Follow on to - Kevin's discussion of reality

I wanted to say, back in the early 2000's when I was but a pup on the Internet, I had an interesting discussion with a Psychiatrist / Psychologyist [ spelliing ? to lazy to open the Dictionary -apologies ]

What she told me was, in observing the Internet -

[1] The average person in a forum, is hungry for information, will seldom read from a book, preferring to pick someone's brain, as it is faster and often it comes with back-up experience.

[2] A good many will only read and not contribute, nor have any guilt over doing so either.

[3] Where in reality one can filter out these types, by not speaking to them, the forum disallows this.

[4] One can even do research and then as is done today, Blog such information as one's own, since no one can actually ask you for proof, especially since a Blog can disallow this as negative comments go.

[5] Essentially [ as was observed on the Fine Art Forums ] the one's who have true experience and knowledge [ actually studied the subject as for example training at a Atelier/Studio / Academy in Fine Art ] will leave.

This may lead to eating up each other, as the experience / knowledge dries up.
Arguments may become more frequent, as will negative comments.
BUT as another friend told me in school ------ you cannot miss what you never had/knew.

This is why, I still read, and experiment / research on my own, sharing with others I have met who have a similar way of thinking.

Kevin, what you may also have missed is how many look at unknown areas [ China for example ] copy the work and then exhibit it as bold and new ideas.
AND does anyone care ?

The Internet is a cold hard place, and getting worse.
What Am I doing on it .................. shopping at Amazon for what I need, Ebay lost the grandma's attic quality years ago, so supplies for Art take over.
Laters
Khaimraj

* Then there is the Hidden Agenda, in Bonsai it is whoever can shout the loudest for sales, teaching sales and more sales.
Whatever happened to the Hobby --------- done for relaxtion and peace of mind ????????
It went the way of --- paying for all those pots and must have show off trees!!!!!!!!!

In similar conversation, with a psych professional, but not about the internet, she maintained that research shows relational learning to be superior to classic book learning. When we have conversation, feedback, clarification, varied experience, the learning becomes richer and is internalized to a greater extent. I think that while impersonal in some ways, internet forums have this as an advantage.

khai... as david said in an earlier thread:

BOOM

david... i dont want to quote you 2x in one post, but you leave me no choice:

BOOM

both posts being boom boom points !

heh

Makes sense since you can learn something from books, but you can only learn how to actually do something with experience, lot of experience to piggy back off of in forums. Good and bad.

What's wrong with the Bonsai Industrial Complex? Its just like EVERYTHING else if $ is the end goal!
Bull S. Get it? An s trunk with Tbar horns!

I will quote Denzel from Training Day ......

BOOM. Or more appropriately. ........BOON! Lol. Not Boon from Remember the Titans! Enough Denzel. Loler.

Sorce

David and Kevin,

that concept works on - provided you have something to bring to the table - in other words you must have something to work from.
A blank slate is just that, a blank slate.

So when for example someone asks - how to airlayer - and makes no effort to first read up and and at least try.
Why not run to a forum and pick brains, that's what they are there for after all?

To learn you also have to learn how to experiment, so obviously you get a few test, expendables and work on them.
Not some S curve you got at Xmart or for Christmas, and want to turn it into a show piece in under x months.

This why on this island we suggest you buy 5 "finished" bonsai and show off that instead whilst learning.

So I agree with conversation, and sharing, but with some commonsense, not just picking brains.

Sorce,

if I am reading you correctly on $.
The idea is it is a hobby, why does it cost so much, I want back something all these pots and tools, as is seen in the Moulding Grannies of Ceramics, all that investment and no $ back.
Plus all those pots and tools are modern, not even - vintage - why the cost - are they not being made every day?

Heh, heh, books cost, plants cost, pots cost, tools cost, I can save by picking brains, get free know how, save, save, save.
Laters.
Khai........

Not some S curve you got at Xmart or for Christmas, and want to turn it into a show piece in under x months.

I take offense to this example...!!! and here is why .

If I am gifted an S Curve Juniper or similar Bonsai plant probably 3 to 6 years old and it is fairly Presentable in looks... then what is wrong with maybe Re-potting, adding a rock, some Moss and then thoroughly enjoying the Gifted Bonsai with my friends and family and bragging it up ????

Seems to me that is most likely the average intro into the World of Bonsai Gardening anyway.

Join a Bonsai Club, attend Bonsai Shows, Exhibitions, Training Sessions, Etc...

and you will discover that there is a definite Pecking Order in the World of Bonsai.

In my 40+ years of Bonsai/Landscape Gardening I have found this Pecking Order to be alive and well and it is essentially a good thing....

I know several Master Bonsai Gardeners and hundreds of the inbetween types and all have always been very informative, and helpful regards our Bonsai Gardening Art.

This Bonsai Art form has room for and encourages all levels of the experience, it brings the Artist out of each of us and for some of us only in the appreciative form.
My 2c worth...

