Is old tradition poor taste

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:14 pm

Hi Marcus, thanks for showing....Your tree may have won because of the perfect red leaves on the day, together with the pot who is absolutely right with the leaves.

If more people show their " peoples favorite" here, would I think it is nice, if you let us know, why you think it won.

Some years ago, this shohindisplay... one of my first.. won the "peoples favorite", and also did it win the judges price ( Marco Invernezi)....I think it was the unusual tamarix that did the "trick" that day, together with the fact, that all trees was made by me.....Many things in this display is wrong, and what on earth is going on with the tree on the top...bad hairday Smile



Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:21 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:

I would like it very much, if photos of many " peoples favorite" trees will be posted here, please let us see what people like...

Kind regards Yvonne



I like this Yvonne!

...This way we might know what the "regular folks" visiting bonsai shows wanted to really see without biased eyes on the norms that we bonsai people are so busy trying to achieved.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:35 pm

marcus watts wrote:this was very much admired at the last local show - (the newspaper reporter covering the show did a picture shoot of just this tree for his story). The lady Mayor loved it too Very Happy . there are no prizes at the local show though, just pride






...Pride Marcus! Pride! sunny That is the more important thing. Trophies, ribbons, certificate are the material things that also give pride....BUT..shows and awards can be rigged (I have seen it many times). but the true pride and honor were always given by the people appreciating the real crowd drawer, and it cannot be rigged in any way.



regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Walter Pall on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:11 am

Last weekend I was at the BFF summer meeting 2012. This is a meeting of the German forum members and part of it is a bonsai exhibit. Here are four results that might interest you:

People's choice best tree of show - pomegranate



They could have also chosen the one which won 'best display'



Or this one - best collected tree, mugo



Or this one - best deadwood -shimpaku



Or this one, best broadleaved tree - Chinese elm



Or this one - best of show -Scots pine



But no, they chose the pomegrantae. Probably because it was in bloom. Now this should tell us a bit about the public's taste vs. the judges taste.

So how much is the title 'public's choice ' really worth? Not much in my eyes.






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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  coh on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:25 am

Interesting. I'm a painter, and whenever I've been in shows that have a "people's choice" award, the winner is almost always either (1) a painting by the person who invited the most "friends" to the show (and probably encouraged them to vote), or (2) a painting that looks just like a photograph - with everything in sharp focus. Rarely is it a painting that is given an award by the judge, or one that the other artists prefer- which is usually something more "painterly" with more personal interpretation of the scene.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:34 am

Hi Walter

It will show us, what captures people not into bonsai, and maybe trick them to start making bonsai, information witch can be interesting for clubs, who want new members.....New pretty leaves, a small tree with rare hanging branches, and flowers.

The price will tell you, your tree may not at all be the best, but on the day it had something nice and diffrent, and many people saw it.....In a perfect world would a price given from only the people who exhibit, be much more interesting... But I dont think it is needed.

The peoples favorite is most of all created to bring activity and fun to the exhibition.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:50 am




Yep, as far as I'm concerned a "people's choice" award is nothing I'd crow about personally - unless those "people" are bonsai people. As far as the general public is concerned, they're just as likely to vote for a sprouted potato as a real masterpiece sitting right next to it.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  marcus watts on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:37 am

Russell Coker wrote:


Yep, as far as I'm concerned a "people's choice" award is nothing I'd crow about personally - unless those "people" are bonsai people. As far as the general public is concerned, they're just as likely to vote for a sprouted potato as a real masterpiece sitting right next to it.

mmmmmm? - you've set yourself on a higher plane of understanding and worthiness than mere general public then - every single one of us are the general public are we not ? all people know what pleases them, what looks good, pleasing or natural. And as you should know perfectly well 90% of the people walking around a specialist bonsai exhibition are 'bonsai people' anyway - so the vote from the attendants for the tree they like the most would include many 'bonsai people' would it not? I cant of course speak for you or the shows you attend but I know we try a bit harder to all provide our best trees for paying guests to enjoy so sprouting potatoes dont actually make it onto the benches as the main tree - maybe as an accent though ? it would signify spring quite nicely Very Happy

bonsai are for all to enjoy and comment on, not for a pretentious minority to use to set themselves up as some kind of wannabe mystical master who has secret inner knowledge......if you could ever be in the position to help out on a bonsai exhibition at a show like the famous Chelsea flower show you would see the joy and genuine interest the general public have in our hobby - the very same public are often some of the most skilled and experienced horticulturalists you could ever meet too- just because they aren't 'bonsai people' it doesnt mean there observations are worth any less.

