Viewing distance in Bonsai.

...Errr...What is the topic again?
oh yes, the distance and angle of viewing.
I think turn table should be given a chance in an exhibit, and some people should be fair and open minded enough to allow such approach.

regards,
jun

You guys are as bad as politicians or the news media: Black OR white. Pro OR con. This OR that. Front OR back, Right OR left, Liberal OR conservative. There are more than two sides to every issue (and to a bonsai, of course).

I doubt that any of us who feel that you should view what the "artiste" considers to be the viewing side (AKA front) are even trying to intimate that the "backside" or the "leftside" or "rightside" of a bonsai should be an unfinished mess. That side might, however, have branches blocking the "traditional" view of the trunk line. Or the lowest branch may NOT be off to one side or another, or . . . .

Viewing trees to all sides -- or that cockamamie software that rotates the tree -- may be very important in development of a tree, or the seeking of advice; at a show, it's a gimmick.

Maybe when I talk to one of you I should turn my back so you can address my . . .

Ravi's comment wasn't so much about the front as it was the distance. There will be an interesting article in the next BCI magazine that addresses this topic by a well known Italian author. Check it out.

As for me I love to look from a far and to stick my head in close to see what the artist has done to create the image from afar. That's how my emoticon got the eye patch!

I do wonder if much of this is simply, I learnt my technique, and now what do I have to say with my trees ?

Well, 3 to 5 years to master the Horticultural [ how to keep healthy ] and I usually suggest at least 3 years of Art study, at some point design will become important.

However if enough Art is not absorbed, it may or will become a dog chasing it's tail act.

Has anyone considered the lighting under which a tree is viewed?
Even if you use x distance to view for training and display, frontal or in the round.
What lighting was used to train, same as for display ?

Outdoors I work under shade, diffused light [ cool if you wish.]
When I image for the Internet, I use eastern morning light, 45 degree angle, supposed to give the maximum depth [ warm light.]

Jun I believe uses overhead, and warm. Which seems to intensify foliage volume ?

So when you display, does your training illumination match the exhibition illumination, does it matter ?

Lastly remember, with all the technique and observation [ reality and memory ] if you had nothing to say from the start, there is most likely going to be nothing at the end [ not the leprechaun's by the way.]

Of course, your trees may just be fond memories, that you can share with those who can make the link.
Memories anyone.
Khaimraj [ when I was young I climbed a tree and fell, skinning my knee.]

Walter Pall wrote:If you insist in 'the artist's choice' you better never expose your trees to folks who professionally exhibt art. They don't give a d..n what your choice is. You deliver the object and they exhibit it. Period.

Funnily enough Walter, I have 2 artists in my house tonight, my wife Bev and her best friend. They have both exhibited at galleries and exhibitions and have had a great deal of input as to how their art instalations/ paintings should be displayed, and rightly so. I don't think this should be any different for bonsai. Who is the artist....the creator or the curator?
I also notice that in a lot of your photos you are pictured with your tree, often in the background......or is that the foreground

Dorothy wrote " I do not believe that any of the Kokofu trees has an "unfinished" or faulty back for example just because they are only showing the front of the trees..."

Dorothy, have you been to the Kokufu exhibition? I have been only twice, but there were certainly a few trees on exhibit that had some serious flaws when viewed from alternate angles. All were remarkable, nonetheless.

I think the proper viewing of a tree, for more than a casual walk by, will include different viewing distances (to appreciate both the 'big picture' as well as subtle details)and different viewing angles.

After 5 pages, I am wondering what have I started........ It certainly does pain me and there is a lot that I want to say and surely enough I will.. It is just that I need time. Just back now after our bonsai club's annual picnic and a little sapped of physical and mental energies. Nevertheless here are a few lines especially for Hans...

Hans... to me you are a honourable and knowledgable master. I have seen your trees and they are of very high quality. No two ways about it. It is also through IBC that I have come to know you and I consider it my previlege to have known you and your works. I am not Walter's spokesperson nor do I know any previous disagreements you both have had but from what I understand and interpret with limited resources, Walter was not calling your trees crap. Anyone who has seen your trees cannot call them crap. I am sure of this. What Walter was calling as crap was trees of other bonsaists who often hide half baked work by tucking away the errors on the sides or at the back where the viewer has no way of seeing these flaws. To quote John Quinn "there were certainly a few trees on exhibit that had some serious flaws when viewed from alternate angles"

If tree at Kokufuten can be faulty they can be so at any exhibition. This is what I believe Walter was saying. 3D displays on the other hand places a lot of responsibility and pressure on the bonsai artist as now his / her work will be viewed from every possible angle.