Chas

Cas,

thank you for responding, and apologies for not being more clear. My response on S curves etc.dealt with coming to the forum and asking for miracles.
I have no problems with what you do in your home or with friends.
Later.
Khaimraj

If I am gifted an S Curve Juniper or similar Bonsai plant probably 3 to 6 years old and it is fairly Presentable in looks... then what is wrong with maybe Re-potting, adding a rock, some Moss and then thoroughly enjoying the Gifted Bonsai with my friends and family and bragging it up ?

Nothing -- unless you are still bragging it up 5 years later and haven't taken steps to improve it.

Bolero wrote:[u]

If I am gifted an S Curve Juniper or similar Bonsai plant probably 3 to 6 years old and it is fairly Presentable in looks... then what is wrong with maybe Re-potting, adding a rock, some Moss and then thoroughly enjoying the Gifted  Bonsai with my friends and family and bragging it up ????

This Bonsai Art form has room for and encourages all levels of the experience, it brings the Artist out of each of us and for some of us only in the appreciative form.
My 2c worth...

The above are the contradictory pieces.

If I put someone else's painting into a new frame, do I get credit for the painting?
Unless you are bragging about the ownership of the tree, but then, you've only a turd with a polished container, because you can't polish a turd.

The experience level can not be static. That's the problem. You can read about it in every forum. Directly, or as disguised in this quote. What of five years later?

The average intro to bonsai is completely wrong, and that we accept buying a cutting in a pot and displaying it inside till it dies, whilst boasting of great artistry is, well, it could be art but it is not bonsai art. To me it is an insult to the Culture. Every art is brought to us via a Culture. Without respect for the Culture, the art dissipates to the point it becomes an industry.

Now the industry has filled the $15-30 range with this crap, so a good prebonsai is $150.
Loophole....they don't notice I can buy a nursery juniper for half of $15 and REALLY BECOME AN ARTIST!

Khai, you guys save a lot of money on that island! I learn a lot! I'm all about spending less!

I think we (in the 50) are moving toward a market with a better understanding of quality, this should bring prices down for decent materials.

I think we (as forums) should tell people with industry crap, to return it, and with a receipt of return, ship em a real pre-bonsai!

Anyway.

Sorce

Sorce.

my display stands are - 1" [ 2.5 cm diameter ] reformer steel tubing and BRC [ 3" square metal mesh for building ] coated in red iron oxide paint - 30 something years old, still going strong. Insects don't like to walk on them.

Tried concrete tops on a balcony like Mr.Wu Yee Sun of Hong Kong [ Big Hero of mine ] got stomped by ant's bearing aphids, all over my Fukien teas. Big lesson learnt.
Never had an insect problem before.

We also learned to duplicate the Yi Xing wares, handbuilt or slab pressed into a plaster of paris mould. Can also design our own pots, stone at 980 deg.C in local hand dug and hand processed clay.

Should we drop forge the concave pruner now ?

Yes, we have mahogany, purple heart, black heart and a host of native hardwods, but I am not into tables or decorative stands too distracting, see my efforts - the trees, not the tables.

Yeah I am cheap and bragging,

BUT I also know the world standards and can meet them, just because we live on a little tropical island, we don't have to be primitive or as they say down here ------ do we own ting [ thing ]

I think that is what the many miss, you must know the rules by instinct, before you allow your natural personality to mess with them. Individuality is what Fine Art is about, but please study first.
My teachers in Florence, were a Yale graduate and the other came with Cum Laude [ is that Signa Cum Laude, I am not to familiar with the American Latin terms of praise.Apologies ]
NOT folk who threw paint at a canvas.
Long pleasurable hours spent drawing from the Figure 3 hrs a day for 5 days, 3 years, and just as long working from the Imagination.

I treat Bonsai with the same respect ----- to open the mind, allow the Imagination to flow/grow, Discipline and Design, nuturing the Character -- the way of the Chinese Literati.
Laters.
Khaimraj - also know as - Guan Win Low

Oh Sorce,

that S stuff, and the other weird shapes, are trees removed from the training stage.

Imagine the S shape in the ground for another 5 to 10 years, see how the shape changes with the cambium growth.
The Chinese do cull their acres of trees, and sell to the outside world.

The better trees don't like very fine Jade leave China /Hong Kong or Taiwan.
Until.
Khaimraj

I will build my stands of steel when the day comes!
I've been thinking about it since I first read Anthony's writing of them.
One can not argue the fact that insects don't like it!

I have access to a lot of scrap too, The hard part will be finding enough free mesh.
I may just use half inch square bar. Couple monkey poles, even the canopy if I need shade.

Sorce

hey sorce... maybe you have a place like this down by you:

http://www.speedymetals.com/

when i was doing some plasma cutting and welding art, that is where i got alot of my stock...
any size, any quantity... cheap.

Thanks Kevin!

Sorce