Is old tradition poor taste

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:08 am

Is a Craetegus trained as a traditionel japanese "shokkan" theese days, so outdated in europe, that owners might as well trow them out as no good?

How will a really wellshaped "shokkan" with all the right things done to it be looked at, in an exhibition in europe.

If they dont have craetegus in Japan, can I maybe somehow understand.

How is people in USA looking at this question?

I am worried every time, I see traditions is thrown out. What do you think?

Kind regards Yvonne

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:19 am

moved to The Lounge

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Loke Emil on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Hi Yvonne.

I wouldn't worry that much... the quality of your work is to be commended. A shokkan by your hands, be it hawthorn or not, wouldn't be disregarded in a show per se.

If there is something like trends and fashion in modern exhibition standards and competitions, I wouldn't know, but you might have a point there...seeing all those very (in my opinion beautiful) gnarly and carved hawthorns in European shows these days. NO reason to throw away years of excellent work, though ;-)

it would be really interesting to hear some qualified response to your question. But I wonder why you are asking the American community for opinions ;-)

cheers
/Loke Emil


Last edited by Loke Emil on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

Loke Emil
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:19 pm

I'm wondering what has happened to prompt the question. I'm also wondering what you mean by Shokkan. Can you give us something more to go on here please?

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:35 pm

Hi Loke Emil and Fiona

I find it interesting how the opions are in europe, And also if it is being looked diffrent on, in USA.

" Shokkan" is formal upright, one of the traditionel bonsaishapes in japan.

Kind regards Yvonne

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:40 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:" Shokkan" is formal upright, one of the traditionel bonsaishapes in japan.

This style is probably the hardest to do well, that is why it has "fallen out of favor"

Billy M. Rhodes
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Loke Emil on Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:52 pm

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:
Yvonne Graubaek wrote:" Shokkan" is formal upright, one of the traditionel bonsaishapes in japan.

This style is probably the hardest to do well, that is why it has "fallen out of favor"

...never the less a perfect reason for admitting a fine example in a top show, I'd say, rather than excluding it per se...and the value of tradition with it ;-)

However, has there ever been a formal upright craetagus on display in a top show, anywhere?

cheers
/Loke Emil

Loke Emil
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:13 pm

Oh right. My mistake: I thought formal upright was Chokkan, and I'd wondered if you'd meant Shakan which is slanting style. But whatever.

I personally, and it is IMHO only, favour tree styles that go some way to echoing the natural shape of the tree concerned. I am using the word "echoing" rather than "copying" or "mimicking" because it also seems to me that the stylist can design the tree in an abstract or a natural way. And, again IMHO, the determining factor there will be largely the raw material. In other words if I have a piece of material that is naturally veering towards a windswept, then I am not going to be inclined to try and turn it into a formal or informal upright. I have seen many trees on here whose owners have tried to push them down a style route solely because they "fancy a cascade".

But the original question still perplexes me. Can we assume you have had a formal upright Hawthorn rejected for a show? If so, I'd be pushing the show selectors for their reasons.

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Loke Emil on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:33 pm

Hehe...

If this debate is going to discus reasons for exhibition rejections, we can't but touch a taboo or recognise wether a given top show is educational (say pushing unfavored styles, yet masterpieces) or comercially orientated towards the market value of the show (i.e which styles and master pieces will bring the largest paying crowd inside the counter). And then there is the issue of who's who against only-so-many-display- stands, etc.

Or lets see were else it goes ;-)

cheers
/loke Emil

Loke Emil
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Mitch Thomas on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:39 pm

Yvonne
I think trends in bonsai styles have been going on as long as bonsai has been in existence. If I remember correctly there is a documented case of this when sammari in Japan got board with the standard Bonsai styles, so they invented a new style call Bunjin. It worked beacaues people are always attracted to something they have never seen before. Eventually it became a accepted style.

All art goes thru these trends look at birth of the impressionist or abstract painting gave credence to Picassio or Van Gogh.

It seems as of recent trends are in the direction of " Natural Style " what will be next? Who knows?

IMHO you are much better off making trees that please you! And if a different style arrises and become popular so be it. I thinks its hard to create art thru someone else's expectations.

Mitch

Mitch Thomas
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:36 pm

IMHO you are much better off making trees that please you!

Absolutely!

After all, if you do otherwise, all you are is a "follower."

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:43 pm



I've seen plenty of deciduous trees growing naturally in what you'd call a "formal upright style". For me, it's about how the material is interpreted. I wouldn't want any deciduous tree styled as a formal upright pine, for instance.

Just my opinion.

