giving credit to "artists"

"Quote......The IBC is a list of mostly hobbyists and the only ones remembered wil be Professionals.
So become a Professional if you want History to even look at you".
I think that most of us don't strive to be professionals but rather.... we enjoy the hobby and some of us are craftsman not artists is the purists sense.
G

I am sure that many of you have been to most of the larger UK and European shows and seen trees of the very finest quality exhibited by a UK collector.
In no way at all does he attempt to claim any praise for the styling of the tree, in fact quite the opposite.
I have been stood talking to him when someone has come up to congratulate him and shake his hand, they were swiftly pointed in the direction of the artist who styled it, who duly took the plaudits.
I have had the privilege of being invited to see this collection a few times, its like a mini Ginkgo or Noelanders.

Lets all be grateful that these masterpiece trees are not squirrelled away just for the collector's eyes, but are shown on a regular basis for us all to appreciate and enjoy.

We should celebrate being able to see them in the flesh rather than over analyse and nit-pick through minutia.

Thinktreedanielsan wrote:I am sure that many of you have been to most of the larger UK and European shows and seen trees of the very finest quality exhibited by a UK collector.
In no way at all does he attempt to claim any praise for the styling of the tree, in fact quite the opposite.
I have been stood talking to him when someone has come up to congratulate him and shake his hand, they were swiftly pointed in the direction of the artist who styled it, who duly took the plaudits.
I have had the privilege of being invited to see this collection a few times, its like a mini Ginkgo or Noelanders.

Lets all be grateful that these masterpiece trees are not squirrelled away just for the collector's eyes, but are shown on a regular basis for us all to appreciate and enjoy.

We should celebrate being able to see them in the flesh rather than over analyse and nit-pick through minutia.

Thank you Gavin. My thoughts precisely. Yes, there are egos in bonsai. But I don't think collectors are part of that, at lest not in my experience. And since I suspect Gavin and I are talking about the same person, may I add to the equation the very fact that neither of us is putting a name to this UK collector - not out of fear that his trees will be nicked, but because we both respect the enormous humility he displays despite having probably (I myself believe that should be definitely) the best collection of trees in the UK. I rather think this very modest man would quite possibly be dismayed by the thought that collectors are seeking gratification for their egos seems to feature. Exhibitions are enhanced by the presence of even one of his trees and I for one would be highly disappointed if several did not feature at the major UK exhibitions.

I'm actually now beginning to wonder if it is only those people who are the most in search of making a name for themselves who are bleating about some other people having "unfair advantages" whether it be because they buy trees to exhibit or because they have access to better yamadori. It's akin to me bleating that I don't win cycle races because this person has (i.e. has bought) a much better bike than I have, or that person has a support team - coaches, physiotherapists etc - at their disposal who can help. Absolutely nothing, of course, to do with the fact that I hinder my own progress through eating too much chocolate and having a fat and un-areodynamic arse as a result, or because I don't practise my skills enough to become even so much as a contender.

And if we really do see not crediting the original artist of a bonsai (despite possibly not even knowing who this is) as the greatest crime against humanity, then maybe the best thing to do is stop writing about it on a forum and go and directly challenge the event organisers.

"Quote......The IBC is a list of mostly hobbyists and the only ones remembered wil be Professionals.
So become a Professional if you want History to even look at you".

That sounds like rank insecurity speaking, to me . . . AND it is total nonsense.

99.99999% of us have no interest in "History" (whoever he/she is) even glancing at us, and the pages of the IBC are rife with trees and bonsai displays by amateurs (AKA sneered-at hobbyists???) that are equally as good, if not better than, some of the trees show by alleged pros.

If you are in this business or hobby for the glory of it, you're in it for the wrong reason.

[quote="JimLewis"]

If you are in this business or hobby for the glory of it, you're in it for the wrong reason.

It's akin to me bleating that I don't win cycle races because this
person has (i.e. has bought) a much better bike than I have,

Back when I was discovering it was a hard life, trying to make money with a camera I always heard people say they could take just as good a picture as me if they only had a better camera. I challenged them a couple of times by letting them use my camera while I used a box camera. I usually won.

A poor craftsman blames his tools.

Maybe we need to stop whining and just do bonsai. It's more fun.

JimLewis wrote: Maybe we need to stop whining and just do bonsai. It's more fun.

As Stavros just "said":

jun wrote: ... .... or that half man half lady alexander who failed to invade your homeland because he was afraid of some elephants...I have a higher self esteem than those two...
... ...

