Questions about nebari

Hey everyone,


I've shared this on some other sites, just trying to gain some opinions. I picked up a Trident Maple today with, what I thought was, decent nebari. However, it is only one sided. So the question I ask is, is it necessary for a tree to have nebari that goes all the way around the tree? Or could a tree have one sided nebari, and that side could be used as the front? Here are some shots of the nebari:

The nebari side:





The other side:




What do you think?

You can air or ground layer and re-build your roots "ideally" you want a 360 degree spread around the trunk. OR ...if not then..

THATS your front!

First, good nebari is important on the backside too, unless you're going to treat the back of your bonsai like the dark side of the moon. Obviously, when you have new material like this, nebari IS one of the considerations when choosing a front but it doesn't begin and end there. This is a young tree with a strong, young root system. I'd work on the design of the tree as a whole, and grow the nebari to work with that. I don't think the "back" is as bad as you think it is. When you repot this winter and really clean out around there you may more that's buried - and better than what's showing on the surface. The big root on the right is interesting, but the one on the left isn't. Maybe that's not the front at all, and maybe it needs to be removed...

My point is that you don't have to let what you've shown us be the deciding factor when working with material like this. And layering is always an option too.

Hi Ryan

Nebari is. as far as I have understood, the thicknes on the trunk, by the roots, it is the lowest part of the taper.

You show us roots... they are not to bad, but can become better.

The trunk looks just like a pole, and it worries me, it looks like the trunk becomes more fat higher up.

Kind regards Yvonne

Thanks Drgonzo! I may thread graft some new roots if people think it is necessary. I personally don't think it is necessary.

Russell Coker wrote:First, good nebari is important on the backside too, unless you're going to treat the back of your bonsai like the dark side of the moon. Obviously, when you have new material like this, nebari IS one of the considerations when choosing a front but it doesn't begin and end there. This is a young tree with a strong, young root system. I'd work on the design of the tree as a whole, and grow the nebari to work with that. I don't think the "back" is as bad as you think it is. When you repot this winter and really clean out around there you may more that's buried - and better than what's showing on the surface. The big root on the right is interesting, but the one on the left isn't. Maybe that's not the front at all, and maybe it needs to be removed...

My point is that you don't have to let what you've shown us be the deciding factor when working with material like this. And layering is always an option too.

Thanks Russell! I'll do more digging around in the back, but if I do find more roots, don't you think they'll be un-useable since they'll be at a different, lower level than the roots that are already present?

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Ryan

Nebari is. as far as I have understood, the thicknes on the trunk, by the roots, it is the lowest part of the taper.

You show us roots... they are not to bad, but can become better.

The trunk looks just like a pole, and it worries me, it looks like the trunk becomes more fat higher up.

Kind regards Yvonne

Thank you Yvonne. The trunk is a pole, but this is just nursery stock I picked up. The tree itself is about 10 feet tall and will be reduced come winter.

Hi Ryan

Are you going to show us the whole tree?.... Or do you have a good plan now?.

kind regards yvonne

Why don't you try this? http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATthreadgraftingroots.htm
Friendly , Manos.

You may find roots under those surface roots. Often you can remove those top roots on one side, level the new nebari and plant the tree at a slight slant and style it from there. If that tree were mine I wouldn't make any concrete decisions until I bare-rooted it in the winter so I could see what's there.

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Ryan

Are you going to show us the whole tree?.... Or do you have a good plan now?.

kind regards yvonne

Sure, but it's not the best picture:


There's a branch a foot up that I'll cut back to in winter:

manosvince wrote:Why don't you try this? http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATthreadgraftingroots.htm
Friendly , Manos.

Thank you Manos, that is actually what I've been reading up on and I am definitely considering it.

Russell Coker wrote:You may find roots under those surface roots. Often you can remove those top roots on one side, level the new nebari and plant the tree at a slight slant and style it from there. If that tree were mine I wouldn't make any concrete decisions until I bare-rooted it in the winter so I could see what's there.

Thank you Russell. Being completely new to Tridents I am not used to working on them or with them at all. I notice you say that you can bare root them in the winter, as opposed to the spring (which I thought was the correct time for maples). I also read that you chop these in the winter. Maybe I'm just not used to deciduous tree work.....

Ryan,
Out of curiosity where did this tree come from? I have been looking for large landscape tridents to plant out in the yard, but they are hard to find.

Why not plant it in the ground and airlayer a few more trees out of it next season before chopping? While doing this you could also build a better nebari.

Todd

DreadyKGB wrote:Ryan,
Out of curiosity where did this tree come from? I have been looking for large landscape tridents to plant out in the yard, but they are hard to find.

Why not plant it in the ground and airlayer a few more trees out of it next season before chopping? While doing this you could also build a better nebari.

Todd

This guy came from a small nursery down the road from me who are having a great sale about right now

I've thought about planting it in the ground, but the only place I really have room for planting is in a lower area of the yard that turns into a swamp whenever it rains, so I think that's a no-go. I might go ahead and build a larger sized grow box and stick this guy in it. Your idea of air layering may be a more wise way to go than chopping....

I am considering removing the root on the left:


Like Russell said it is boring compared to the one on the right, but it also appears to cover another, smaller root that is similar in size to the other roots shown. Of course, I won't do this now.

At this stage of the game thread grafting roots probably isn't necessary. And, yes, that's the root I'd remove especially since there's another under it. That will allow a little tilt to the right too.

Unless this tree was really cheap you may want to consider some air layers. One of the problems with trees grown for the nursery trade is that they have "standards" they SHOULD follow before they are sold to retailers. A ten gallon tree should be a certain heigth and caliper. Those standards don't produce interesting bonsai material, as you've noticed. I think you're in for the long haul on this one. There's no taper so you're going to have to cut it pretty low and start over. At least that way you'll end up with an interesting tree with some movement and taper instead of a straight boring trunk with hit-or-miss branching and a regrown head.

Russell Coker wrote:At this stage of the game thread grafting roots probably isn't necessary. And, yes, that's the root I'd remove especially since there's another under it. That will allow a little tilt to the right too.

Unless this tree was really cheap you may want to consider some air layers. One of the problems with trees grown for the nursery trade is that they have "standards" they SHOULD follow before they are sold to retailers. A ten gallon tree should be a certain heigth and caliper. Those standards don't produce interesting bonsai material, as you've noticed. I think you're in for the long haul on this one. There's no taper so you're going to have to cut it pretty low and start over. At least that way you'll end up with an interesting tree with some movement and taper instead of a straight boring trunk with hit-or-miss branching and a regrown head.

Thank you Russell. I might just go ahead and do some air layers. What I really want to do first is just air layer the height off of it, then work toward the branches, etc. I realize the lack of taper, and I had really just bought it for the surface roots which I thought were decent. I'm always amazed at the small sized Tridents I see, so I think I'll stick with keeping this one small.

i wouldnt worry about cutting it back to a branch 12" up. I would cut it back to about 4 or 5 inches you will have plenty of new shoots to choose from. Read Peter Adams bonsai maple book its amazing. As far as the root on the left, if you keep it cut back hard and let the thinner ones grow out more, they will all be in harmony within a year. Plant it on a tile and use a compostable twine to pull roots into a radial fashion when doing it. I would surely threadgraft roots in the back. Some tridents dont airlayer very well and some do very easy even if the same technique is used, its hard to predict which ones will. Tom Scott from chatanooga TN has traveled the county teaching trident techniques and has been field growing them for 45 years. He recommends doing major cuts in summer after the leaves have hardened off. They as a result will extremely callous quickly and have much less dieback, but this is for tridents only, not japanese maples.