And I learned "formal upright" as "chokkan" too.

Russell Coker
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:22 pm

Mitch Thomas wrote:Yvonne

It seems as of recent trends are in the direction of " Natural Style " what will be next? Who knows?

IMHO you are much better off making trees that please you! And if a different style arrises and become popular so be it. I thinks its hard to create art thru someone else's expectations.

Mitch

Hi Mitch and all your other guys and Fiona

You are right, it is best just to make the trees that pleases you...This is also what I do....

But somehow I have a nasty feeling, a juniperus chinensis of mine was rejected from a small exhibition, because it was trained oldfashioned. This brought me to pop the question..also have I seen in topics the western natural style is prefered all the time ower traditionel japanese, even though there is nothing natural about a dwarfed " natural" tree in a pot.
I also poped the quiestion, because I am working my bud off, for creating 2 larger craetegus in the chokkan style....nice nebari, the lowest branches thicker than the the branches above, and so on... build up trees. I still have some years work in them, and I absolutely love it...and if they become worth looking at with time, would it be strange for me to have them rejected because of a oldfashioned style everybody forgot about, and only see the trees as unnatural craetegus, wich they are....bonsai.

Not that I dont like the natural styled rough yamadoritrees at all...I find them very interesting, and would want to have many of them, but this is not my way of doing them, they even become feminine , I guess it is just me who are a little boring Embarassed ...
I will keep up my work, as this is what I want to do...I just had a quiet moment thinking.

I just saw your reply Russel....A deciduous tree styled as a pine? is it the top turned dawn?.....I hate this too, a tree need to have a top growing up.

Kind regards Yvonne

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:45 pm

My observation would be that in Europe there has been a movement towards a more abstract design, certainly with coniferous trees. This has not (again IMHO) been always a good thing as I find myself at shows thinking that many of the trees are the same as the one beside. It's not quite cookie cutter yet but to my mind it's heading that way. For that reason I like the deciduous trees as they seem to have retained an individuality, but I am also aware that this may be more because deciduous trees are still under-represented at shows.

With regard to hawthorn as formal upright - I personally think there are few trees that naturally lend themselves to this style and I wouldn't put hawthorn in that category. I would put it in Informal Upright where, IMO, most of the hawthorns we see at major shows would sit. Look at this thread from a year or so back - for me (with no disrespect to artist or workmanship) the Chokkan hawthorns shown by Mario do not look right whereas the informal upright ones do. CLICK HERE

The other debate here is of course the old chestnut of whether we should slavishly follow styles just because the Japanese do it that way. From what I can see a lot of the show quality material in/from Japan is veering towards the abstract so they too are bending those "rules" somewhat.

For me it remains about how good an image it presents - abstract or natural. But it also is about the refinement of the tree, and to my eye an unrefined (i.e. under-developed) tree of any style is not a candidate for a show.

As I say - just my VHO.

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Nunovsky_PT on Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:02 pm

If one could tilt this one a little bit to the right, couldn't this beech be considered a "chokan"? It's a japanese beech but I believe it to be a good example of a deciduous tree designed in the formal upright style.


Nunovsky_PT
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:31 pm



Thanks. I've seen beech, zelkova and hackberry all styled similarly in Japan - and all called Chokkan.

Fi, I see your point too. With their beauty and natural movement, the European hawthorns shown on this forum are the envy of the world. I would think that a chokkan hawthorn would be a hard sell indeed, but IF done well could also be a show stopper.

R

Russell Coker
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:45 pm

I'd be more than happy to see that but I think (won't know til I've seen it) that my mind would associate it with an abstract tree rather than a hawthorn, if you see what I mean. Nuno's example works perfectly for me as either informal or formal upright.

_________________
"Espouse elucidation"
_____________________________________

my website

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:01 pm

Hi Nunovski

Thanks for showing this very nice tree.

Hi Russel

Your reply to Fiona, does say it all...a craetugus chokkan, has to be better than nice.

Hi Fione

Thanks for giving me the time to reply on this forum with your thoughts....I have, and can have all the fun in the world with my two trees, but I better make them VERY nice, and let them grow VERY old, if they ever shall become really worth looking at, in an exhibition, together with really old, nice yamadori ditos.

In the future will I have to look more on the kind of yamadori, before deciding the style of it, or even, should I dig it up?....but then again, if a tree is asking to become chokkan, will I do it all ower again, and have my fun Smile

Kind regards Yvonne

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:09 pm

fiona wrote:I'd be more than happy to see that but I think (won't know til I've seen it) that my mind would associate it with an abstract tree rather than a hawthorn, if you see what I mean.


