Brevard Show 09/25/2011

Rob Kempinski wrote:

Russell Coker wrote:Sorry you found the comment offensive, believe it or not I meant it as a compliment. Hopefully you'll get over it.

No problem I'm over it.

The interesting question though is what is the line between topiary and bonsai? Shinju Suzuki's juniper has some very distinct pads yet looks great to me. I just posted your tree to get the take on what is acceptable foliage arrangement vs topiary look. To me having pads arrayed in the silhouette of the tree, each relating to another and pads with flat bottoms makes it a bonsai - round bottom pads don't look right on a bonsai.

The pads of foliage aren't the problem, it's what's inside them. The point I was making is that the needle juniper and the yaupon may have a similar look (masses of foliage), but no masterpiece juniper (or anything else) is a bunch of unrefined twigs making up those pads.

When you see those beautiful satsuki like in Peter's thread on the pot forum (pages 29 and 30), there is a highly developed network of branches inside those pads. They would be just as beautiful and unbelievably fine bonsai without leaves as they are with leaves and flowers. When I was in Kanuma there was a certain satsuki that belonged to an important man that was at every show we had. On the display table it was stunning, but when you looked at it from underneath, it was a complete mess. The big secret joke was that it was a satsuki topiary, not a satsuki bonsai. That's the point I'm making about your yaupon. I know it's not "there" yet, and I'm sure it will be wonderful when it's "finished". Like I said before, you're better than that.

Hi people.

I don't want to get involved in this current discussion.

But may I asked where do you draw the line between topiary in a pot or a bonsai being trained in clip and grow? As this method will turn the tree in a bushy like appearance while undergoing training. I just want to know because half of my stocks are growing in clip and grow after wiring trained the first branch into placed.


regards,
jun

jun wrote:Hi people.

I don't want to get involved in this current discussion.

But may I asked where do you draw the line between topiary in a pot or a bonsai being trained in clip and grow? As this method will turn the tree in a bushy like appearance while undergoing training. I just want to know because half of my stocks are growing in clip and grow after wiring trained the first branch into placed.


regards,
jun

That's exactly what I'm asking. The tropical clip and grow is even more so!

Rob Kempinski wrote:

jun wrote:Hi people.

I don't want to get involved in this current discussion.

But may I asked where do you draw the line between topiary in a pot or a bonsai being trained in clip and grow? As this method will turn the tree in a bushy like appearance while undergoing training. I just want to know because half of my stocks are growing in clip and grow after wiring trained the first branch into placed.


regards,
jun

That's exactly what I'm asking. The tropical clip and grow is even more so!

Russell's tree (windswept above, not sure Russ if it was yours) where similar in form to my tree "blue bell" in the slab with Buddha, though his is more cleaned and looks much well kept. My problem with mine is keeping it neat in shows, because I can't cut most of the sacrificial branch even during a show. otherwise I will be forced to regrow new sacrificial branch and lost a good lot of time and start a new momentum for the tree/branch being thicken.

regards,
jun

Rob Kempinski wrote:

jun wrote:Hi people.

I don't want to get involved in this current discussion.

But may I asked where do you draw the line between topiary in a pot or a bonsai being trained in clip and grow? As this method will turn the tree in a bushy like appearance while undergoing training. I just want to know because half of my stocks are growing in clip and grow after wiring trained the first branch into placed.


regards,
jun

That's exactly what I'm asking. The tropical clip and grow is even more so!

And isn't that exactly what I explained in my last post???

I'm sorry, but a good bonsai is more than a trunk and pads of foliage in the right place. I thought this was pretty much simple "Bonsai 101". Clip and grow, lingnan, whatever you want to call it is legitimate bonsai - no doubt. But Rob, some of those tropicals (ficus especially) with their buzzcut blobs of foliage are really pushing the envelope. For people who don't know good bonsai I'm sure it's fine. But people who DO know good bonsai techniques should not be doing that on trees they expect to be taken seriously. I really figured this was all common sense.

Maybe more simply: a tree should look just as good defoliated as it does in full leaf (even those that are evergreen). At least as an ideal to strive for.

I love that Dwarf Yaupon Rob, thanks so much for showing it's collection and early days! I collect them as well and have found that all those inside crossing branches, whorls, etc add to the bulk of the tips, but that's about it. It can be a pain, but the result of fine detail-wiring all the branchlets opens mine up and seems to let the tree "breathe".

JMcCoy wrote:Maybe more simply: a tree should look just as good defoliated as it does in full leaf (even those that are evergreen). At least as an ideal to strive for.

Thank you!

Just look at those amazing ficus and bougainvillea bonsai in Taiwan, and the rest of SE asia for that matter. Many of those bonsai are defoliated for shows - and the branches are PERFECT. Taper, ramification, everything. Isn't that what we should all strive for? When did simply cutting blobs of foliage into pads become acceptable? What's the difference between that and the poodle cut junipers and eugenias at Lowe's?

