Reality versus Convention - any opinions

Folks,

here is my question - I am working on Zanthoxylum fagara, which according to on-line information and personal observation, never really gets a large trunk. In fact it is listed as less than 10" [ 25 cm ] of trunk when mature with a height of 23' [ 692 cm ?] let's say 1 to 28 as a ratio.
Thus a 1" trunk = 28" of height.

So my few drain collected specimens at 8" in height / 1" trunk is already beyond the 1" to 6" or 1" to 5" guideline.
Any opinions?
Khaimraj

* I am also meeting this situation with Oxy's and will see the same with Murraya p.

Do you have a picture?

Todd,

the plants I am growing don't have the mature spines of an older shrub.

Images - http://plants.usda.gov/java/largeImage?imageID=zacl_009_avp.tif

this is the only specimen I could find standing by itself and it is a cousin, but looks like the fagara.
The trunk shows the thorns / spines.

More information on the Z.fagara - http://www.nababutterfly.com/zanthoxylum.html
Size and spread are noted.

What do you think? Small tree and small trunk ------> very slim bonsai ?
Khaimraj

Hello Khaimraj. Why do you think that trees conform to statistics? There are many examples of trees out living their statistical age, girth and height. I have collected many Yews for instance, but from Low lying areas. 10 to 30 years old with a base of a few inches to over a foot in diameter and 8 to 25feet tall. A friend of mine has a Yew that was collected in Spain that has a base of 25 inches in diameter, but is only 3 feet high. The tree is also 800 years old. What do you mean by a drain?

Will,

when I was learning about Bonsai design, the guideline for giving a tree like appearance was 1" to 5" and 1" to 6", trunk thickness to height of the tree.

Also recently, I read a bit that led me to believe that the size of the trunk is related to the density of branch and branchlets, as might be seen on a well trained zelkova.
Perhaps the design guide is also a biological feature. A given size of trunk must be reached in order to get a given % of density.

Additionally, when I clip and grow, I gain my density of branchlets through order, as opposed to hedge clipping the top and gaining density through disorder, as is often seen on exported Chinese efforts [ elms, sagretia, ligustrum for example.]
This is another way, how I test for use as a Bonsai.

I was trained to first copy well and in doing so comes the understanding to be able to innovate / create.
I repeat this technique with every new species, I test.

With mature shrubs that have slim trunks, I paused to wonder, how to get the idea of age across to the viewer.

A drain, as in unpaved canals. In the country side to remove surface water from the asphalted roads, backhoes just dig out the clay soils for water to run. The left open surface soon grows back grasses and then trees. The roadworkers clean the grasses and chop down the trees. Good collecting zones.
Hope all of the above helps to lend understanding to what I am asking.
Khaimraj