Thinking on this Celtis.

lennard Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:46 pm

I bought this one as a landscape nursery grown tree three years ago. I chopped it and this is how it progressed:

The tree October 2012:

The tree now in winter:

From the top:

The tree is about 30cm high.

I should work on a few things with this tree - what are you're feelings?

(This species reacts very good to most horticultural and bonsai practices - no hurry from my side.)

Lennard

**JimLewis** Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:06 pm

I'd like to see a few branches that come out at least a little bit to the front. Your trunk is bare all the way up to the top tangle of branches. I know you're supposed to "see" the trunk from the front, but tantalizing glimpses of bareness often works better than bare ass naked.

The branches seem pretty tangled up. You need to wire and direct them where you want them to go. It's a hateful job, but . . . .

I've got a couple of young Celtis -- none of them this far along. I think they can make wonderful bonsai. I still remember Guy Guidry's . . .

Khaimraj Seepersad Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:50 pm

Lennard,

[1] Are you planning to thicken the lower branches, to a proportion closer to the trunk?

[2] Surface roots ?

Celtis type ?

I like it.
Thanks for showing.
Khaimraj

Jake16 Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:15 am

I like where this tree is headed. I think that you should grow/ thicken the bottom branches because all of your branches look the same diameter.

lennard Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:53 pm

JimLewis wrote:I'd like to see a few branches that come out at least a little bit to the front. Your trunk is bare all the way up to the top tangle of branches. I know you're supposed to "see" the trunk from the front, but tantalizing glimpses of bareness often works better than bare ass naked.

The branches seem pretty tangled up. You need to wire and direct them where you want them to go. It's a hateful job, but . . . .

I've got a couple of young Celtis -- none of them this far along. I think they can make wonderful bonsai. I still remember Guy Guidry's . . .

A agree with some branching coming to the front. With the lower branches fattening up and with the pad building some of the secondary and tertiary branches will cut the trunkline making it not so bare.

I've got about a week before this species bud out so I will have to wire very soon. My plan is also to keep the top branches heavily pinched because I don't need them to fatten up any more.

Celtis make wonderful bonsai in my climate - with the correct techniques you can have a presentable bonsai from seed in 5 years time.

Thanks for the reply.

Lennard

lennard Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:01 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Lennard,

[1] Are you planning to thicken the lower branches, to a proportion closer to the trunk?

[2] Surface roots ?

Celtis type ?

I like it.
Thanks for showing.
Khaimraj

I am seriously thinking of letting lower shoots on the nebari grow out to emphasize the "old" looking current nebari. This, also with fattening up the lower branches, will also add to the taper a bit. There are some "horse eyes" on the trunk - they do fit the nebari but not the rest of the smooth trunk. Should I find a way to let the rest of the trunk look older? Maybe patience is the answer here?

With the current nebari some very characterful surface roots will add to the picture. Will have a look to see what is going on there.

This is probably a hybrid between Celtis africana and Celtis sinesis - very difficult to tell nowadays.

Thanks for the reply.

Lennard

lennard Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:03 pm

Jake16 wrote:I like where this tree is headed. I think that you should grow/ thicken the bottom branches because all of your branches look the same diameter.

Agreed. This growing season I will work on it.

Thanks for the reply.

Lennard

GerhardGerber Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:30 am

This is probably a hybrid between Celtis africana and Celtis sinesis - very difficult to tell nowadays.

Hi Lennard

Firstly, nice tree, gives me hope because mine is 2.5 years behind yours! Very Happy

I read elsewhere about the hybridization at it worries me.

I fell in love with these trees after my parents planted one a few years ago. That is however when the problem started - I couldn't find any for sale at nurseries with the same leaves.
I want to air-layer the one at my parents, but there are some logistical issues with that.....about 900km.

Also, the little mining town I live in has a 40 year history of people planting funny trees all over, and there are several Celtis, not one with the same leaf shape & colour - one even appears to have a weeping growth habbit!

Do you know of any way to definitively identify the Africana?

Cheers
Gerhard

lennard Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:06 pm

To me it is about the yellow fruits in autumn, the hairy leaves with three very distinct veins, the leaves are bigger than those of the other species. When it comes to bonsai the growing season is longer than the other species, the leaves reduce better and twiggy growth is very....twiggy.