And I'm going to bed. I need as much beauty rest as I can get. Hopefully I won't have nightmares about people pruning their bonsai with hedge shears.

Russell Coker wrote:

JMcCoy wrote:Maybe more simply: a tree should look just as good defoliated as it does in full leaf (even those that are evergreen). At least as an ideal to strive for.

Thank you!

Just look at those amazing ficus and bougainvillea bonsai in Taiwan, and the rest of SE asia for that matter. Many of those bonsai are defoliated for shows - and the branches are PERFECT. Taper, ramification, everything. Isn't that what we should all strive for? When did simply cutting blobs of foliage into pads become acceptable? What's the difference between that and the poodle cut junipers and eugenias at Lowe's?

And I'm going to bed. I need as much beauty rest as I can get. Hopefully I won't have nightmares about people pruning their bonsai with hedge shears.

SWEET dream Russell! hahaha

It's noon time here! and I will be de-wiring trees today...and prunning more trees with small hedge shears... I mean bonsai shears. hehehe.

goodnight!

regards,
jun

Reggie and Billy set up some trees.

In the photo with this label above, we are really discussing the presentation of a Brazilian Raintree from my collection. This species can have some very interesting trunks. In the case of this tree the trunk is quite flat. It probably measures about 4 inches one way but less than an inch thick. Reggie and other "Bonsai People" think I should put the thickest part of the trunk to the front, but I like to show the thinnest, to show off this feature. Again this is a pubic "ART" show and not a "BONSAI" show. It might be argued that even in an "ART" show we should present our trees properly? But, I think many of the "rules" were developed based upon Japanese growing techniques and favored species and that when we show species that the Japanese never heard of we can make new rules for those species?

Billy M. Rhodes wrote: But, I think many of the "rules" were developed based upon Japanese growing techniques and favored species and that when we show species that the Japanese never heard of we can make new rules for those species?

Yes, and we do - when it comes to styles. But don't expect to be seeing any flat-top Japanese black pines or baynan style trident maples at Kokufu-ten.

Proper branch development is proper branch development, and that doesn't change just because the plant material is outside the traditional Japanese box. Of course there needs to be an acknowledgement of the quirks and looks of individual species, or else everything would end up looking like the Japanese model of a pine tree shape. Call me picky, or whatever else you can think of, but a nice trunk with good placement of sheared masses of foliage that have no structure or refinement simply isn't enough - tradition Japanese material or not. And that probably just described more than half the ficus out there, especially in Florida. Somewhere along the line, and my guess is that it's from nurseries trying to keep up with tons of fast growing material, it became acceptable to clip foliage into pads with little regard to what's happening inside those pads. It may be quick and easy, but when did any good bonsai come from quick and easy? "New rules" are one thing, laziness is another.

As for Brazilian raintree, I find that extreme fluting and twisting really distracting and awkward. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", so I guess "front is in the eye of the owner". My vote probably would have gone with Reggie and the other "Bonsai People".

P.S. I do apologize for COMPLETELY hijacking your thread. Thanks for the opprotunity to vent.

Rob Kempinski wrote:

will baddeley wrote:May I interject here? I see Russells comments as a compliment rather than offensive . Your Holly could be so much better with a thinning out with either clip and grow or some wiring and placement.. A fantastic trunk you have there but it is a bit scrambled when it comes to the branches.
I have recieved comments via pm's from some members saying that you should only comment on someones tree if you like it. How on earth are we to gain and improve if this is followed through?

I think it is good to comment on trees positive or negative, how else to truly learn, as long as it done respectfully and in the spirit of good fellowship. And I agree that thinning is needed on the holly, but in my opinion it's a bit too early for that. All the secondary branches need to get thicker. For the most part I am happy where the branches are and I did use some wire when the branches were young to place them. Now it needs time to get some girth to the skinny branches and to do that either let them grow long or have a bunch of foliage. In a few years I will probably cut off all the branches down to the secondary or tertiary ramification (maybe fourth depending on how they have grown) and then work on rebuilding the pads.

Hello Rob. Would it not be a better idea to thin and direct the strength and thickening into what you need rather than everywhere? A few seasons un checked growth would speed up the thickening where it's needed.
You also mentioned on another thread that trees should not be shown with guy wire/wires, but it is ok to show a tree without structured branches? Your Yaupon has a beautiful trunk and I look forward to seeing how it turns out.

will baddeley wrote:
Hello Rob. Would it not be a better idea to thin and direct the strength and thickening into what you need rather than everywhere? A few seasons un checked growth would speed up the thickening where it's needed.
You also mentioned on another thread that trees should not be shown with guy wire/wires, but it is ok to show a tree without structured branches? Your Yaupon has a beautiful trunk and I look forward to seeing how it turns out.

Yes, but no guys wire!

Great show you guys!!!!!

Rob....Great tree!!!!! I've talked to some landscape guys locally to let me know when they clear out some of these old bushes but I haven't gotten a call yet.

