My poor Elm.

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My poor Elm.

Post  moyogijohn on Thu May 03, 2012 3:59 pm

Please check this one out for me, the discoloration of the leaves a the leaves are dropping. Also what can I do about the bulge at the base of the trunk. Thank you very much! John




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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Fore on Thu May 03, 2012 4:07 pm

Maybe black spot fungus? Elms are notorious at getting this. The bulge, I don't think much.

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Thu May 03, 2012 4:11 pm

Air layer above or make a shari, cut off the branch and crave the trunk.

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My poor Elm.

Post  moyogijohn on Thu May 03, 2012 4:23 pm

Fore,,,Billy,, Thanks guys .. i have spray and have used it once already.. Billy you say take the small branch off then carve ??? i would like to know how much ..i ruined one elm carving !!!!! take care john

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My poor Elm.

Post  moyogijohn on Thu May 03, 2012 4:26 pm

Fore,,,Billy,, Thanks guys .. i have spray and have used it once already.. Billy you say take the small branch off then carve ??? i would like to know how much ..i ruined one elm carving !!!!! take care john

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Russell Coker on Thu May 03, 2012 4:37 pm



Air layer it AT the bulge. Are you keeping it too wet?

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  lordy on Thu May 03, 2012 5:29 pm

I agree with Russell--if you air layer at the wide part of the bulge, or just below, then you may be able to take advantage of the wider area as a beginning of root flare. Use the bottom branch as a root--layer it also.
Then cut the remaining trunk so the bulge is gone and grow a new top. Two trees.



Are you getting those odd little pouches or growths on the new leaves? Curling at all? Those are what I had that turned out to be a type of aphid that got in early this year. Those wont do any real harm other than current growth disfigurement. Insecticide wont do any good since they live inside the pouches that are sealed. Pinch the leaves off and crush them or burn right away.

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My poor Elm.

Post  moyogijohn on Thu May 03, 2012 6:37 pm

Russell they don,t feel too wet,,,most is just rain watering.. LORDY,, Thank you for the opsion you drew on the trunk.. i am cutting the leaves that curl some but i will spray a little anyway.. i can,t see any bugs in those leaves i unroled a few of them.. thanks guys john

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Thu May 03, 2012 6:52 pm

moyogijohn wrote:Russell they don,t feel too wet,,,most is just rain watering.. LORDY,, Thank you for the opsion you drew on the trunk.. i am cutting the leaves that curl some but i will spray a little anyway.. i can,t see any bugs in those leaves i unroled a few of them.. thanks guys john

Thrips take a microscope to see and they are frequently the cause of curled leaves, especially on new growth because they get in the bud and do their damage before you can really see leaves.

As to carving, I am not an expert. In this case your goal is to reduce that area of trunk to a natural taper, no more. I think I would carve the bump away and then bring the shari down over the top of that large root just below the bump. Maybe something that looked like an upside down tear drop?

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Russell Coker on Thu May 03, 2012 8:47 pm

lordy wrote:I agree with Russell--if you air layer at the wide part of the bulge, or just below, then you may be able to take advantage of the wider area as a beginning of root flare. Use the bottom branch as a root--layer it also. Then cut the remaining trunk so the bulge is gone and grow a new top. Two trees.



See? The new tree has much nicer porportions.


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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Guest on Sun May 06, 2012 1:36 pm

Hi John!

I see it now. thanks for the PM...sorry for the late reply, busy with the ongoing show. Anyway, Is it possible for you so show other angle/sides of the elm. Is it really a bulge or an elbow of the bended trunk? I have several of these type of trunks and some are worst than yours, but they are now part of the bigger elm forest and you wont notice any "bulge" or unnatural bend. What I am trying to say is try to see first if there is still other solutions to the design,,,and the rather drastic options would be the last solution.

Do you have have other elms? I would like to play some simple group planting for you if you won't mind. just show the photos and if possible the trees are photograph side by side.

PS. one of the elm I have with the same character as yours, I turned it into raft style affraid by planting the tree sideways and removing branches on the side that will be placed on the ground, then I grew the branches on the opposite side (above ground now) as new individual trunks, turns out good and used it as the little trees behind the huge elm forest. Check it out in my huge elm forest in the other thread. the smallest trees in the back are the raft trees from mallsai like yours.

regards,
jun Smile



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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  hometeamrocker on Mon May 07, 2012 1:22 am

Is this the same elm from your other elm problem post? I've been having terrible trouble with my leaves turning yellow, then black and crispy and falling off. I tried fungus spray to no avail and today I finally slip potted it into a bigger pot and drainage was definately the problem. I used soil from the Monestary when I repotted this year, but I didn't sift. Fine particles were all caked up at the bottom.

I put it in a cut down nursery container that was considerably deeper and slightly wider than it's bonsai pot with a soil that I mixed. Was it a rookie mistake to not sift what I filled in around it this time in a contaner? Not trying to hijack, hopefully my experience and the answer to this question helps us both m'john.

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my poor elm

Post  moyogijohn on Mon May 07, 2012 2:07 am

hometeamrocker,,,thank you,,you are more than likely right !! i don,t have in my area the things to make soil right.. my elms do the same as yours but my other trees don,t as much...i need to find the right soil mixture or quit with elms though that is my favorit tree !!!!! thanks take care john

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Poink88 on Mon May 07, 2012 2:36 am

moyogijohn wrote:hometeamrocker,,,thank you,,you are more than likely right !! i don,t have in my area the things to make soil right.. my elms do the same as yours but my other trees don,t as much...i need to find the right soil mixture or quit with elms though that is my favorit tree !!!!! thanks take care john
John,

I hope you don't give up on elm...it is one of my favorites too.

I have a few cedar elm that I collected and they are in variety of soil. Since they were my first collected trees, most have their original soil with fillers "amended" with oil-dri. I only remove soil when it is obviously clay, otherwise, I pot them with as much original soil, root disturbed the least possible and they are all growing fine. I had a few that died on me but I believe those were dead to begin with (again rookie mistake not checking under the bark first). One that I know was alive that died on me was collected late and I barely got any root on it.

The message is that they can tolerate a wide range of soil type (at least in my experience)...but wet feet can and will kill it.

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  marcus watts on Mon May 07, 2012 8:59 am

Hi,
Everyone is getting a little bit ahead of themselves with airlayers, new trunk lines, carving etc. The tree needs to be 100% strong, healthy and growing like crazy for it to make good strong roots via layering - and it really needs a minimum of a year of strong healthy growing before starting the layer too, so it would be best to get the tree and leaves perfect first.

if the tree lives ok but always struggles for perfect health the soil is usually wrong, but personally with chinese elm i would totally AVOID bonsai soil indredients - no turface, akadama, cat litter, or any other granular bonsai soil. It is the only tree in my collection that absolutely thrives in a mix of standard potting compost and grit. i've had the tree about 23 years, it has lived outside the whole time and is incredibly dense and healthy - no leaves are ever curled, yellow etc. Gallery Chinese Elm

The one time i had to rescue a poorly elm it was put in the garden for 2 years and allowed to grow - totally organic soil again.

cheers Marcus

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Russell Coker on Mon May 07, 2012 1:21 pm



Good point Marcus. Whatever you do it needs to be healthy FIRST...

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my poor elm

Post  moyogijohn on Mon May 07, 2012 5:17 pm

MARCUS,, Thanks for your reply... with trees like you posted,, I may as well BURN mine !!!! you have a great collection !! take care john

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  marcus watts on Mon May 07, 2012 5:41 pm

hi John,

no Embarassed - its only because these are the result of over 23 years growing bonsai, and I am now at the nice end of the cycle where I reduced the tree collection from 90+, to 35, to about 20. It lets you be extra fussy which ones to keep (and 20 is about the limit to look after properly as I run a factory full time). With a few species I've sold 4 or 5 of a kind to buy just one nicer one. The years of practice on any material are essential though - you need to know the tollerances of every species, every branch bend and the likely result of every technique. Plus in the early days a few do die while you test the boundaries, but luckily nothing has died in the last 10 years ! Wink.

For your elm I'd mix up some good old fashioned good quality potting compost with some grit about 2-4mm size, and if you can get it some perlite (its not essential but the roots love the warmth) it will be good but not essential. Shake or wash the old soil from the tree gently and pot it in the new soil without damaging roots if you can. Tie the tree in tightly with aluminium wire - this is essential to future success as the tree needs to be solid to thrive - just see how poorly a wobbly tree responds compared to a wired in one. start feeding in 3 weeks and prune off any thin weak shoots once the tree is growing well. If you want a really easy way to improve the roots and base without risking the tree next year drill shallow 3-4mm holes around the bulgy bit about 1cm apart, dust the holes with root hormone powder and put a plastic collar around the inside of the pot so it gets deeper. Add more soil inside the collar so you cover the holes and roots will sprout the tree growth will not suffer - it actually speeds up as their are more roots for the same sized tree.

cheers Marcus

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My poor Elm.

Post  moyogijohn on Mon May 07, 2012 7:54 pm

JIM,,,MARCUS,,, Thank you for your advice and your post... I now know a different way to work with the tree.. thanks take care john

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Poor Elm Tree

Post  moyogijohn on Tue May 15, 2012 11:25 pm

I'd like some help finishing this please.



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my poor elm

Post  moyogijohn on Tue May 15, 2012 11:32 pm

AS You can see I started to carve the lump off to make a hollow in the trunk...i did not want to go too far and ruin it so i am asking for advice...how much deeper ??? does it need to be larger ??? thank you very much take care john

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Wed May 16, 2012 5:33 pm

OK, I think the cut is deep enough, but might need to go higher. You need to trim the edges of the cut so that you have live wood. The edges should slope toward the cut rather than be straight, this exposes more tissue where the callus will form and promote healing.

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  sunip on Wed May 16, 2012 7:58 pm

Hello John,
Maybe like this?
Sunip Wink

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my poor elm

Post  moyogijohn on Wed May 16, 2012 9:26 pm

Billy ,,Thank you for posting,,i thought about higher that is good..also i am going to slop the edges i just did not want to go too fast until i got suggestions...SUNIP I like the way your picture looks what did you do ????? thanks guys take care john

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Re: My poor Elm.

Post  sunip on Fri May 18, 2012 10:06 am

Hello John.

Sunip Wink

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Re: My poor Elm.

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