IBC for me has been a great place thanks to people like you Hans. I have learnt a lot from you and also from others at IBC. It would sadden me immensely to see you stay away from IBC especially when it has been the result of a thread that I have started.

I would humbly plead with you to please reconsider your decision. It would certainly be a loss to IBC and to me personally. I ain't no moderator but this is my plea. I hope to say more on this thread in the next day or two when I regain my energies. Do hold on..... Please...

Regards
Ravi

This one is for the Mods who have stepped in and done their bit in bringing sanity and sanctity to this thread and to IBC

A BIG HEARTFELT THANK YOU.........

This has to be the saddest thread i've ever read on a Bonsai forum.
I find it sad that a "peaceful pastime" that allows you to be involved with Nature through every season for so many years and the chance to engage with like minded people can descend into pathetic playground bullying.
If this is a gentle peaceful tranquil pastime then God help us when it turns nasty !
The actions of the playground bully have had a profoundly negative effect on a number of individuals.
As is the case in many walks of life and business, the people who have a talent for something often find themselves lacking in basic communication and people skills.
It does us all good to sit back sometimes and think why we started Bonsai in the first place and why we still have a passion for it.

I havent been involved in this thread for so long, and Ive read it tonight. Im tired and maybe I missed several things but I just wanna share my thoughts too.
I have had a lot of discussions with my friends about art. Bonsai etc. A good friend says that only some paintings, sculptures etc is art. Bonsai isnt. I dont agree. But I have to respect that.
I am working alot with my trees. I like to draw and I play music. That means alot to me. I play bass guitar, guitar and violin. And I also enjoy singing.
But I do it the way I do it. And I present it to other people when I say its good enough. Nobody else. Who has put the time and effort into it? Thats me.
Who is it that is the owner? Yep, me again. And who is it that has to be satisfied with the result, me again.
If someone would come to me and tell me my music isnt good enough, it should be played this way. Or the frame of a picture is wrong, then dont look at it. It can hang safely here at home at my wall.
If I want to show my tree, it shall be shown the proper way. Any curator cant come here and tell me how it shall be viewed.
I will most likely never have a very good tree at an exhibition. Nor become a person that can build a life of working with music. But atleast I dont have to sit and watch my own work be shown of others rules.
I hate contests when it comes to art. For who shall judge it but me?
All this doesnt mean that I cant take criticism. If a proffesional singer would tell me I have to work on my pronnounciation(?) I would ofcourse not ignore it.

I really find it sad that some of the members dont want to be here anymore. Just because grown people havent got the manners to talk politely to each other. And as you see, im not flaming anyone for anything. Im not gonna take sides.
You dont have to agree, but atleast done get a big fuzz over it.
I come here to get help and have a nice discussion with you all. Cause I care for what you think. Dont abuse that. Hopefully this thread can stop here, and that we all can continue to work with trees together.


Edit: Can I ask, is there many posts here on this thread that has been removed?

The moderator group tries mightily to leave the forum to self moderate, so to speak. If someone posts in a confrontational way, forum participants usually post comments that, if necessary, take the offending poster to task.
However, when comments stray away from criticism (even harsh ones) of ideas or entrenched beliefs into attacks on the individuals involved, perhaps even threatening violence, such posts will be summarily removed.

Hy Ravi,

Adding this to my earlier reply:
Distance is for me not only an issue of the fysical space between me and the tree.
It is a neccesary creative space where i can learn.
In styling and maintaining a tree i can go to a certain point wich i learn to recognise, from there the tree responds in accordence to his nature.
Each time i am amazed how the tree mirror's my work to it, the way it shows me how i could proceed.
I have the possibility to learn about myself and the tree.
There is the sayïng: Everything is in the eye of the beholder,
you know, the eye cant see the eye, it needs a mirror.
For me bonsai is all about a human beeïng and a tree.
So allowing myself distance, i got space for appreciation.
I learn to stand back, and give the chance for something new to apear.
I wonder, the bonsaïst must be visible in any exhibited tree?
I mean the nature of the meeting between a tree and a man will be visible anyway in some new developing karakter of the tree?
Can a natural apperance of a bonsai say us something about the bonsaïst development?
I imagine, for me, tryïng to follow this path of bonsaïst, an extra dimension of appriciation, for a tree ánd grower is the first wonder.