You should come and do a workshop in Raleigh at our club

Have a great week everyone!!!
Sam

Rob Kempinski wrote:

will baddeley wrote:
Hello Rob. Would it not be a better idea to thin and direct the strength and thickening into what you need rather than everywhere? A few seasons un checked growth would speed up the thickening where it's needed.
You also mentioned on another thread that trees should not be shown with guy wire/wires, but it is ok to show a tree without structured branches? Your Yaupon has a beautiful trunk and I look forward to seeing how it turns out.

Yes, but no guys wire!

I'd take a bonsai with good branch structure and guy wires over one with sloppy branch work and no guy wires any day of the week.

Sam Ogranaja wrote:Great show you guys!!!!!

Rob....Great tree!!!!! I've talked to some landscape guys locally to let me know when they clear out some of these old bushes but I haven't gotten a call yet.

You should come and do a workshop in Raleigh at our club

Have a great week everyone!!!
Sam

Thanks Sam. My sister lives there and I'll bring plenty of guy wires.

Sam Ogranaja wrote:Rob....Great tree!!!!!

Seriously??? That really makes me wonder where bonsai in Americai is headed, and what the "teachers" are teaching. Sad, really.

Russell Coker wrote:

Sam Ogranaja wrote:Rob....Great tree!!!!!

Seriously??? That really makes me wonder where bonsai in Americai is headed, and what the "teachers" are teaching. Sad, really.

Better looking than everything you've posted!!!!!!

I'm with you Russell regarding branch structure (even though I'm oftan seen for only doing topiary bonsai), it's a skill I'm desperatly trying to learn.

Russell Coker wrote:

Sam Ogranaja wrote:Rob....Great tree!!!!!

Seriously??? That really makes me wonder where bonsai in Americai is headed, and what the "teachers" are teaching. Sad, really.

I've been thinking this for a while!!

Seriously guys, why all the lather? I posted a photo of a tree I said is in work, that I brought to a local show for a fun display, at no time did I say it was show ready, but it served its purpose of our small club display, and now we are condemning American bonsai. Take a look at the trees at the US National Exhibition book for an idea of how well developed the bonsai in America are. In 5 years that Ilex may be worthy for that show. Chill out and have fun.

carlos wrote: Better looking than everything you've posted!!!!!!

Carlos, Carlos, Carlos....

Well, what can I say. I try my best, I'm sorry if my attempts don't meet your standards. Maybe you could actually post some of your trees sometime so I can learn.

Russell Coker wrote:

carlos wrote: Better looking than everything you've posted!!!!!!

Carlos, Carlos, Carlos....

Well, what can I say. I try my best, I'm sorry if my attempts don't meet your standards. Maybe you could actually post some of your trees sometime so I can learn.

You have seen some of my Bucida spinosa bonsai at the World Bonsai Convention in Orlando. You know who I am.....

Actually I dont... Sorry.

Since Russell is making blanket statements about how lousy Florida trees and teachers are, which he generalized to all American trees, I would like to perhaps explain what many of us in Florida do to grow bonsai. First of all it is pretty clear to me that everyone has the own way to do bonsai. Not all techniques work equally well in various climates. And not everyone will apply the techniques in the same manner, for example some people work full time and do bonsai as a hobby when they can and their approach to trees might differ than a full time artist or someone with two trees to take care of. To make blanket statements about a whole state and a nation is rude and not very wise.

A very fruitful technique in Florida (and most tropical climates with fast growing trees and long growing season) is to prune to a line and then let the tree grow wild - this induces branch thickening. With trees that bud back well (such as Ficus and this Ilex) the growth can be anywhere on the branches when the tree is in development. Many times wire is not even used on these trees as directional pruning is used. After a half season, or two seasons or when the tree is ready, the branches are typically cut back very hard - I'm talking to basic stubs. Then the process is repeated. Done over a period of time the tree develops the necessary taper and ramification. Basic pruning rule apply such as bifrucated node, up and down branches etc. This process can apply to any climate but it works especially well for tropical trees due to their fast growth, and it's no secret by the way. Certain Chinese penjing schools use this process exclusively.

Clip and grow is much slower in northern climates. I was just in Scotland in August and it was colder there than Florida in the winter so one can expect much slower growth the more temperate the climate gets. Using wire to force branches is a more required technique there. Clip and grow can still work it will just be slower.

Taper is key part of a design, for example on the Ilex that started this discussion the tree has a tendency to make long skinny shoots. The only cure is to let them grow wild and then cut them back hard. Since the bottom branches need to be thicker than the top they need more growth. I was pleased with the overall branch arrangement on the Ilex but not with the branch thickness, hence the wild look. That will change with time but even in our fast climate the fat trunk and already thick branches will take a lot of time.

Rob Kempinski wrote:Since Russell is making blanket statements about how lousy Florida trees and teachers are...

Those are your words, not mine. That was never my intent.

Russell Coker wrote:Actually I dont... Sorry.

Yes you do...selective amnesia....