Excuse me!!!
Is this really what you have been taught about "that alexander", Jun? (You see I would NEVER write even your name with a small letter....)
I am not in a position to bring in question your self esteem but I do believe that you just damnify your own self with this quotation of yours....
And before anyone makes a reminder about being off the title of the thread I will first remind some of the forum rules.

fiona wrote:

Thinktreedanielsan wrote:I am sure that many of you have been to most of the larger UK and European shows and seen trees of the very finest quality exhibited by a UK collector.
In no way at all does he attempt to claim any praise for the styling of the tree, in fact quite the opposite.
I have been stood talking to him when someone has come up to congratulate him and shake his hand, they were swiftly pointed in the direction of the artist who styled it, who duly took the plaudits.
I have had the privilege of being invited to see this collection a few times, its like a mini Ginkgo or Noelanders.

Lets all be grateful that these masterpiece trees are not squirrelled away just for the collector's eyes, but are shown on a regular basis for us all to appreciate and enjoy.

We should celebrate being able to see them in the flesh rather than over analyse and nit-pick through minutia.

Thank you Gavin. My thoughts precisely. Yes, there are egos in bonsai. But I don't think collectors are part of that, at lest not in my experience. And since I suspect Gavin and I are talking about the same person, may I add to the equation the very fact that neither of us is putting a name to this UK collector - not out of fear that his trees will be nicked, but because we both respect the enormous humility he displays despite having probably (I myself believe that should be definitely) the best collection of trees in the UK. I rather think this very modest man would quite possibly be dismayed by the thought that collectors are seeking gratification for their egos seems to feature. Exhibitions are enhanced by the presence of even one of his trees and I for one would be highly disappointed if several did not feature at the major UK exhibitions.

I'm actually now beginning to wonder if it is only those people who are the most in search of making a name for themselves who are bleating about some other people having "unfair advantages" whether it be because they buy trees to exhibit or because they have access to better yamadori. It's akin to me bleating that I don't win cycle races because this person has (i.e. has bought) a much better bike than I have, or that person has a support team - coaches, physiotherapists etc - at their disposal who can help. Absolutely nothing, of course, to do with the fact that I hinder my own progress through eating too much chocolate and having a fat and un-areodynamic arse as a result, or because I don't practise my skills enough to become even so much as a contender.

And if we really do see not crediting the original artist of a bonsai (despite possibly not even knowing who this is) as the greatest crime against humanity, then maybe the best thing to do is stop writing about it on a forum and go and directly challenge the event organisers.

STOP WRITING ON THE FORUM????


wow! and ouch! that one really hurts!

my nellie wrote:

jun wrote: ... .... or that half man half lady alexander who failed to invade your homeland because he was afraid of some elephants...I have a higher self esteem than those two...
... ...

Excuse me!!!
Is this really what you have been taught about "that alexander", Jun? (You see I would NEVER write even your name with a small letter....)
I am not in a position to bring in question your self esteem but I do believe that you just damnify your own self with this quotation of yours....
And before anyone makes a reminder about being off the title of the thread I will first remind some of the forum rules.

Yes Alexandara. I am sorry to say.That's how Alexander the great were portrayed in some history books. Check out Discovery channel short film on Alexander the great, There he was portrayed as such based on his own records, He has some "man lovers" as part of his entourage, including his adventures and misadventures including the massacre of thousands of civilians because their nation doesn't want to be under his control, in some regions of the Arab world by his army. It was shown I think april last year...and then blame me later.

regards,
jun

...and it really is the elephants enlisted by the Indian army that basically stopped Alexander army from marching further to the East...only a portion of India were conquered, up to the city of Lahore only then they were stopped, by the now United tribes/ Kingdom of the Indian kings.
History in Europe said their army got tired and weary and "returned" back to the west, History in Asia said they were defeated and retreat back via the river of Jhelum and Indus.

Lets talk bonsai instead. Please.

Morten

JUN Versus THE REST!!!!!!

I have been reading this thread for sometime now and I guess it is taking an uncomfortable turn. Also the fact that I repotted about 18 of my trees on Saturday left me with no physical or mental energies to pen a second reply to this rather interesting thread over the weekend.

Firstly I have spent time thinking why was this thread started in the first place. Then I knew my good friend Jun had stated in another thread about his experiences in not joining clubs in his country. I am sure those were very valid reasons. Then again it is possible that "RICH GUYS" with deep pockets are trying (falsely) to pass of as Bonsai Masters simply because they have purchasing power. This is possible but IMHO a rare occurence, though I have seen the same in our club.

