Live from Noelanders 2011

That show has very nice quality trees. America has some catching up to do, although I hear with Ryan we will be on our way.

shimsuki wrote:That show has very nice quality trees. America has some catching up to do, although I hear with Ryan we will be on our way.

I sat with Ryan at the Gala Dinner on Saturday night and had a long discussion about the American/European levels of Bonsai. Ryan's take was very simple. America was a leader in Bonsai outside of Japan years ago, he has a mission to make it so again... however the US is a large place and it had a long way to go and he could not do it alone.

'America' is way larger than Europe and we (Europeans) consider each of our countries as having its own Bonsai identity... and that America is one country with its own Bonsai Identity, but this is not the case. Ryan bemoaned the fact that the East Coast does not 'Talk' to the West Coast... I joked that it was a 9 hour flight and it was like me saying that Spanish Bonsai is like Swedish, it 'ain't necessarily so.

Thank you so much to everyone on IBC posting photographs and excellent videos about the event! From what I see, Noelanders trophy is about great trees and great friendship. Now this is true greatness. Congrats!

-dorothy

tony wrote:

shimsuki wrote:That show has very nice quality trees. America has some catching up to do, although I hear with Ryan we will be on our way.

I sat with Ryan at the Gala Dinner on Saturday night and had a long discussion about the American/European levels of Bonsai. Ryan's take was very simple. America was a leader in Bonsai outside of Japan years ago, he has a mission to make it so again... however the US is a large place and it had a long way to go and he could not do it alone.

'America' is way larger than Europe and we (Europeans) consider each of our countries as having its own Bonsai identity... and that America is one country with its own Bonsai Identity, but this is not the case. Ryan bemoaned the fact that the East Coast does not 'Talk' to the West Coast... I joked that it was a 9 hour flight and it was like me saying that Spanish Bonsai is like Swedish, it 'ain't necessarily so.

America is made up of so many climates it is hard to generalize it when talking about bonsai. The west coast certainly is, and probably will always be a leader in American bonsai. I hear in Portland, it is the perfect climate for bonsai, which explains why people like Ryan, Michael Hagedorn, and several others locate there. I hear it also has great places to collect trees! Hopefully after I graduate college I will move there too!

In my opinion, the best bonsai have the best trunks, which is achieved by collecting or fieldgrowing, or even advanced container growing. One reason I feel America lacks is because USDA has shut down importing of several trees, and another reason I feel America lacks is because we put sticks in 'finished bonsai' pots and call them bonsai, when really we need to plant them into the ground or growboxes. Collecting trees in the US seems to be picking up though, which should get good material into the market.

I guess I will steer this back onto the topic of the post and say congratulations to all those who participated in the Noelanders show, and the material being shown looked truly remarkable!

Andrew

shimsuki wrote:

tony wrote:

shimsuki wrote:That show has very nice quality trees. America has some catching up to do, although I hear with Ryan we will be on our way.

I sat with Ryan at the Gala Dinner on Saturday night and had a long discussion about the American/European levels of Bonsai. Ryan's take was very simple. America was a leader in Bonsai outside of Japan years ago, he has a mission to make it so again... however the US is a large place and it had a long way to go and he could not do it alone.

'America' is way larger than Europe and we (Europeans) consider each of our countries as having its own Bonsai identity... and that America is one country with its own Bonsai Identity, but this is not the case. Ryan bemoaned the fact that the East Coast does not 'Talk' to the West Coast... I joked that it was a 9 hour flight and it was like me saying that Spanish Bonsai is like Swedish, it 'ain't necessarily so.

America is made up of so many climates it is hard to generalize it when talking about bonsai. The west coast certainly is, and probably will always be a leader in American bonsai. I hear in Portland, it is the perfect climate for bonsai, which explains why people like Ryan, Michael Hagedorn, and several others locate there. I hear it also has great places to collect trees! Hopefully after I graduate college I will move there too!

In my opinion, the best bonsai have the best trunks, which is achieved by collecting or fieldgrowing, or even advanced container growing. One reason I feel America lacks is because USDA has shut down importing of several trees, and another reason I feel America lacks is because we put sticks in 'finished bonsai' pots and call them bonsai, when really we need to plant them into the ground or growboxes. Collecting trees in the US seems to be picking up though, which should get good material into the market.

I guess I will steer this back onto the topic of the post and say congratulations to all those who participated in the Noelanders show, and the material being shown looked truly remarkable!

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I don't want to get into American bonsai vs European bonsai discussion again. We've been down that road several times. But have you seen the level of trees at the US National Bonsai exhibition? Primarily east coast trees but had enough from the west coast to be representative. They stand with any trees across the world.