No man no bonsai?

regards, Sunip

For starters do bear with the length of this post. It is a carefully thought out one and hopefully is worth the reading time.

When two venerable masters spar over knowledge, like churning buttermilk which produces butter, the sparring adds to the knowledge bank. However when they spar over personal differences, like two elephants on the savannah, it produces clouds of dust which obstructs the existing knowledge bank.

This thread was started with one simple question of what is a good viewing distance in bonsai. It quickly evolved into another very important question of should bonsai be displayed in the traditional way against a backdrop or would the 3D approach suit it better. Finally (so far atleast) it has (sadly) become a debate on forum communication etiquette. I wish to bring the focus back to the first two points as I believe they are important and would like to forget that anything unpleasant ever happened.

Despite the heat and dust that the Hans, Walter spat has generated, there are a few important points that I believe got missed out in the din. I would like to re-emphasize them so that IBC sees them in better clarity. What Hans has been saying about the conventional ways of display has been the way things have been so far. While that has been the way, it did have its shortfalls. It allowed for ways in which shoddy work could be hidden from the view. This is not to suggest that every one who displayed their work in the traditional way were hiding something and that their work was under-par or such stuff. However the point remains that the traditional way does offer ways to hide imperfections, should the artist choose to.

Then Hans raised the matter of presenting an artist’s work the way the artist choses to. This is a little subjective. Why I say this is, like many things in life there are two aspects to every thing. Like a buyer and a seller, a giver and a taker, a movie maker and a movie goer, in art too there is an artist and a viewer. While to a great extent, the artist has the first choice of having his way, somewhere down the line, the viewer’s preferences too must be considered. Other wise the same artist showing his work the same way – especially when the viewers do not like it, will result in empty exhibition halls. The very fact that the artist wants to exhibit implies that the artist wants people to see his work. So to some extent the artist needs to consider viewer preferences.

Then there is the matter of growth…. of evolving into something different if not better. In this case the 3D display. I firmly believe (like Walter – though Walter IMHO could have chosen a better way of communicating the same thoughts) that 3D is the way to go. Bonsai is a 3D art and the viewer would like to see the work of art in its entirety the front, back and the sides. This however puts pressure on the artist (especially the inferior ones and definitely not masters like Hans) where the inferior artist can no longer hide his flaws as his work is now being viewed from all angles.

Having said that 3D is the way forward, this can be done in two ways. The first one is to keep it on pedestal like sculptures are displayed and like Walter had displayed his work at BMW. The other one is suitable when space is a premium, is on a slowly rotating turntable. One needs to understand that the second option is not the preferred one but a compromise. I do not find it YUK like Jim does and to me it does not mean making trees dance. It does possibly mean that it makes the viewer dance with Joy at viewing a beautiful tree IN ITS ENTIERITY.

Jim also has some valid questions which I shall humbly attempt to answer. To the question Bonsai have (almost by definition) a front and a back that was selected by the creator/sculptor/"artist" so why on earth do we want to see the back? My answer is that, the definition of Bonsai has changed over the years for those who’d want to see the art evolve. And as the definition has changed, today’s viewer (atleast a few of them and like Walter would testify the list is growing) is not satisfied with the front alone but would want to see it all, front, back sides. To the question The tree should stand or fall on the designed angle of view. As the art evolves, trees going forward will be designed differently by the artists and will not have a single viewing angle but rather many viewing angles - thus necessitating 3D viewing. The artist will thus want such an 3D approach for viewing and appreciation.

In conclusion Hans’ thoughts explain why things are the way they are which is perfectly fine and Walter shares the way forward which IMHO will be a reality over time.

Hope this puts things in perspective and encourages IBC readers to grow as they broaden their horizons in bonsai.

Talking of satire I liked Jun’s satire of saying displaying a picture of the tree with a scroll and accent plating at an exhibition is as good as a conventional display. Though it is ridiculous, the message of what Jun is saying makes tremendous sense and a strong case for 3D displays.

Would conclude by saying that early in my professional career, I was taught the art of “LEARNING TO DISAGREE – IN AN AGREEABLE WAY”

Cheers
Ravi

The original way of displaying bonsai already is three dimensional.

All bonsai have a "front". Bonsai is to compare with a painting, relating to the landscape paintings of Japan. Therefore a bonsai have a front where it is best viewed, unlike sculptures which are viewed from more sides.

The front may change after repotting or restyling i.e. but always with the optimal front considered when these tasks are performed. The way bonsai are displayed in a Tokonoma / alcove, is also related to the landscape paintings. Therefore the expression and the mood is related to the landscape and time of year. Even the time of the day may be considered. An evening mood with a low sun at a scroll painting can suggest this, or the moon in the night gives the feeling of the cool night e.g.

Even though a bonsai has a front is is possible to view from other angles too, but still have a best position view. This means not that the back of the tree is neglected because it adds depth and may be visible through gaps between branches i.e.

The scroll (if used) and accents plantings further adds history to the main tree and its suggested location, environment and time of year e.g. What's important when viewing a bonsai on display is to perceive the feeling the artist has tried to express. We may individually read the same display in slightly different ways, but the basics will mostly be clearly understood by all.

A trend in Europe is trying to display bonsai viewable all the way around the tree, but this often neglects the peace and calm feeling of the basic display origin from the Tokonoma display arrangement.

The European 3D-set up also lacks the possibility of using scrolls and accents to express the living landscape painting from which bonsai origins in some way, and this reduces the bonsai to a plant in a pot. The artistic expression is lowered and furthermore the display lacks peace.

Having the landscape painting in mind when setting up a bonsai display makes it easier to arrange and read. The way this works the bonsai display is a three dimensional "landscape painting" even when you are not able to view it from the back.

Read the very well produced new book "The beauty of bonsai" by Junsun Yamamoto in English, published by Kodansha Intl. and available through amazon.com, Stone Lantern Publishing e.g. It enlightens this theme in a very well explained and beautiful manner.

I am sorry that both Hans and Will leaves, but I do understand the reasons for their actions. I have been off too, for same reasons and will miss these two.

Best regards
Morten Albek

Morten,

though I agree with you, you need to take into account that in order to use tables, scrolls, accents or other. One must first have Bonsai that are able to be exhibited.

As I typed earlier, the cost factor on average pots is high, at times due to shipping weight, and the realm of good to excellent pots [ handmade ]is well beyond the normal hobbyist. Tables, scrolls are worse.
Just to understand Chinese Ink paintings well enough to appreciate, is part of what the Chinese call - cultivating yourself and is a scholar's field.

As I also tried to explain before, bonsai / penjing was part of the Scholar's table and probably more for relaxing the mind, if it was used at all.

What seems to be happening here in these discussions is a mish mash of being practical and trying to exhibit, with no frills.
Bonsai can be a very expensive past time.

What Walter spoke of with BMW is a professional display where a professional Stager is employed and everything else is treated as ornaments for display.
If this is entirely so, he would have no say in the displays, just permission to bring in and change trees. Depending on how flexible the Stager would or could be.
We have the same going on down here at times.
[ You need to understand that Trinidad is a mini Brunei or Kuwait as oil production goes, so we get a bit more of the $$$ on luxuries, like wasting Millions on summits or royal visits. With time we will be flat broke and back to tourists.]

That type of display is nothing like an artist at a gallery, where one can explain why a work of art should be placed where or how high etc.

For me this 3d thingee is a reaction to costs, and it can work, but so can the traditional ways as well.
I prefer honesty, so I will say, tables, scrolls, accents cost and it will take me a long time to really understand or appreciate the use of them, but I am willing to study and educate myself.