I guess what Jun is taking offense to (and rightly so) is such Rich Guys pretending to be something they are not and consequently looking down on the other whose trees are of a lesser quality. This is perfectly fine to criticize such people.

On the other hand(like many on this thread have pointed out), buying and selling bonsai is part of life all over the world. When a buyer acquires a good Bonsai for starters it is not a crime. Secondly when such a Bonsai is exhibited, it is the exhibition rules that need to be examined if they have provision for mentioning the name of the artist along with the name of the owner. Also if the number of artists who have worked on a particular tree are more then would all of them need to be acknowledged? Most Bonsai are owned by the artists and hence some exhibition guidelines do not provide for mentioning the name of the artist. Here the crime (if it can be so called) is that of the exhibition organisers and not that of the owner.

If the Bonsai is of exceptional quality then the artist (atleast in most cases) is also well known. In such cases the owner (for his own glory) would voluntarily disclose the name of the artist like in the case of a painting say a Monet, or a Van Gough or a Rembrant. Even if the artist's name is not displayed, most renowned artists have their particular style which can easily be recognised.

It is also worthwhile (and I am surprised that it has not already been mentioned in this rather long thread) mentioning the story of two great Bonsai Names from Japan. Masahiko Kimura (whom everyone knows) and Daizo Iwazaki (whom some of us know). While Kimura San is renowned for his mastery of Bonsai, most would be surprised to know that Daizo Iwazaki is Japan's largest (I hope I am correct here) Bonsai collector. Though I would like to meet Kimura San one day or atleast see him in flesh and blood, I have had the honour of meeting Iwazaki San. Despite his age and his Very Very impressive Bonsai Collection, Iwazaki San is a very humble person and I having seen him in person can testify that. What is also a lesser known fact (and this might surprise quiet a few) is that more than 400 of Iwazaki's trees are with Kimura for professional care and tending. Guess exhibition times are the only times when the trees leave Kimura's gardens.

Let me conclude by saying that Bonsai is an art to be enjoyed. It is also a profession and this has helped further this art form. But for such Rich Guy collectors, the professional side of bonsai would be non existent. However falsely claiming to have a created a tree when that is not the case is certainly wrong.

I am into bonsai for the love of it and it has no commercial value for me. I'd love to learn more and thanks to fora like IBC I have learnt a lot and have met a whole lot of nice like minded people.

Lets get back to Bonsai and not focus on Alexander or his personal life.

Ravi

If you are in this art form/hobby for the glory you had better start getting used to disappointment as in the main it will be a big part of your life.

‘Cheque Book Bonsai’ is fine by me for there is no apparent ‘honour’ in ‘winning’ a show with a tree purchased two weeks before... but it does bring great bonsai to exhibitions and THATS why I go to exhibitions... and LONG may we have those who choose to collect/display fine bonsai... even if lots of money has changed hands.

I have found that those seeking recognition/praise in their chosen Hobby/Sport/Pass-time are usually devoid of it in there day to day life, either in their Job, relationships or family. Thereby placing a disproportionate level of importance and passion to what one would consider 'normal'.

If you want to be ‘loved’ by your peers then ‘Create’ beautiful bonsai... for many on IBC we are happy doing just that.

Editors Note: WAY to many ‘Quotation marks’ in this post

Jun wrote:
"I too buy a bonsai in it's first or second stage of development and I tried to give credit to the previous artist/s who did the first stage of the design, and my personal demarcation line on this is that, as long as the tree is still in its original form based on the previous artist/s design...I cannot consider the tree to be my mine.

Your opinion would be appreciated."

Just a humble thought or two;
When we can distinguish between ownership and own-expression, i can feel with you.
Though, why one buys a certain tree, is not the purchase already an expression?
I mean a appreciation of the tree, or the recognition of potential to be further explored
(what maybe the previous owner is not capable of)?
If ownership starts by just slightly changed branch patches and watering Or when you redesigned a tree, is it a real question?
Or can we go for a never ending collaboration, giving a tree in a certain stage further to the next?
What is owning what?
Is the goal owning us, or do we own the goal?

regards, Sunip;)

Jun,

If by some chance you see this... When you left your mail was cleared out of my mailbox before I was able to get your email address and respond to you!!!!!!!! Mine is cokerra@bellsouth.net . If ANYONE has Jun's email address, please pm me.

Thanks,

Russell

Sorry. I'm locking this thread. It has taken a nasty turn, and the person who took that turn seems to have run away.

Jim Lewis