giving credit to "artists"

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Jun,

here is the fly in the oinment bit again.

Firstly, Artists have to go to school to get the title - Artist - it is a profession like Engineer, Lawyer, Doctor and so. It just fell through that legal hole, but before 1800, there were laws to prevent anyone from just setting up shop as an Artist.[ see 1500's English laws.]

Secondly, one may have artistic tendencies, but that does not make one an artist. As it is often said to some folk -------- you have a bit of the artist in you.

It used to be that Penjing was called Garden Craft, which is how I use it.

Frankly I see nothing wrong with something being a craft.

Thirdly, as Bonsai / Penjing goes, who cares who owned it and who wins the prizes. As long as it is healthy and remains thus.

This leads me to ask, why did x get into Bonsai or Penjing, for Notoriety, Business or some, at times hidden agenda?
Or did they get into it as part of the practice of the scholar's table or a hobby or just a way to kill free time ?
Until.
Khaimraj bzzzzzzzzzzz

* If you need some form of recognition or accomplishment or achievement to smooth the passage of time as you age. The idea being that you can look back on your life with the confidence of having done something of importance to you or the world. Take up the more traditional forms of Art or Charitable situations -- e.g. Painting, Stone /Wood/Metal Sculpture, Writing, Poetry or become a Mother Teresa.

Artist definition by Wikidedia...

1. A person who creates art
2. A person who creates art as an occupation
3. A person who is skilled at some activity


This one is from Oxford, I find these the most interesting...
A learned person or Master of arts (now rather obsolete)

A follower of a pursuit in which skills comes by study or practice- OPPOSITE OF A THEORIST

non was said about going to college ...

regards,
jun

Jun,

try it from this point. Rich dude purchases tree, it is his tree, punto finale - final point.

He then hires a yard man / gardener to tend his garden.

As the gardener you swallow your pride and do your job, or get another job.

If however you freeze dried the tree or sold an image of the tree, you could probably add the name of the artist to the the tree / image.

If it bothers you enough, then either don't sell trees, or get a legal agreement that the tree must be exhibited with you as the creator.
Khaimraj

Reply to your Oxford part - read the historical part I stated and about the legal hole.
Other than that we move on to other topics.

Jun,

when you sell a painting to someone, it is theirs to do with as they wish. They can mash it, re-paint it, burn it, as they wish. It may sadden you or the world, but it is a commodity, a luxury item, but still just a thing for sale.

Wasn't there a Japanese man who wanted to be buried with his - was it a Van Gogh ?

We must be practical.
Khaimraj

A small note or two. Often the phrase "master" is used about someone who has some popularity in the bonsai community. Or has promoted themselves effectively. (Talking about the European bonsai scene).
The term "master" is taken from the Japanese and there no one is mentioned as a master unless they have deserved it ´over a decade.´ People like Kimura or late Kato may deserve this title or honour, but in my beliefs no one in Europe (where I live) are masters. Maybe someone in some years will show worthy of this "title", but for now it is putting much too much focus on people rather than on the bonsai.
Much too much ego is developed and nursed, instead of being enthusiastic about the bonsai.
Of course the bonsai displayed is the most important thing, or rather the display is the most important thing. The feeling and expression of the display is what counts.

Of course we have this curiosity and wants to know who created it - but when labelling it at the display as suggested with a name tag of the creator, you push the interest from the display/bonsai towards the creator instantly. No need for that. Just enjoy the bonsai and be happy whoever trained it. Or?

Secondly. If there were no prizes given at a bonsai exhibition, how many people would attend and show their bonsai?
Are we in it for the fame or for the bonsai?


Best regards
Morten

Morten that is one f the best posts I've read in many months. Thank you.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Jun,

try it from this point. Rich dude purchases tree, it is his tree, punto finale - final point.

He then hires a yard man / gardener to tend his garden.

As the gardener you swallow your pride and do your job, or get another job.

If however you freeze dried the tree or sold an image of the tree, you could probably add the name of the artist to the the tree / image.