Since it would seem to be so different from we're used to seeing, I know exactly what you mean.

I don't mean to get all esoteric, but isn't that what happens when we style satsuki? Their "natural" growth is just a bush with a bunch of sticks, so we "borrow" the form of a pine. Since satsuki don't have a "tree form" of their own and this is the way we always see satsuki bonsai no one bats an eye. Again, I can see where a hawthorn chokkan would be a hard sell.

Russell Coker
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  marcus watts on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:16 pm

what an interesting thread.. Very Happy

my feelings are to always work with the best possible outcome for the material you have, regardless of species - these are the trees in our collections that look like bonsai.

Now and again I want to add a 'named style' design to the collection (semi cascade, twin trunk etc) so I tend to search for the material to fit the design rather than force potentially unsuitable trees to fit the design i want.

sometimes just to play i'll radically change material as a learning excercise to see just what is possible and how much you can get away with.

Out of curiosity was the 'old fashioned' rejected juniper pom poms of foliage on the ends of branches ? this could be considered un-show-worthy in this day and age as everything progresses, and currently refinement is one of the few things that can set a good show tree apart from the masses. I think if your hawthorns had perfect trunks and absolute perfect branch placement they should be formal uprights, but i would not spend years trying if they could be better in another style.

The current 'naturalistic' phase going through Europe isnt being done very well in most cases at the moment I feel, as the trees are all being styled to just look like a similar wild generic tree when naturalistic should instantly suggest the actual species being used and mimmick its natutral form perfectly - so an elm will look different to a beech, to a maple etc.

cheers Marcus

marcus watts
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:32 am

My take on this and a fact that I already accepted,


....If you are planning to do non traditional bonsai be sure to that you will enjoy it. but don't expect much to win anything in a show if you would exhibit a non traditional tree, or even a non traditional set up. The reason for this is I think although more people now are leaning towards the non traditional way (naturalistic style), there is still a huge favor given to the traditional styling of trees when it comes to judging a presentation of tree in a show. maybe, the dogma on the traditional way will stay in the minds of the traditional judges for a longer time. and the fact remains that they are the majority.

A wise man once told me- "that somebody must start the "proper way", somebody who is not much concerned about winning in an exhibition"..."Not winning" in mind if joining in a competition is very hard to swallow for most people specially if you paid the same entry fee as others who made their trees based on the judging criteria sheet...but some body got to do it. Rolling Eyes Sad

variations in styles, which is good for the viewers can only be achieved if there is a variation in styling.

Note- I am expressing this fact based on my own experienced here in our country and based on the info given to me by a very experienced bonsai judge here that I respect, but maybe it is the same fact elsewhere...Is it not?


regards,
jun Smile



Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  JMcCoy on Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:41 am

I think as this artform advances and marches across the planet, we're going to adapt our ideas, and yes, some of the older ideas will be reduced or forgotten in some ways. Fashion and styles come and go. Anyone remember tako-tsuki, or "octopus style"??? Lots of books from the 1960's and back featured this twisted curved style and they were common in many of the big collections (at least in the US). There were also bonsai styled to resemble Kanji and other things that have fallen away as well. Our asthetics change, and I think one of the changes is also in the straight-trunk formal upright deciduous tree. That beech is beautiful, but it's a difficult technique and most chokkan broadleaf seem to look like pines. Having said that, a well-styled and impressively aged tree will usually shine though any style imposed on it!

JMcCoy
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  marcus watts on Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:54 pm

yes Jun...........well put,

you can enter a show to try and win the judges prizes.............i think the very best shows have a prize voted as the "peoples favorite" and this is the tree most normal viewers like the most - if ever i win a prize i hope to win this one as it is the only real one voted on mass by normal people, so will be the most pleasing tree to look at.

marcus

marcus watts
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:36 am

marcus watts wrote:yes Jun...........well put,

you can enter a show to try and win the judges prizes.............i think the very best shows have a prize voted as the "peoples favorite" and this is the tree most normal viewers like the most - if ever i win a prize i hope to win this one as it is the only real one voted on mass by normal people, so will be the most pleasing tree to look at.

marcus

Interesting, and nice said....

I would like it very much, if photos of many " peoples favorite" trees will be posted here, please let us see what people like...

Kind regards Yvonne

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  marcus watts on Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:35 am

this was very much admired at the last local show - (the newspaper reporter covering the show did a picture shoot of just this tree for his story). The lady Mayor loved it too Very Happy . there are no prizes at the local show though, just pride





marcus watts
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Sponsored content Today at 12:47 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 4 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum