Is old tradition poor taste

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:13 pm

jun wrote:
coh wrote:
Russell Coker wrote:

Jun, do you think it would have had the same impact and results if the kid and the kite weren't there?
Exactly!

Just like the glowing pink azalea in a sea of green (complementary color contrast), or the tree hanging out of the pot bottom...people are attracted to things that are different. We're really not much more advanced than bowerbirds!


Exactly!.... even to trees that stand out among the common trees.

And I think and I observed, but I don't want to name the names like Robert Steven, Walter Pall, Lo Min Hsuan, Dan Robinson...and many great artists that I also dont want to mention. Their trees are different from the regular ones. Their approach are different from each other but still their approach are unique and quite different from the general bonsai practitioners. So maybe, just maybe, being attracted to something that is different, is the first step towards a more open minded approach and then those who will take those first steps can think more advanced than bowerbirds.

regards,
jun Smile












I would like to quote my post...sorry can't help it.
I won't mind thinking like a bowerbird, if that's what it take to advance further in my line of thinking in bonsai...a more progressive line of thinking. Pick something that is different like a bowerbird, think like a human to pick which one is nice among those different things, then study it, apply the knowledge in your bonsai work. That way I would move forward because bonsai works are so slow process, before I can finish a tree without thinking, I'll be an old man trying to enjoy small potted plants...or trying to pretend to enjoy it...even if it is the ugliest one.

regards,
jun Smile



Last edited by jun on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:16 pm

coh wrote:
JimLewis wrote:
We're really not much more advanced than bowerbirds!




Is it just me, or does the bowerbird appear insulted by my comment?


I think it is just you Chris!

I like blue eyes.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:18 pm

jun wrote:That way I would move forward because bonsai works are so slow process, before I can finish a tree without thinking, I'll be an old man trying to enjoy small potted plants...or trying to pretend to enjoy it.
Gah! May I remind you that you have 3x more growing season than some of our members!?!?! LOL geek Can you imagine doing it that sssllllooooowwwww ? lol! tongue

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:27 pm

Poink88 wrote:
jun wrote:That way I would move forward because bonsai works are so slow process, before I can finish a tree without thinking, I'll be an old man trying to enjoy small potted plants...or trying to pretend to enjoy it.
Gah! May I remind you have 4x more growing season than some of our members!?!?! LOL geek Can you imagine doing it that sssllllooooowwwww ? lol! tongue


Yes I know. That is what I am saying.

bower birds are intelligent creatures.

What a person shouldn't copy is to think like sardines...just go where the school of sardines is, don't think, just go where others go.,,, because the next thing you'll know you'll end up inside a can. Razz there are people like that.

regards,
jun Razz

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:39 pm

jun wrote:...don't think, just go where others go.,,,
Maybe if I do, I will get in less trouble than I normally do. Wink Very Happy

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:46 pm


You know, Dario, so much of it boils down to personal taste. What's "thinking outside the box" for someone is gimmicky for another.

And now I'll let Jun have the last word... Very Happy

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:57 pm

Russell,

Unluckily, I am years (maybe decades) away from having a show worthy tree so I do not have to worry about that for a while (maybe never). Personally, I am a traditional guy but I appreciate new ideas and open to change.

"Gimmickry" happens but if it clicks or works why not? That is the beauty of diversified group...we can all have our own ideas, beliefs, approach, etc. and may not agree or accept but we should at least try to understand and respect those differences.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:06 pm

Russell Coker wrote:
jun wrote:[quote="cohExactly!.... even to trees that stand out among the common trees.


But was it the tree that was standing out? Or the kitschy stuff with it?


Maybe yes or maybe no Russell, I am not much interested to know. it goes as one whole package,,,,but the question that I am more interested in is that...Did the tree or composition you displayed bring joy to people, the old folks, the not too old and even to small kids,,, to bonsai folks and the regular folks alike who view it and as a result bring joy to yourself as well? That I can give you the answer- Yes it did!, and it's a mission accomplished for me...never mind the trophies and award.

Other question I got from other people who saw my display is, "Do you also do regular bonsai?". I comfortly said "yes...not so great ones but yes I got several hundreds of regular trees, visit IBC and you'll see them". So, my point is having something unique and different from the rest of your own collection if not the rest of the world is not a bad thing, and showing it to people in shows is not a crime but an act of sharing something that you think is nice but cannot be seen elsewhere.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:08 pm

And now I'll let Jun have the last word...

I dunno, Russell . . .

Between Dario and Jun, it's hard to guess who'll have it (or them).

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:12 pm

JimLewis wrote:
And now I'll let Jun have the last word...

I dunno, Russell . . .

Between Dario and Jun, it's hard to guess who'll have it (or them).
I don't know where this came from but I am posting...
1. To prove you right.
2. To thank you for contributing to the discussion.

I thought moderators are supposed to avoid trouble...not start one. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:20 pm

Russell Coker wrote:
You know, Dario, so much of it boils down to personal taste. What's "thinking outside the box" for someone is gimmicky for another.

And now I'll let Jun have the last word... Very Happy

I rest my case for now Russell...

...but here is my last word (for now hehehe)----------Most, if not all of the discoveries of man were done by "thinking outside of the box"- Gimmickry? Who cares? prototype cars were thought to be a useless gimmickry to kill the horse carriage industry.


now back to my "unconventional set up"-
...Did I won? yes! Am I happy? Yes! were the Organizer Happy? Yes, Were the viewers happy? Yes.............Crime in bonsai committed? Yes. Evil or Very Mad

hehehe'
jun Very Happy

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Poink88 wrote:
JimLewis wrote:
And now I'll let Jun have the last word...