If it bothers you enough, then either don't sell trees, or get a legal agreement that the tree must be exhibited with you as the creator.
Khaimraj

Reply to your Oxford part - read the historical part I stated and about the legal hole.
Other than that we move on to other topics.

Rich people needs manners too. mostly do.


then only a very few of us can be called bonsai artists, because its only places like japan and taiwan that we can a get diploma or certificate as bonsai artist...I can't afford it, Jun is doomed to be a gardener forever.
and some Europeans and westerners are not bonsai "artists" too? I can only speak for my self though.

...I got several gardeners too but I don't disrespect them as such and give due credits to them when some visitors and clients visit my lawn and appreciate my gardens.

History of art- "From Paleolithic Age to Contemporary Art"...very informative...cave man are artists also without diploma. I believe they have it on the net too.

regards,
jun

...Just visited the site of 'National Bonsai and Penjing Museum" virtual tour...
why is it that the full history of trees displayed there were pricisely cataloged including the exact year of the trees starting point as bonsai, one example is the japanese white pine started training since 1626, and so many more. and oh! The names of likes Masura Yamaki was stated too.
can we tell to the curator of the museum to disregard the name of artists and origin of the trees? because what matters only is the tree and not the other background of the trees including their artists and the previous owner of the trees, or they perceived it to be important too (just like some of us) and keeping records of the trees origin might be helpful in the future.
...or people now a days do not think anymore like the people of the past who give importance to the trees history and its maker,,,and perceived that those who think otherwise (naming and keeping tracks of trees and artists) are only thinking for the glory associated with his works. 400 years or more from now the tree we have today will still be around but the history of the tree won't make it up to a hundred year, because some people are afraid that naming the trees as not their own creation will hurt their big egos and tarnish their reputation somehow.

Its very much ok to own trees done by others but please keep tracks of the trees history, one way of doing it is to respect the previous artists, and acknowledging their works. Who knows your tree might end up in the National Arboretum someday, and in the process you'll be helping the future visitors identifying the trees rich history even if you are not around anymore.

regards,
jun

Its very much ok to own trees done by others but please keep tracks of the trees history, one way of doing it is to respect the previous artists, and acknowledging their works. Who knows your tree might end up in the National Arboretum someday, and in the process you'll be helping the future visitors identifying the trees rich history even if you are not around anymore.

regards,
jun Smile

That´s another story, and yes it is nice and even interesting to read the story of an old tree shifting hands several times having a long history. No doubt. And a museum may have other intentions of exhibiting the bonsai like they do.
But I think the focus of this thread was more on how you act when exhibiting trees on a exhibition like we do in our associations. And how we act when buying and owning old trees already "finished." Keeping track of history shows respect of others, and is interesting for some to read (not the least the new owner).
But on exhibitions like we normally attend, I think the tree/the display is the absolute most important what so ever. It doesn't make the bonsai display better or worse who ever started and recently nursed/styled this bonsai, painted the scroll i.e. What´s seen and the feeling of the display and bonsai is what counts. What you see is what you get. Sometimes there is much more focus on the owner than the bonsai. That is what I think should be less important. Less ego, more bonsai.

Regards
Morten

And thanks Kev. Appreciate much.

morten albek wrote:

Its very much ok to own trees done by others but please keep tracks of the trees history, one way of doing it is to respect the previous artists, and acknowledging their works. Who knows your tree might end up in the National Arboretum someday, and in the process you'll be helping the future visitors identifying the trees rich history even if you are not around anymore.

regards,
jun Smile

That´s another story, and yes it is nice and even interesting to read the story of an old tree shifting hands several times having a long history. No doubt. And a museum may have other intentions of exhibiting the bonsai like they do.
But I think the focus of this thread was more on how you act when exhibiting trees on a exhibition like we do in our associations. And how we act when buying and owning old trees already "finished." Keeping track of history shows respect of others, and is interesting for some to read (not the least the new owner).
But on exhibitions like we normally attend, I think the tree/the display is the absolute most important what so ever. It doesn't make the bonsai display better or worse who ever started and recently nursed/styled this bonsai, painted the scroll i.e. What´s seen and the feeling of the display and bonsai is what counts. What you see is what you get. Sometimes there is much more focus on the owner than the bonsai. That is what I think should be less important. Less ego, more bonsai.

Regards
Morten

And thanks Kev. Appreciate much.

I am sorry, but I think That's not just another story... more suitable is just another DOUBLE STANDARD.
If the trees were japanese by origin say it so, and don't claim it to be an american or what ever nationality bought the tree, that is if you can't identify or trace the creator of the tree.
No matter who's name appears on the ID tag, if the tree is truly magnificent the name won't matter. but to claim somebody's work as yours, that is a blatant lie.

I too agree with you on the issue of naming "masters"...It's one of the most annoying title I can imagine of...if we are into Karate it is acceptable, in bonsai it is as if they are the masters and somebody got to be the slave.

regards,
jun

I am sorry, but I think That's not just another story... more suitable is just another DOUBLE STANDARD.
If the trees were japanese by origin say it so, and don't claim it to be an american or what ever nationality bought the tree, that is if you can't identify or trace the creator of the tree.
No matter who's name appears on the ID tag, if the tree is truly magnificent the name won't matter. but to claim somebody's work as yours, that is a blatant lie.

I too agree with you on the issue of naming "masters"...It's one of the most annoying title I can imagine of...if we are into Karate it is acceptable, in bonsai it is as if they are the masters and somebody got to be the slave. monkey

regards,
jun Smile

Why this hard tone? No one I know of lies or claims others works are their own. Because you have the money to buy valuable bonsai, does not mean you are cheating exhibiting or presenting these artworks.
So lets keep the thread in a polite manner.

Bonsai are sold every day, leaving one country and appearing in another.
I will receive a small pre-bonsai within the next months. Most likely its origin is Japanese? It is delivered from someone in Belgium to a Danish bonsai store, and then it arrives at my place as a gift/payment for some work I did for the shop.
I have no clue who originally trained this tree from the ground. I just know it is like a raw stock I in other cases might find in a garden and then train onwards my self. Only difference is, that this piece is trained deliberately for bonsai by someone and is the only way to find that kind of material here.
It is raw material/pre-bonsai that has a lot of work to it before it becomes a bonsai. I will train it, and someday someone else will take over when I leave this planet. I do not consider it of any importance to me if the next caretaker do register it was my tree for some years. She/he will eventually make it his/her own bonsai, changing more or less the tree when it grows and need new styling over time. My work will slowly fade out and new marks on the tree and its style will be presented at that time. What is important for me, is the joy of doing this as long as I am present. I think Yvonne said something like this earlier on this subject, and I do agree. This tree will be mine for a period, and then it will be another persons bonsai for another period.

Best regards
Morten Albek

A Master goes back many many generations in the uk and refers to someone in a skilled profession that takes on apprentices. A Master Thatcher, builder, baker etc, and does not mean mastery. Apprentice, Journeyman then Master.

I am reminded of a very well known poem by a greek poet, Konstantinos Kavafis. His poem "Ithaka" is talking about Odysseas (Homer's famous king of Ithaka, who took par in the Troy war, and built the trojan horse) and his trip back to Ithaka which took him 20 years.

The most important thing as the poet says, is the journey itself, the experiences that come along, and not the final destination.

The creation and styling of bonsai in our hands is the journey. If a bonsai is exhibited, it seems like its final destination and not the journey. A tree exhibited for e few days on a nice stand, in a prestigeous event, cannot replace all the joy that comes with creating the bonsai.

A rich "dude" who buys a ready made high quality bonsai, exhibits it and receives an award, can never feel the joy of creating it and seeing it growing; he missed the whole magic, the journey.

If I ever had to choose between recognition/awards and the "journey" of creating a bonsai, I would choose the journey in a blink of an eye.

Awards and recognition can only feed our human ego but do nothing for the soul.

will baddeley wrote:A Master goes back many many generations in the uk and refers to someone in a skilled profession that takes on apprentices. A Master Thatcher, builder, baker etc, and does not mean mastery. Apprentice, Journeyman then Master.