More info on the species:

http://www.plantzafrica.com/plantcd/celtisafrican.htm

Lennard

Dario Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:59 am

Hi Lennard, if you have not read this previously, you find it interesting...http://bonsailo.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/japoncia-king-of-deciduous-bonsai-in.html
Cheers, Dario.

Andre Beaurain Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:34 pm

GerhardGerber wrote:
This is probably a hybrid between Celtis africana and Celtis sinesis - very difficult to tell nowadays.

I read elsewhere about the hybridization at it worries me.

.........one even appears to have a weeping growth habbit!

Do you know of any way to definitively identify the Africana?

Gerhard

Howzit Lennard and hey Gerhard

Cool hey...its almost Weekend. Although the Nursery is still open tomorrow,......I talk more than sell anything hihihihihi

Lennard your tree is awesome, I hope you have more Stinkwoods in training, they are so rewarding and as you said quick.

Celtis africana is indeed confusing. The true africana will have the smallest leave between the two, africana and chinensis. Chinensis is broader and serrated the entire margin. True africana will definately be hairy and only serrated half way up the leave margin. As you said the Celtis africana will have tree distinct leave veins, but even this can be confused with Trema orientalis (the Pigeon wood).

And Gerhard that tree you saw with the weeping habit....that is Trema orientalis, very very often confused with Celtis and I have seen Trema in very well know Nurseries sold as Celtis. I once screamed at locals who was busy cutting down an Celtis in their yard ( its is illegal to touch a Celtis in South africa), only with relieve and shame to realize afterwards that it was actually an Pigeon wood. They didn't even know,.... of course they didn't, they knew very little about life in general.... affraid

Geez enough already...

Love and light

GerhardGerber Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:51 pm

Hi Andre, Lennard

Thanks for the info.

My parents' tree causes the confusion, the leaves are hairy, thick, healthy and much rounder in shape than most........and the fruits are close enough to yellow
The tree is extremely healthy and happy where it stands, and it's grown to over 4m in what feels like 5 years, but more likely 7 or 8.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Pigeon Wood, I'll read up and try to nail down the ID shortly - spring is around the corner. Very Happy

What confuses me is another tree in town, my first instinct was Celtis A, but the leaves are almost a military type of green, and the they don't taper as sharply as normal, more ovoid in shape.
This could easily just be a slight variation, but of course the collector in me wants one of each........I have appointments to do air layers all over town end of August! Laughing

Wouldn't it be great if our bonsai self-pruned like a Stinkhout.......???. bounce

Have a great weekend gents Cool

Gerhard

lennard Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:29 pm

Andre Beaurain wrote:Celtis africana is indeed confusing.

Most of my Celtis trees comes from two trees here where I live. Seedlings are everywhere of these two trees.

Here is an example of the mothertree's leaf as well as one of her offspring(R.I.P.) as bonsai:

I have others with different kind of leaves and growth habits, but when it comes to twiggy growth and leaf reduction this one I am showing is the king! This species/variety can be defoliated up to three/four times a growing season without any negative affects.

I have harvested a lot of the mother tree's seeds - interested to see if they all will have the same traits.

Thanks for all the replies - appreciate it.

Will post a few more soon.

Lennard

Andre Beaurain Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:42 am

....yip, that is Celtis chinensis, roughly serrated the entire margin.....

Love and light

Todd Ellis Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:35 pm

Dario's link to the Celtis blog is very informative! I cut and pasted it here again for readers...

http://bonsailo.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/japoncia-king-of-deciduous-bonsai-in.html

lennard Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:29 pm

Andre Beaurain wrote:....yip, that is Celtis chinensis, roughly serrated the entire margin.....

Love and light

Now I am very confused!

The Celtis sinensis I know is also known here as the pavement Celtis - smaller, "harder", shinier, not hairy leaves and fruit mostly, not so yellow - sometimes even reddish to black!

The one I have posted is this one:

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus2/factsheet.cfm?ID=760

and

http://www.platbos.co.za/indigenous_white_stinkwood.html

The mother tree I refer to also have hairy leaves and yellow fruit when ripe.

Here is also some confusing pictures of Celtis sinensis:

http://www.weeds.org.au/cgi-bin/weedident.cgi?tpl=plant.tpl&ibra=all&card=T21

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Celtis_sinensis3.jpg

and a variety:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Celtis_sinensis_var._japonica.jpg

With all the hybrids going around I think it going to be difficult in future to identify Celtis species correctly......maybe we should call them ...
"Just Celtis"?