I dunno, Russell . . .

Between Dario and Jun, it's hard to guess who'll have it (or them).
I don't know where this came from but I am posting...
1. To prove you right.
2. To thank you for contributing to the discussion.

I thought moderators are supposed to avoid trouble...not start one. Rolling Eyes


...Take a deep breath Dario...count one to ten...let it be.... Jim is designed that way. Just accept the style as it is...You know why? because I am involve. Suspect History goes a long long way back.


Last edited by jun on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  coh on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:28 pm

I don't think we're anywhere near the last word on this one!

I would like to think that we can produce trees that will attract the "non-bonsai" person without having to resort to "gimmickry". And I have seen people standing in awe in front of an unadorned, leafless but highly ramified trident maple at some of our club shows, so I know it's possible. On the other hand, if hanging Christmas ornaments in trees (or adding kites or whatever) attracts another segment of the population, what is wrong with that?

By the way, Jun, in case it didn't come across right - I do like your tree with the kite!

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:37 pm

Chris,

I agree. IF it gets the job done, then so be it. It really depends on what your personal goal is.

I would use parenting as an analogy. You work with your kid like a bonsai...shape/train them to be the best they could be. If you have to resort to coercion & bribery (it sound bad but I hope you know what I mean) and it works...then mission accomplished.

I like what Joey's (a friend and IBC member) philosophy...he is more in being an ambassador to spread bonsai culture. Educating is primary (and actively too). All the rest is secondary.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:51 pm

coh wrote: On the other hand, if hanging Christmas ornaments in trees (or adding kites or whatever) attracts another segment of the population, what is wrong with that?
answer = absolutely nothing - as long as there are no attempts to carry off badly created bonsai as good, or indeed to omit to tell the admiring but uninformed public that there is more that can be achieved. Those, to me, are the only real "crimes". I think that you can have "gimmicky" trees that are also well-crafted bonsai and I personally don't have a problem with that.


Last edited by fiona on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:54 pm

Talking of gimmicky but well-crafted trees, as regards the boy with kite tree (which incidentally I do like), I'd be prepared to bet that the bonsai-informed members of the public at that exhibition first saw the tree and then the kite, while the general non-bonsai public noticed the boy with the kite first. BUT, having said that, if it then made them think about the way the tree looked (windswept in keeping with the kite) then that would be a win. I'd like to think in many cases that's exactly what happened.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:25 pm

Let me correct some perceptions here...

My work now is being associated with gimmickry....in a bad way. That is absolutely not true, maybe I think differently from most people around here and it manifested in my kite bonsai. I would accept it as such (gimmick) if and only if somebody and I am saying this as a challenge to IBC members who thinks the same thing about my display, please trace most of my works here posted in IBC. If this is the only one done in a different fashion as I am doing my other works posted here, then you can accused it of gimmickry...please trace back several years back.

...If you can prove it as such, I'll send you my biggest slab as a prize if not please stop using the word "gimmick" in a negative way.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  coh on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:56 pm

Jun, I can't speak for others - but, no offense intended from me! The word "gimmick" may have a negative or prejudicial connotation, but one can interpret it a number of ways. For instance, one definition I found: "An ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal." I would say your use of the kite fits very well in this definition, wouldn't you?

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  fiona on Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:46 pm

Precisely the way I was intending it in terms of your tree, Jun, and indeed it is the word I would use for trees such as the artificial one seen at Joy of Bonsai a couple of years ago. Gimmicky to me (as a boring old pedantic English specialist) means anything but tacky or kitsch as some might interpret it. But if the word offends you then I shall happily change it.

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Tony on Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:07 pm

jun wrote:
PS. just want to prove a point, NOT BRAGGING...sorry!

This I can brag about----Tony Tickle likes it too. Wink hehehe

regards,
jun Smile


"The answer my friend is..." BD

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:38 am

tony wrote:
jun wrote:
PS. just want to prove a point, NOT BRAGGING...sorry!

This I can brag about----Tony Tickle likes it too. Wink hehehe

regards,
jun Smile


"The answer my friend is..." BD

Thanks!

BD- Behaviorally Disordered, Bonsaists Dissatisfied, Boldly Done, Best Display........Or Best Dumbass?
hehehe, Either way It would sound good. Wink


regards,
jun Smile




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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:42 am

Chris and Fiona,

Let's just continue with the discussion. It is Yvonne's thread BTW not mine, I am just a contributor on this. Don't worry No offense made, I just wanted to clear things with the other readers of this thread.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Tony on Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:29 pm

jun wrote: BD- Behaviorally Disordered, Bonsaists Dissatisfied, Boldly Done, Best Display........Or Best Dumbass?
hehehe, Either way It would sound good. Wink
regards,
jun Smile

BOB DYLAN tongue

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:14 pm

Hmm, Auntie Yvonne,

the old debate. I guess if one enters a competition with regards to a specific style, and you know the judges to be of a certain mind, you would have to follow the rules set out.

I started out with the basic styles, but soon ended up just working with ideas like volume, visual balance, negative space and health. Eventually I just wondered away from competitions, and stayed with exhibitions.
So if a tree looks balanced, and is healthy, I will admire and enjoy it.

Most of the time for me, it is more enjoyable to keep a tree healthy, and see what works best for that type.
I also tend more to less is more, so suggestion is more important to me.
Poetry over prose.
Stay well.
Khaimraj

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

Post  Guest on Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:18 am

Hi Nephew

Thanks for your thoughts....

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Is old tradition poor taste

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