Hi Will. this really is an honest question without any tone of sarcasm.
How can a person specially in bonsai be called a bonsai master? by having apprentice under him? by allowing people to address him as such? or by simply doing good in bonsai?
How long and what should be the measure for somebody to be called a bonsai master?
It is really confusing for me, and i don't want to start a new thread on this one too.

regards,
jun



Morten,
Didn't mean to sound rude, probably just in the selection of my words...
but to tell the truth, I find lot of bonsai being exhibited and claimed by other people to be of their own works after just cutting a few inches of twigs on the tree. This is what I really find as a blatant lie.

regards,
jun

stavros wrote: A rich "dude" who buys a ready made high quality bonsai, exhibits it and receives an award, can never feel the joy of creating it and seeing it growing; he missed the whole magic, the journey...

But he (or SHE) can "feel the joy" of knowing that it is being seen by an admiring public when it is displayed in a proper exhibition.

Morten is absolutely right: we are too fixated on naming - especially here in the west, and like him I would have to say that I have only on one occasion met a so-called master who was getting precious about a former tree of theirs, and was soon shouted down on the issue. The majority do not and, as I said previously, are quite accepting of the fact that their creation now belongs to someone else who may or may not restyle it. I would also have to say that the majority of the exhiitions I have attended in the UK and in Europe, use the word "owner" on the exhibit label and not "artist". That is not a lie. If someone then in conversation claims to have created a tree when you know they have not, that is a different matter.

About the little tree I told about in this tread.

I know the name of the garden in Japan, I know it was the owner, or owners son,
who had styled the tree ( my japanese translater was not good enough), before I bought the tree, and it became mine.

If I decide to sell the tree, will I tell this story.
It will then be up to the new owner, to tell the story again, when selling.
If the tree continue to look pretty, the names on the persons, who has worked/owned the tree, will maybe not be forgotten.
If someone in many years will find, the collected story, is worth telling, only then will the tree be famous.
Only time will show.

I belive, if a famous japanese tree was created from nurserystock, the very first gardener, wil not be remembered.
If the same tree is made from yamadori, will the first finder, only be remebered, if she was famous in the first place.

Kind regards Yvonne

Hey Guys I thought we had done this all before
The Koreshoff family are one of the Pioneers in Australian Bonsai. The daughter Deborah put out the fantastic book Bonsai: it's Art, Science, History and Philosophy.
Deborah has mostly moved on from Bonsai at the moment and sold of many of her and her husbands trees.
Our National Bonsai and Penjing Collection was able to raise some money to acquire a couple of trees. Deborah got wind of this before the Auction and made it a stipulation that any trees bought from her could no longer bear her name as she no longer cared for or styled the trees. Same for her husband.
The trees that the NBPCA acquired are now named as Anonymous and is the flavour of Joking as all who know Bonsai in Australia know Deborah's trees.
Intrestingly the Koreshoff's are not the only ones in Australia that do this. But this is often stated as being for theft reasons.
We have many people on Australian Forums that will not show their trees for they state fear of theft. In fact it has become the culture in some circles.

If we look to the Japanese I understand they do not give the history of the tree. If information was given firstly it would be about any awards it had won. I think collecting Bonsai can be just as much about the journey. Buying and selling trees continually improving your collection. That would be a pretty exciting way of enjoying this art.
It is even possible that some find displaying the names of the people that went into creating the tree as brash and name dropping for notoriety instead of asking people to just take the tree for what you see.

Personally I like the idea that people would now it was my tree. But I don't think anyone can demand it should be done in any certain way. In fact I would like to experience both attitudes. If my bonsai are good enough those that want to know will.
I have always thought I would hope to create at least 6 trees that would be worth preserving when I am gone
I would also like to be part collector of Bonsai.