Lastly, the arguments - head butting - most of you folk are not trained to handle a critique or any comment at all. Thicker skins will have to be grown.
If you want to be seen as artists, I suggest you learn to conduct yourselves as gentle folk. Lets not have the examples of primadonnas and primosenors of the past as billboard examples.
Until.
Khaimraj

As the art evolves, trees going forward will be designed differently by
the artists and will not have a single viewing angle but rather many
viewing angles - thus necessitating 3D viewing. The artist will thus
want such an 3D approach for viewing and appreciation.

Oh, I hope not.

I'm all for evolution -- of all kinds -- but I hope I never find myself a spectator in a bonsai show situation where all the trees are set out on pedestals so I have to wend and twist my way around them and am in danger of knocking another off its shelf as I back off to take a more distant look.

I'm 10,000% with Morton here.

========================

And, people come and go and go and come on and off the list all the time. Most just don't announce it dramatically to the world (though they may complain to one of us moderators). There's never a time -- especially on line and doubly so in a forum with a multi-lingual membership where things are so easily misundersood -- when anyone should take nasty and public personal potshots at another (or BACK at another, for that matter. Self defense is NOT a defense.) Use the Personal Message or e-mail route; there you can battle away, if you really feel you must.

Thinking about the 3D appreciation in sculpture.
The art of sculpture knows the relief like say the fine Egyptian reliefs, they are standing with almost no thickness in space.
Just playing with lines fine shape and light.
Then there are the reliefs coming out a bit more like a figure cut in half and been glued to a background.
There are also sculptures intended to stand in front of a building or in a niche and can never seen from the backside,
those sulptures have indeed mostly a not so interesting backside because there is no need to.
And then there are the sculptures to been seen in an enclosured intimate space.
Finally there are the monumental sculptures for the large open space outside
to been seen from all angle's and from far or nearer distance's.
All those posibilities brought beautiful, mediocre and not that developed sculpture.
Can we appriciate tree's also in those classifications?
Putting a 3D tree in a tokoname like Morten formulated is a beautiful way of experience a tree and reflecting on oure selfs.
But only one way i think!
Place a sculpture in an other space or light and we see something different, do we accept that?
The times of the day, the season's changes, they all give us different possibilities to appreciate in and trough a tree.
Indeed the surrounding area can disturb the appreciation thats why we create a frame or something to help us appreciate.
Every car seller know's his sellingspots in his showroom like artdealers know's theyres, they know how to work with the right light and so on.
The trouble starts when we begin with contest and things like The Best Tree,
we getting in a lot of experience then, is it not?
What does the eye with the tree, can we stage that?
An other issue, i love turntables to work on but one disadvantage about automatic turntabels in an exhibition is,
that the speed is never good, it never meets with your own ritme and speed of appriciation.
Is it a manual turntable, you don't want to play the public with it all day.
I prefer the space to walk around it with a preference for outside light because artificial light gives limited appriciation.
Artificial light tends often to focus on a particular aspekt, mood or character of the tree but then i like those focuses to sometimes.

regards, Sunip

Bonsai IS sculpture! Sculpture is not only art made by stone and clay!

or metal or plastic or bone or ivory etc.

But bonsai tend to un-sculpt themselves unless the "sculptor" stays on his or her toes, so it's not quite true sculpture.

Andrija Zokic wrote:Bonsai IS sculpture! Sculpture is not only art made by stone and clay!

Says not just a bonsai person but a man who has studied sculpting at the university.

"But bonsai tend to un-sculpt themselves unless the "sculptor" stays on his or her toes, so it's not quite true sculpture. Jim Lewis"
__________________

Yes, and this is the aspect that is so quickly forgotten. Which is why for any type of memory, you need a hologram.
Khaimraj

* I am a great believer in keeping a physical memory of human achievements. As in Bonsai Museums.

This one I promise to keep it short but not necessarily simple so allow me to tickle your grey cells not much just tickling them and not ruffling them up.

Traditionally like in many things, in Bonsai too there are ways of doing things. Let us say there are 2-3 ways. Now as the art evolves, another way has been added to the existing ways. Say a 4th way. It is important to understand that this NEW way is a DIFFERENT WAY. It is not a SUPERIOR WAY or an INFERIOR WAY just a DIFFERENT WAY. It is not a HIGHER or INTELLECTUALLY STIMULATING WAY or a CRASS and UNCOUTH WAY, just a DIFFERENT WAY.

For those who are used to doing things the old way it is fine to continue to do so. There is no need to look down on those doing things the new way. Similarly to those who are doing things the new way there is no need to look down on those who continue to do things the old way.

It is however important to understand that those doing things the new way know more ways of doing things than those who are doing things the old way. In that sense they know more. Also by doing things the new way the pioneers of the new way have extended the boundaries of Bonsai. It is ok for folks not to visit the new frontiers and to remain where they are but due credit must be given to these pioneer who have furthered the frontiers.

I hope this put things in perspective without getting into the heated discussions of 'MY WAY IS BETTER THAN YOUR WAY".

There was a very famous and funny Advertisement here in India for a Tomato Sauce brand called Maggi. It still is available in Indian markets and the Ad Line has become so famous that variants of the same are still in use till this day - almost 20 years after they were first used. The Ad line goes like this "MAGGI HOT AND SWEET TOMATO CHILLI SAUCE - IT'S DIFFERENT"

Regards
Ravi

Some thoughts.
Because of his tendency to grow into a shrub wen not taken care of,
the bonsai offers us a great sense of perspective (or stress?)
A mediocre sculpture can become overtime by influences of wether or other damage, quit nice to look at.
So also a tree in aging.
So not the bonsai in most case's.
When sculpting a piece of stone, the stone forgives you a lot of mistakes
(until you lose an essential part en you have to look for other solutions)
When using clay you can constantly change.
When working with a tree, he will forgive you some mistakes in accordance to his nature,
you can chance things to a certain point,
but above that, the tree itself is creating at the same time on his own terms.
In all of that we need distance and acknowledgement.
regards, Sunip

JimLewis wrote:
But bonsai tend to un-sculpt themselves unless the "sculptor" stays on his or her toes, so it's not quite true sculpture.

And sculptor tend to "un-sculpt" themselves. He try to give soul in piece of e.g. stone.

Just another side comment -

In Fine Art, the hobbyist / amateur, will usually pick the easiest style to copy and emulate. So the various art forums are filled with folk painting like the Impressionists or Moderns, very rarely do you get someone trying to paint like an Old Master.

Often it is because when the hobbyist needed help at a crucial stage of their development, they didn't get it. Then they create all sorts of reasons for why they - gave up.

With regards to Bonsai I am an Amateur or Hobbyist, and if I had gone to China or Japan, I would have been much further along technically and philosophically. I tend to mention China first as I frequently dip into their Classical Literature and Ink Paintings.

So the 3d way, which comes naturally to me, as does growing a seed or cutting - why - because it closely matches how I create a painting from a simple idea.[ Think Renaissance - Idealism - ono an ism, Fiona -chuckle.]
A yamadori is more like a semi-finished piece with a top dressing if done poorly, and frankly has little appeal to me, but I do enjoy looking at well balanced efforts, which could be yamadori.

When someone comes to me to start in Bonsai, I normally suggest a Ficus, a tough, fairly easy tree to grow. It is an encouraging tree to mind. It is very easy to discourage someone new to anything by making the start difficult.
However, if they survive the 6 months or so, I try to get them away from Ficus, because it is not an easy tree to really keep refined and would frustrate someone trying for an effort like they see in the books or today, on-line.

Thus the move to 3d Sculpture may be a new or other way, but at the expense of the other ways, and something wonderful will be lost. The lost ---- the steps needed to give one the ability to keep on growing in bonsai, the ability to discover and then manifest the ideas.

Plus not everyone who comes to Bonsai, is interested in being a Great Sculptor, just into enjoying a simple hobby.

As a hobbyist, I prefer to leave the 3d and Tokonome discussions to the professionals of the Bonsai World. They would be better informed in the subtle situations.

So I am all for a tree displayed in a circular walled space, and in exhibitions with enough space to step back without knocking yourself on the guard ropes set 2 feet [ 61 cm] in front of the actual display.
Khaimraj

* when will those new to Bonsai, realise that a yamadori is already partially there and should only be displayed when it is finished, for that moment in time.

Showing a trunk and spindly branches, means, someone dug it and it survived the transplanting.
****The Bonsaist hasn't done anything to be admired for, save have an eye for potential.***
We had a bunch of guys who could do that, but that is a tale for another time .......................