As for east coast and west coast talking, people on the coasts talk with each other. Myself and many other bonsaiasts have been to west coat shows and events and vice versa. Artists from the west travel regularly to the east to teach (Lindsay Shiba, Ben Oki, John Thompson, Mike Hagedon (Oregon), Boon, Lance Laney (Hawaii), the late Mas Imazumi, Roy Nagatoshi, to name a few) And artists from the east travel west (Suthin, Bill Vanlvanis, Mary Madison, Guy Guidry, Gary Marchal, even I made a trip to Seattle to teach). Forums are loaded with Americans from all over talking. Products get traded and trees sold. Ryan is a great guy - I was with him in Japan when he first approached Mr Kimura to be an apprentice, but he's been in Japan for 5 years too. There is lots of tallking and showing of trees with the US and within Canada and to some extent in Mexico.

And there are lots of great American bonsai too.

Sebastijan Sandev wrote:

shimsuki wrote:Thanks for keeping us updated!

Be sure to take lots of pictures, especially of Ryan's demo!




Andrew

I have video of whole Ryan's demo...it was really interesting and Ryan is a great guy. No, exquisite!

Looking forward to Ryan's demo video. Been checking each day. Don't want to be impatient but just wanted to let you know I am looking forward to when you get it up
Have really enjoyed all the other videos you have put up Thanks

Ryan was very upbeat about the artists and the future of Bonsai in the US however he put some of the demise down to folk simply being too polite in their critique of each others trees.

Ask a European "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "Its OK... but if you did this... or this... or start again... the tree would be amazing"

Ask a American "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "that's nice"

In Europe EVERYONE has an opinion and are not afraid to voice it... it is VERY rare to stand in front of a tree and everyone proclaim it to be 'Perfect' ... even the 2011 Noelanders winner! (which BTW I thought Perfect)

sorry that I still didn't publish video of Ryan's demo, that takes a lot of time to edit because, the whole raw video is 1h45min and that is just too much to upload on the internet. At least 1/3 of that time is Belgian translation which I have to extract, piece by piece. Then, the video will become more exceptable size of maybe 60min or so. So, I am trying my best to catch some time and finish that, but, you know...work...kids... Sorry once again

tony wrote:Ryan was very upbeat about the artists and the future of Bonsai in the US however he put some of the demise down to folk simply being too polite in their critique of each others trees.

Ask a European "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "Its OK... but if you did this... or this... or start again... the tree would be amazing"

Ask a American "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "that's nice"

In Europe EVERYONE has an opinion and are not afraid to voice it... it is VERY rare to stand in front of a tree and everyone proclaim it to be 'Perfect' ... even the 2011 Noelanders winner! (which BTW I thought Perfect)

I believe it is very hard to generalize several thousand people. There are many people that critique trees in the USA. In fact pretty much everyone does it, but they may be polite about it. Critique sessions are a part of every convention so again having been to many places I don't see much difference among the top artists.

tony wrote:Ryan was very upbeat about the artists and the future of Bonsai in the US however he put some of the demise down to folk simply being too polite in their critique of each others trees.

Ask a European "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "Its OK... but if you did this... or this... or start again... the tree would be amazing"

Ask a American "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "that's nice"

In Europe EVERYONE has an opinion and are not afraid to voice it... it is VERY rare to stand in front of a tree and everyone proclaim it to be 'Perfect' ... even the 2011 Noelanders winner! (which BTW I thought Perfect)

I believe the majority of bonsai hobbiest in the U.S. fall into the "nice" trap. Bonsai for this group will have difficulty improving because of our sensitivity of hurting each others feelings. We need to get over this otherwise we will not be pushed to improve.

Great show, thanks for all the pictures, one day I hope to make it to Mark´s event.

reddog wrote:I believe the majority of bonsai hobbiest in the U.S. fall into the "nice" trap. Bonsai for this group will have difficulty improving because of our sensitivity of hurting each others feelings. We need to get over this otherwise we will not be pushed to improve.

Reddog... precisely sometimes honestly helps one improve!

Note: Fiona keeps me in check

Point out anything you see as a fault on a tree in Australia and you are a pessimist.
This show has some brilliant trees

reddog wrote:

tony wrote:Ryan was very upbeat about the artists and the future of Bonsai in the US however he put some of the demise down to folk simply being too polite in their critique of each others trees.

Ask a European "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "Its OK... but if you did this... or this... or start again... the tree would be amazing"

Ask a American "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "that's nice"

In Europe EVERYONE has an opinion and are not afraid to voice it... it is VERY rare to stand in front of a tree and everyone proclaim it to be 'Perfect' ... even the 2011 Noelanders winner! (which BTW I thought Perfect)

I believe the majority of bonsai hobbiest in the U.S. fall into the "nice" trap. Bonsai for this group will have difficulty improving because of our sensitivity of hurting each others feelings. We need to get over this otherwise we will not be pushed to improve.