each to their own though - i'm happy chatting with the mayor and the public rather than being in a little huddle of wannabes finding fault in everyone elses trees...........(if asked to comment by the owner of course I'll suggest what i can, but that is different)

Marcus



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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  marcus watts on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:44 am

the general public at their best - it made no difference if they were Royals, foreign princesses, multi millionaires or just people like you and me....everyone loved the pink satsuki



chelsea flower show, 2012, a tree that caused a traffic jam for 5 or 6 hours Very Happy

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:56 am


That's all nice Marcus, but I'm not even referring to the Chelsea Flower Show general public. Go a few notches lower on the food chain. Not all of us who have the rare occasion to show bonsai can do so in a venue like that. My club sets up at the local library, so at least it's not the mall crowd.

Your idea of "general public" and mine are obviously 2 very different things. Remember, I'm in America, and worse Alabama. Art, music and science take a back seat to sports around here.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  coh on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:05 am

The crowd around the pink satsuki almost proves the point. You could probably put almost any reasonably-shaped potted azalea there, covered with showy flowers, and it would attract a crowd. Especially if most of the other trees were non-flowering.

I spent a fair bit of time doing "security" at the recent show in Rochester - i.e., people-watching. The trees that seemed to attract the most interest from "non bonsai" people, as far as I could tell, were the ones with flowers (mainly the few azaleas) and the one hanging out of the bottom of a pot (the one that won best western display). Rarely did I see anyone from the general public lingering in front of that spectacular coast redwood. Draw from that what you will!

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:22 am

I can't remember the last show in which a people's choice award was given that I agreed with the popular vote.

Maybe back in 1492.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:43 pm

fiona wrote:Oh right. My mistake: I thought formal upright was Chokkan, and I'd wondered if you'd meant Shakan which is slanting style. But whatever.

I personally, and it is IMHO only, favour tree styles that go some way to echoing the natural shape of the tree concerned. I am using the word "echoing" rather than "copying" or "mimicking" because it also seems to me that the stylist can design the tree in an abstract or a natural way. And, again IMHO, the determining factor there will be largely the raw material. In other words if I have a piece of material that is naturally veering towards a windswept, then I am not going to be inclined to try and turn it into a formal or informal upright. I have seen many trees on here whose owners have tried to push them down a style route solely because they "fancy a cascade".

But the original question still perplexes me. Can we assume you have had a formal upright Hawthorn rejected for a show? If so, I'd be pushing the show selectors for their reasons.

ABSOLUTELY agree with Fiona ! In my opinion, there is no so called a trend or fashion in bonsai art, simply like no trend or fashion in trees' form in nature. As the basic phylosophy of bonsai is "a natural mature tree in miniature size, beautifully shaped and potted in a container".. so as bonsai, any styles are valid forever...there are improved quality bonsai, but no outdated bonsai.
Whatever you call echoing or copying or mimicking, as Fiona said, the important point is to create the bonsai as what the materials tell us so that it "logically" portraying a mature tree in nature with all the plant physiology and plant morphology aspects...with artistic touch.

A "style" in bonsai simply a "pose" with certain "viewing angle" to look at, just like how we take our self photograph, you can pose in 3 different angles in "formal style" as a criminal photos..or in any action to express your mimics. The same bonsai material, styled in different pose and looked from different angles will suggest different moods, that's so called "styles"..I think....