Edit: few posts while I was writting this

Sensible and balanced view of things, Brett. Thanks for posting that. I too see myself primarily as a collector as I have reached a limit of bonsai ability that precludes me from anything approaching even meriting the term "artist" far less "master". Should I be debarred from showing my trees at exhibitions because I am not the artist? I hope not as the public would be denied an opportunity to see decent trees. I think it is fair to say that a good proportion of the finest trees in the UK are in the collection of someone who is only a collector. This someone hires one of Jun's "gardeners" to maintain the collection and even improve the trees. That "gardener" is one of the top bonsai artists in the UK, yet he, like everyone else in the UK will see those trees as Collector X's trees. Collector X does not make any attempt to claim the creative part of the tree but is named as the owner on labels at shows - where, incidentally, the public get the chance to view not just good but splendid trees. Everyone is happy with this, and I see no reason why the situation should not exist happily anywhere else.

If an artist is so bothered about whether his/her name appears on the label, then don't sell your trees.

I find myself with Jim Lewis' age-old words going through my head: humans like to label and categorize things. Why should it always be so?

fiona wrote:Sensible and balanced view of things, Brett. Thanks for posting that. I too see myself primarily as a collector as I have reached a limit of bonsai ability that precludes me from anything approaching even meriting the term "artist" far less "master". Should I be debarred from showing my trees at exhibitions because I am not the artist? I hope not as the public would be denied an opportunity to see decent trees. I think it is fair to say that a good proportion of the finest trees in the UK are in the collection of someone who is only a collector. This someone hires one of Jun's "gardeners" to maintain the collection and even improve the trees. That "gardener" is one of the top bonsai artists in the UK, yet he, like everyone else in the UK will see those trees as Collector X's trees. Collector X does not make any attempt to claim the creative part of the tree but is named as the owner on labels at shows - where, incidentally, the public get the chance to view not just good but splendid trees. Everyone is happy with this, and I see no reason why the situation should not exist happily anywhere else.

If an artist is so bothered about whether his/her name appears on the label, then don't sell your trees.

I find myself with Jim Lewis' age-old words going through my head: humans like to label and categorize things. Why should it always be so?

The "gardener" in Europe is way lot different from a gardener in third world like ours. I know how a gardener works in Europe or in the US and I have a basic knowledge on their livelihood because of my line of work, and employing people here is more personal (its more on helping the less fortunate people to have a job, rather than me needing their help), here the more people you employ the more stomach you are saving from starvation.
...I hope you didn't got me wrong with my statement that I have gardeners.

and to just to keep the other viewers perception on the right track, I don't sell trees or anything related to bonsai.
I am not asking for anything like a mandatory labeling with artists name,,, just want to promote a balanced playing field for small time bonsai artists, specially here in this part of the world where there seems to be a real master and a real slave relationship...even in bonsai and I personally know it.

History is one of the best teacher humanity can have.

regards,
jun

I think you guys should shift to the topic - Bonsai Master.

There are only so many ways to say - this is how it is and it is not going to change, unless you take up a legal situation.

Master is someone who everyone tries to emulate - Kimura and the Murata's come to mind.
[ emulate - try to equal or excel;imitate ]
Have fun.
Khaimraj Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

fiona wrote:

stavros wrote: A rich "dude" who buys a ready made high quality bonsai, exhibits it and receives an award, can never feel the joy of creating it and seeing it growing; he missed the whole magic, the journey...

But he (or SHE) can "feel the joy" of knowing that it is being seen by an admiring public when it is displayed in a proper exhibition.

"feeling the joy" of seeing the public admiring a tree that I have bought (not created or at least restyled) for me can only mean one thing = boost of ego.
Most of us have taken the art Bonsai as a past-time, a hobby, and it can surely serve if i may use the title of a book, as "chicken soup for the soul". In this case our main aim is the joy of growing and styling, and for the ones who dare to expose their art, the admiration of our trees at exhibitions. If an award comes our way, it should feel more as a recognition of our work rather than an ego trip.
These are my personal thoughts.

jun wrote: History is one of the best teacher humanity can have.

Can indeed - but seldom does it work that way. History is as they say usually written from the side of the victors with little thought to the "little people" you are so keen to protect. History is the very thing which makes humans "famous" - for right reasons or wrong. Not a particularly good analogy, Jun.