Lennard

GerhardGerber Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:43 am

Hi

Confusion rules.....

Lennard, to my eye the trees in the last 3 links are obviously something else, and the first one (virginia tech) is exactly like the trees at my parents' house.

Mine still has 2 leaves on, will post some pics of those later.

GerhardGerber Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:56 pm

Hi Lennard, Andre

Sorry for the bad photo, we have the worst wind blowing so I couldn't get focus. This is the best pic of the last 2 leaves on the tree:

And the bark:

I'm actually glad this tree is even alive, I bought it at a "nursery" in Oranjemund is a sorry state, simply had to re-pot and had an epic planting medium fail of my own.

Re-potting and chopping this years........hoping it's really an africana...... Wink

Cheers
Gerhard

Andre Beaurain Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:10 pm

lennard wrote:
Andre Beaurain wrote:....yip, that is Celtis chinensis, roughly serrated the entire margin.....

Love and light

Now I am very confused!

The Celtis sinensis I know is also known here as the pavement Celtis - smaller, "harder", shinier, not hairy leaves and fruit mostly, not so yellow - sometimes even reddish to black!

The one I have posted is this one:

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus2/factsheet.cfm?ID=760 This one looks like africana because one can see that the serration doesn't carry all the way around the leave, its very broad though. The picture of the leave of your celtis carries al the way around the leave, your leave is also very dark and glossy.

and

http://www.platbos.co.za/indigenous_white_stinkwood.html . This leave is also africana.......The Platbos Forest is very very unique as it was seperated form other forests long time ago, there as some endemic trees over there!

The mother tree I refer to also have hairy leaves and yellow fruit when ripe. hairy-- africana

Here is also some confusing pictures of Celtis sinensis:

http://www.weeds.org.au/cgi-bin/weedident.cgi?tpl=plant.tpl&ibra=all&card=T21 This is very confusing, that is Not sinensis, me thinks. Definately a hybrit.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Celtis_sinensis3.jpg Confusing, the colour is right and little serration....?

and a variety:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Celtis_sinensis_var._japonica.jpg Now this has more africana that the top one

With all the hybrids going around I think it going to be difficult in future to identify Celtis species correctly......maybe we should call them ...
"Just Celtis"? Amen ....Or just White Stinkwood

Thanks Lennard

Lennard

Khaimraj Seepersad Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:28 pm

Leaves from my tree.
Later.
Khaimraj

Andre Beaurain Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:05 am

O dear Lord.....that is neither africana nor sinensis, it must be another Celtis which I'm not familiar with!

Cant help you K - h - aimraj... but will never forget the H again my friend!

Gerhard, we need a closer shot of your leave, is it hairy? So far it looks like pure africana.

Love and light

Khaimraj Seepersad Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:39 am

Andre,

that is what was sold to me by an English seed company as an Africana Laughing

I wonder what it really is - Australis ?

Oh well, I tried to share.
Later.
Khaimraj

GerhardGerber Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:43 pm

Hi All

Thanks to daylight savings time and local weather conditions I should be able to get a better photo end of August.....
Shocked

.......because I just can't get myself to pick the only 2 leaves at the very tippy toppy of the tree...... Very Happy

But I dare say the topmost of my 2 leaves would look the twin of yours Khaimraj, maybe yours is just slightly smaller?

Andre Beaurain Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:09 pm

GerhardGerber wrote:Hi All

Thanks to daylight savings time and local weather conditions I should be able to get a better photo end of August.....
.......because I just can't get myself to pick the only 2 leaves at the very tippy toppy of the tree......

But I dare say the topmost of my 2 leaves would look the twin of yours Khaimraj, maybe yours is just slightly smaller?

#

No, I dont think so, you serration on the leave is much, much smaller, look at Khaimraj's it is very rough and strangely pointy?! ( lordy, is there such a word)

Khaimraj I personally think yours is definately an hybrid. Celtis cross so readily with anything, like a whore let loose in a YMCA. cheers

Love and light

Khaimraj Seepersad Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:19 pm

No sweat guys,

it's good to know that at least it is a celtis. By the way the leaves average 3.5 to 4 cm. I am starting over on the branchlets with my little tree, and it won't be dense for maybe two years.
Plus, I have a few holes to seal up.

May I also say this is an excellent family for Bonsai.
Later.
Khaimraj

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