Reddog, I don't know if we have been to the same major shows, but at the big shows I've been to in the USA, critiques of trees happen all the time. If you are referring to small club show where part time hobbyists show sticks in pots perhaps there is an inkling of truth in what you say. Part time hobbyists rarely aim to have top notch trees. They mostly do bonsai for fun/relaxation - which is ok. But at major shows there are usually all kinds of critiques given by knowledgeable viewers. Try tagging along with Nick Lenz some time and see if there is any critique given of a tree. Come to a BCI convention or the National Exhibition and feel free to critique any tree there. To say there are no critiques of trees in the USA is flat wrong.

Too many sweeping generalisations here. Unhealthy and pointless. Does one continent have to be better? The US has good artists...Europe has good artists........Europe has good material......The US has good material. There are some artists better than me....there are some that are not. My trees make me happy and I'm happy with my trees. It's no biggie

Rob Kempinski wrote:

reddog wrote:

tony wrote:Ryan was very upbeat about the artists and the future of Bonsai in the US however he put some of the demise down to folk simply being too polite in their critique of each others trees.

Ask a European "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "Its OK... but if you did this... or this... or start again... the tree would be amazing"

Ask a American "what do you think of my tree?" and the reply would normally be "that's nice"

In Europe EVERYONE has an opinion and are not afraid to voice it... it is VERY rare to stand in front of a tree and everyone proclaim it to be 'Perfect' ... even the 2011 Noelanders winner! (which BTW I thought Perfect)

I believe the majority of bonsai hobbiest in the U.S. fall into the "nice" trap. Bonsai for this group will have difficulty improving because of our sensitivity of hurting each others feelings. We need to get over this otherwise we will not be pushed to improve.

Reddog, I don't know if we have been to the same major shows, but at the big shows I've been to in the USA, critiques of trees happen all the time. If you are referring to small club show where part time hobbyists show sticks in pots perhaps there is an inkling of truth in what you say. Part time hobbyists rarely aim to have top notch trees. They mostly do bonsai for fun/relaxation - which is ok. But at major shows there are usually all kinds of critiques given by knowledgeable viewers. Try tagging along with Nick Lenz some time and see if there is any critique given of a tree. Come to a BCI convention or the National Exhibition and feel free to critique any tree there. To say there are no critiques of trees in the USA is flat wrong.

bonsai golfer, Where did I say there are no critiques of trees in the USA? Did someone hurt your feelings in a critique when you were younger? Constructive criticism whether it be a national or local show is important to the growth of bonsai in the US.

will baddeley wrote:.................... Does one continent have to be better? The US has good artists...Europe has good artists........Europe has good material......The US has good material. There are some artists better than me....there are some that are not. My trees make me happy and I'm happy with my trees. It's no biggie.................

Applause... :-)

Regards
Morten

Morten, Will

This post is NOT about whether one country/artist is better than another... its HOW bonsai moves forward and develops.

Just as with this forum, if all members feedback consisted of 'Nice Tree' I doubt whether this site would retain its readership. Bring on Controversy, speak up if you have something to say. I exhibit/post my trees for comment NOT praise. (leave it Fiona!!)

In order to develop the level bonsai there needs to be more high level shows (call juried in the art world, such as the Noelanders, or the former Gingko or the US National Exhibition.) Artists participating and having their trees selected will do lots to promote greater development.

But this is not all required. One requirement is a thriving market with a multilevel development of quality material in all phases like exists in Taiwan and Japan and to some degree in China (i.e bonsai farmers, bonsai developers, and final refinement artists). Europe benefits in that many countries in Europe can participate in the Asian markets. It is much more difficult in the US due to strict import laws but not impossible. A country like Australia which has extremely strict import laws has to rely on home grown material and this makes it tougher in that they don't yet have a fully developed multilevel market. This multilevel market is starting in the US but has a way to go.

Availability of good instruction is important which is not a problem in the US and in Europe but is in some other areas of the world.

Having strong and active bonsai organizations is also important. It's one of the reasons I'm involved in BCI - Bonsai Clubs International. It's the oldest international bonsai society in the world and has tried over its nearly 50 years to promote better bonsai by sharing information globally,, by having shows and by taking a multinational approach that recognizes the merit of bonsai artists all over the world. Lately BCI has started to modernize its operations to better promote bonsai in today's global environment and if you are not a member I would please ask that you please consider joining. We could use members that are active in this forum for you obviously care about bonsai. Go to http://bonsai-bci.com.

tony wrote:Morten, Will

This post is NOT about whether one country/artist is better than another... its HOW bonsai moves forward and develops.

Just as with this forum, if all members feedback consisted of 'Nice Tree' I doubt whether this site would retain its readership. Bring on Controversy, speak up if you have something to say. I exhibit/post my trees for comment NOT praise. (leave it Fiona!!)