I see nothing wrong with a tree in an exhibition being marked with the owner's name rather than the original artist. If you want to have an additional factsheet outlining the tree's history then that is equally good but is, as Morten suggests, another story. Maybe we should just do away with information on exhibition trees that state anything other than genus and species. That way we most certainly would put emphasis back where it belongs - on the tree.

stavros wrote:

fiona wrote:

stavros wrote: A rich "dude" who buys a ready made high quality bonsai, exhibits it and receives an award, can never feel the joy of creating it and seeing it growing; he missed the whole magic, the journey...

But he (or SHE) can "feel the joy" of knowing that it is being seen by an admiring public when it is displayed in a proper exhibition.

"feeling the joy" of seeing the public admiring a tree that I have bought (not created or at least restyled) for me can only mean one thing = boost of ego.
Most of us have taken the art Bonsai as a past-time, a hobby, and it can surely serve if i may use the title of a book, as "chicken soup for the soul". In this case our main aim is the joy of growing and styling, and for the ones who dare to expose their art, the admiration of our trees at exhibitions. If an award comes our way, it should feel more as a recognition of our work rather than an ego trip.
These are my personal thoughts.

Very well said Stavros!
I like the Ego trip the most...

...I haven't join any bonsai exhibit or worst a competition, but some people told me the same thing...It will boost your ego when you win, Maybe those people in the first place got a very low self esteem to start with.

Like what Khaimraj said...nothing will change, and to some people who sent me PM and email telling me its a lost case since the beginning of this thread. Thank you... but at least we made our point...only history can judge our generation of bonsaists when records and essence of the trees we have today are lost somewhere in time.
Thank you people for giving your input on this thread... and my apology if I did sound hostile to some.

regards,
jun

Jun,

as History goes, read the stuff about Japanese Bonsai or Chinese Penjing, it is pretty much spotty information, since Bonsai / Penjing isn't really that important. We live in the ending of the - feel good about yourself era brought on by Moderns.

I see it especially in the ages of 65 to 40 ty ish.

This is what is going on in the world today - apologies it is a side step -

[1] http://www.florenceacademyofart.com/

[2] http://www.charlescecilstudios.com/

[3] http://www.angelartschool.com/mja.html

The first two are American and the second English, this is also blooming in England, France, USA, Canada. A full list is obtainable here - http://www.artrenewal.org/

The world is returning to the older standards, but with new ideas.
The IBC is a list of mostly hobbyists and the only ones remembered wil be Professionals.
So become a Professional if you want History to even look at you.
Khaimraj Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Jun,

as History goes, read the stuff about Japanese Bonsai or Chinese Penjing, it is pretty much spotty information, since Bonsai / Penjing isn't really that important. We live in the ending of the - feel good about yourself era brought on by Moderns.

I see it especially in the ages of 65 to 40 ty ish.

This is what is going on in the world today - apologies it is a side step -

[1] http://www.florenceacademyofart.com/

[2] http://www.charlescecilstudios.com/

[3] http://www.angelartschool.com/mja.html

The first two are American and the second English, this is also blooming in England, France, USA, Canada. A full list is obtainable here - http://www.artrenewal.org/

The world is returning to the older standards, but with new ideas.
The IBC is a list of mostly hobbyists and the only ones remembered wil be Professionals.
So become a Professional if you want History to even look at you.
Khaimraj Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Come on Khaimraj! I'm done with this thread. but for you my friend I will visit that list of http www. something

I have no plan for history to look at me...that's for the egoist like that small french guy who lost all he got because he has hemorrhoid problem. or that half man half lady alexander who failed to invade your homeland because he was afraid of some elephants...I have a higher self esteem than those two...
and oh! I am a professional in my other life. that is where i get my funding for this expensive hobby of mine.

regards,
jun

"feeling the joy" of seeing the public admiring a tree that I have bought (not created or at least restyled) for me can only mean one thing = boost of ego.

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, at our major regional show each year, trees are not even labeled with the owner's name, only the club's name is evident for the trees within a given club's display. Most of the folks I know in bonsai are rather humble regarding their skill and collection and their ego does not rely on adulation of their "trees" to feel adequate.