.



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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:08 pm

brett2013 wrote:
Dreamcast wrote:Brett, I love these small LED units and so do my trees, already i see much better and rapid growth with only 90 Watts LED compared to when i had 2 125 Watt Cfl's (6400K).

The pictures dose not show how crazy bright they are! Very Happy

I think they should definitely be better than 2 6400k CFL bulbs ... but maybe different if the CFLs were a mix of 6700k and 2700k, even if the plants don't flower ...

I have rapid growth too with mixtures of CFLs, too fast in fact, like I plan to give up some of the big bonsais, I cannot keep up with their growth.  I'm not yet a retiree, time is a luxury Smile

Anyway, I still love the concept of LEDs, especially your recommendation as they are white.  They will give me cheaper electricity costs in the long run.  Our electricity here is ridiculously high, we can't even use a clothes dryer or electricity will probably jump up to the thousands of dollars, unlike when I was in the USA, clothes dryer every day, even more than once a day.

Well, will get my stands sorted first, still figuring it out, and those LEDs will be the finishing touch.  Thanks !




Brett, when you mentioned that results may be better with a mix of warm and cool white Cfl's i did some googeling around, and found new research showing that extra red is very good for root growth, and since we all know strong roots are the core foundation of bonsai, then Metal Halide and cool white Cfl's on there own may very well not be the best light options for areas without natural light, just as HPS or 2700k Cfl's alone are not ideal either since they are very red dominant in there spectrum, and to much red will make the tree stretch creating long internodes witch we don't want when ramifying.
So it seams to get the absolute best in both root and green growth its all about a very well balanced high intensity white spectrum that's the best.

It will be interesting to see how the 2 LED's i will use compares in terms of root and green growth, SANlight's M30 Module is a mix of cool white and red LED's giving a warmer white light, and Apache Tech's AT120W is all 6100K LED's so off course more cool white light.

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  brett2013 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:00 pm

Dreamcast, well, it's been old information about mixing light.  One has to mix it, otherwise, it means one is not trying to optimize the simulation of sunlight.

In one of the links I posted here or somewhere, one guy who is not a bonsai grower, but definitely a grower of all other types of plants, he was just using a full spectrum cfl for years and it was good for him.

Anyway, before I go full force into LEDs or look at what you recommended, I bought a 300w 9-band LED light (includes white) to try first.  I don't mind China-made, these guys are open about the LED brands they use (from Taiwan).  Looks good !  

Now the problem ... I have never considered the fans, I didn't realize they had a sound, even if soft.  Most of my trees are in our living room, which is also our home audio and home theater room.  Now we have to play louder so we don't hear the fans' sound.  I have to figure out how to disable the fans, and cool them with quieter external fans.

Is there sound from the LEDs you have ?  Thanks

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:01 pm

I have always heard higher Kelvin temps for non flowering plants and lower for flowering plants, thanks for helping in changing my views on that. Smile 

I don't mind china made stuff either, it's just that when it comes to LED lights they don't have the best track record, but i assume they may have become better, if not they will have to in order to even compete with ones made in EU and US.
Please update on your experience with your new light, pictures of the light would also be cool.

I to have my trees in the living room so can understand your frustration about the fans being disturbing, you should be able to change them out for silent ones quite easy, but since silent fans usually don't move as much air you may want to check with the company first to hear what is needed to properly cool there LED's.

The SANlight M30 LED's i now have in the temporary setup are totally silent since they use no fan but a very large heatsink to cool the LED's.
The Apache Tech AT120W on the other hand uses 2 fans witch where very loud, so i replaced them with ultra silent Noctua fans, now one have to be very close to even hear them. Smile


Last edited by Dreamcast on Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Indoor Bonsai under LED lights.

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