Tony

I speak up. Enough evidence present here I am afraid.
But what I do like about Wills input, is that it should not be competition between countries, or between people telling who is the best. That was how I was reading that part. Friendly competition yes, but it really makes no difference who are the best.

It is a learning experience for all of us to take part in the exchanging of views. Some like it and some do not.
For some the competition and winning at shows is the main point, for others it is about being part of it an measure your own work, learning how to improve i.e.
Competitions sometimes proves not the best in people, but that's the prize of doing it this way.

I think bonsai have improved a lot over the later years. Thanks to discussions and wanting to exchanging views, participating in events like Noelanders i.e. I do not see a problem, but we all have different ways of obtaining material and knowledge.
Every time I take part in a great event I go back an try harder, because I see a higher level all the time.

Best regards
Morten

Tomy. It was starting to sound a bit US v EU. I agree with Rob that top quality shows are probably the biggest influence on raising the bar. Seeing quality trees first hand generally inspire those who want to progress. The Ginkgo award was a good example of this and now the Noelanders Trophy has taken its place. I imagine the logistics of such a vast country like the US, make this extremely difficult.

Ryan Neil's Demo - Noelander's Trophy 2011.
just a few words
I've had a very difficult time with this video...the material was big...over one hour 45 minutes of raw video on HDD. That was just too much to upload on the you tube so I had to make it shorter somehow. But how? Everything Ryan was saying was too good to be cut and excluded. But, there was lot of Belgian translation that was possible to extract from the video. So I started a excruciating job of deleting almost every few sentences...a few sentences on Belgian. That took almost 5 hours. And because I am not a professional, you will notice where deleted parts were in and where remained parts were glued together. I am sorry but thats the best I can. And picture quality was pretty much reduced due to severe compression you tube have made on this video. But, I believe that this video is a very precious to see or to hear... Ryan Neil is such a great person and fantastic bonsaist, he have said so many profound and wise things about bonsai...Japan...life...The Way. His story is just too worthy to skip it over.
Thank you Ryan Neil for carrying forward your unbelivable experience.
So here is the video ...I did my best: http://sandevbonsai.blogspot.com/2011/01/video-ryan-neil-demo-noelanders-trophy.html

Sebastijan Sandev wrote:Ryan Neil's Demo - Noelander's Trophy 2011.
just a few words
I've had a very difficult time with this video...the material was big...over one hour 45 minutes of raw video on HDD. That was just too much to upload on the you tube so I had to make it shorter somehow. But how? Everything Ryan was saying was too good to be cut and excluded. But, there was lot of Belgian translation that was possible to extract from the video. So I started a excruciating job of deleting almost every few sentences...a few sentences on Belgian. That took almost 5 hours. And because I am not a professional, you will notice where deleted parts were in and where remained parts were glued together. I am sorry but thats the best I can. And picture quality was pretty much reduced due to severe compression you tube have made on this video. But, I believe that this video is a very precious to see or to hear... Ryan Neil is such a great person and fantastic bonsaist, he have said so many profound and wise things about bonsai...Japan...life...The Way. His story is just too worthy to skip it over.
Thank you Ryan Neil for carrying forward your unbelivable experience.
So here is the video ...I did my best: http://sandevbonsai.blogspot.com/2011/01/video-ryan-neil-demo-noelanders-trophy.html

Just finished watching the video. Sebastijan, you made my day! Thank you very much for making the video accessible here, you did a great job. Ryan is a very generous person by sharing his profound knowledge and his detailed experience in Japan with the audience. On the one hand I agree, that watching Ryan work gives you a mirror image of how Kimura approaches a tree including the thought process developing a plan for the future tree. On the other hand I see a very enthusiatic and capable young artist who will jump over his Kimura shadow, for the lack of a better word. He will define his own style and his own audience. The best of all to me is, that he is genuinly sharing his most inner emotions about the art. So much more worth than any genious teacher not being able to bring over the message.
Two things Ryan said: "Show off the tree, not the work." and "Everytime we touch a tree, it has to get better." This sounds global to me. Not European, not Japanese, not American. Just very global..

Again, thank you very much for the video, Sebastijan ( and thanks Walter, for the entertaining part - in the video.. )

-dorothy

Dorothy,
There's no better way to say what I think about Ryan then what you've just said in the upper post. Ryan Neil deeply impressed me, as a man, bonsaist, teacher...he impressed me with his courage to pursue the path he intended to walk on..
Just fantastic. So many great thoughts, mature ideas...
I am glad you liked the video, could have been better but...I am just a video amateur

I had the pleaseure of going to one of Ryan Neil's demos in rochester NY last september and didnt know what an honor it really was. I found this video on Youtube of Ryan in his second year of his apprenticeship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq8eb2XK9Jw

Neil