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:58 pm

Robert Steven wrote: ... criminal ...
that certainly describes some of my early attempts at bonsai. Mad

I'm afraid I agree with most posters about the "people's choice". In my experience, at "public" shows (i.e. those geared towards the general rather than the bonsai public) the tree that wins people's choice will either have flowers or will be a red maple. PLUS, it wont actually matter how good a tree it is. The one Marcus showed has at least the merit of being a good bonsai. I have seen ones with no real shape, style, ramification, nebari etc win just because it is a red maple. While there is a decent level of interest in the trees among the general public (I'm talking about garden show bonsai displays rather than the likes of Best of British exhibition here), it is clear to me that the public like things that are "pretty" rather than anything well executed as a bonsai. The saving grace is that for every x amount with that idea, there is one who "gets it" and becomes inspired to try bonsai for themselves.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:55 pm


This tree is styled as bonsai...I hope!,,,because I tried to. Embarassed Crying or Very sad

This tree, won a windswept award, judged by regular bonsai judges









This tree won peoples choice- judged by the regular mall people, and unofficial award-most photographed by local Journalist..and I saw it 3 times in 3 different TV shows.







This tree won gold in national contest...and most innovative design, judged by a foreigner judge and local judge



...It's not the best tree, I know, but I am contented that mall goers, photographers and regular bonsai folks got the same taste.


PS. just want to prove a point, NOT BRAGGING...sorry!

This I can brag about----Tony Tickle likes it too. Wink hehehe

regards,
jun Smile








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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:48 pm



Jun, do you think it would have had the same impact and results if the kid and the kite weren't there?

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:28 pm

Hi Russell,
I don't know Russell.
I don't want to judge my own tree, I let other people do that job.

But here, there is a competition for best windswept design, best fruiting bonsai, flowering etc...for windswept design, a respectable good friend of mine told me it is a good windswept. It got all (maybe) the foundation and principle of windswept design (Oh yeh I followed the "rules" too..lol) So just the slab and the tree maybe it is a good windswept,,,just maybe, because he told me so.

As for the impact without the kite background and the boy,,,that is another story....a story well suited for this topic of -"Is old tradition..."
But the point that I am trying to raise is that a peoples choice doesn't have to be always filled with colors or fruits...sometimes a kite will do Wink .

But my main objective was achieved 100% on this one...to let viewers know that BONSAI can be FUN.


I got a question too....What is the point of using accent plants, accent accessories, scrolls, or even well crafted tables and stand? For me it is not part of the tree, but the basic purpose is to have a nice display to give more emotion to the tree or to enhance or to ACCENTUATE the feelings that the tree cannot do alone.....same as the purpose of my kite and boy...it is just done differently, but the objective is quite the same.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  coh on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:32 pm

Russell Coker wrote:

Jun, do you think it would have had the same impact and results if the kid and the kite weren't there?
Exactly!

Just like the glowing pink azalea in a sea of green (complementary color contrast), or the tree hanging out of the pot bottom...people are attracted to things that are different. We're really not much more advanced than bowerbirds!

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:48 pm



coh wrote: We're really not much more advanced than bowerbirds!

Yep.

Jun, it was a rhetorical question - sort of.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:48 pm

We're really not much more advanced than bowerbirds!




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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:50 pm

coh wrote:
Russell Coker wrote:

Jun, do you think it would have had the same impact and results if the kid and the kite weren't there?
Exactly!

Just like the glowing pink azalea in a sea of green (complementary color contrast), or the tree hanging out of the pot bottom...people are attracted to things that are different. We're really not much more advanced than bowerbirds!


Exactly!.... even to trees that stand out among the common trees.

And I think and I observed, but I don't want to name the names like Robert Steven, Walter Pall, Lo Min Hsuan, Dan Robinson...and many great artists that I also dont want to mention. Their trees are different from the regular ones. Their approach are different from each other but still their approach are unique and quite different from the general bonsai practitioners. So maybe, just maybe, being attracted to something that is different, is the first step towards a more open minded approach and then those who will take those first steps can think more advanced than bowerbirds.

regards,
jun Smile











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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:58 pm

jun wrote:Their trees are different from the regular ones. Their approach are different from each other but still their approach are unique and quite different from the general bonsai practitioners.
Kinda ironic that these people whose trees are "unique and different" seems to be the ones who are going back to basics/nature (as I see it--but I may be mistaken).

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:00 pm

jun wrote:[quote="cohExactly!.... even to trees that stand out among the common trees.


But was it the tree that was standing out? Or the kitschy stuff with it?

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  coh on Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:03 pm

JimLewis wrote:
We're really not much more advanced than bowerbirds!




Is it just me, or does the bowerbird appear insulted by my comment?

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:07 pm



If you were a bowerbird, wouldn't you be?

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

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