Viewing distance in Bonsai.

Thank You Chris!!!
Wood

Well, having read 1st to 7th page i have gathered TWO principal issues have been disussed -
1) what is the right distance to view Bonsai ( original topic of Ravi)
2) whether 2-D or 3-D/360* display is preferable.
Re distance i gather most commentators preferred freedom in space to view a Bonsai the way they want but find the space is limited in exbn due to various constraints on the part of the exhibitors.I can buy this point of view.
But i have a little problem in understanding the 3-D/360* view ,because, it may be suitable for an Informal and Formal form of Bonsai design ( to view it from all sides )but what happens in group/forest , windswept, slanting, cascade/semicascade, double/multiple trunk and various other forms of Bonsai designs?
How 3-D/360* display would help in understanding / appreciating these 'other 'design ?

Or are we to understand that modern /progressive way of doing Bonsai and showing is only to do it in Formal/informal form which can be appreciated presumply from all side?

SOUMYA MITRA wrote:
But i have a little problem in understanding the 3-D/360* view [/b],because, it may be suitable for an Informal and Formal form of Bonsai design ( to view it from all sides )but what happens in group/forest , windswept, slanting, cascade/semicascade, double/multiple trunk and various other forms of Bonsai designs?
How 3-D/360* display would help in understanding / appreciating these 'other 'design ?

Or are we to understand that modern /progressive way of doing Bonsai and showing is only to do it in Formal/informal form which can be appreciated presumply from all side?

Hy Soumya, hoping that i understand you right, here some thoughts.
Is a group/forest planting, winswept, slanting, cascade, or a double trunk not a (living)objekt in space?
Ok, a certain tree might have some nice angles to look at, and when one would have to choose to show
or make one picture, it would probably be this side you would use for your image or display.
This does not mean i feel, one can not appreciate the whole.
Having a tree in a rectangular pot does it means we made a decision to have two sides and one (or two) fronts?
Working on a tree who is supposed only to be viewed from THE FRONT, might have some branche placing
that would be different in a 3d intentioned Tree.
2D is an art suggesting a 3D tree and therefore a different language like relief ore free standing sculptures?
Should we therefore talk about two disciplines, the two and threedimensionals dedicated bonsaist
both expressing WABI SABI wich grounds are to be found in the 4D i feel?
regards, Sunip;)

Sunip ,
my dilemma is about some specific form of designed Bonsai and how that would be appropriate to view in 360* or on turntable to view as 3-D.
If those forms of Bonsai designing are practiced in reality then one would find how inapproptiate the viewing would be in 3-D/ 360'' contraption of display.
I also fail to understand how viewing an object from the front withheld appreciation of it as a 3-D object -if one has normal vision.
As because it is an 3-d object it does not necessarily warrant viewing alaround.Consider our own case while we take photo of human being . do we take their photo of the faces or ...
or why do we take photo at all ( photo is a A 2d thing!) of 3D objects all around us if it can't depict or impart 3-D effect( and that is the technical ability of the photographer.)
However this is not my intention to delve into phylosophical discussion of the merit of 2-D vs. 3-D.
But if you prefer still to clarify the issue raised ; then with open mind i would welcome some practical example through 3-D image which would show all the other form of Bonsai design , apart from formal /informal form, are appropriate and preferable to view in 3-D/360* format .

Hy Soumya.
Again, if i understand you rightly, some humble thoughts.
Maybe you answerd in some way youre own question.
If it is a dilemma or not is a personal choice, this sounds maybe harsh, therefore the following;
First of all, doing bonsai is a personal expression one eventually can share with others.
The need for rules in styling is also a personal choice, one can use the knowledge of styling to learn to understand.
To leave this all behind is possible, though not nescesarry.
The question what is appropriate in bonsai, is a path straight trough the bonsaist him or her self.
Only think of the idea of Wabi Sabi, it is crashing the mind, but there could come something else out of it,
I mention Wabi Sabi because it confronts us with the fact that we are separating the bonsaist and the bonsai, it places us for questions there.
But it is ones own choice if one likes to question, 'why i do things the way i do it' or not,
also here i feel the "viewing distance", one alows one self is an issue.
(Maybe you could consider my previous post again.)
Also you ask for practical examples if i understand you right.
I am not yet capable in the art of getting pictures into this post, but let say here in Europe we have for example
Walter Pall who is trying to get this 3D approach over in his own way.
Regards, Sunip;)

sunip again a lot of opinion from your-side without concrete example- i appreciate it could happen if one deals with an practical aspect theoritically and notionally.
My question ( modestly expressed as 'dilemma') is the dysfuntional viewing aspect of certain Bonsai design -form ( slanting/group/cascade/windsweptetc)if these are viewed from side or back.I presume you are familiar with these design forms.
I would welcome you view after you have examined these forms viewed from back/side( AS IN 3-D) and then opine.
The aspect of Wabi-Sabi is not in question here and is out of context in this discussion.
PL NOTE I'M AWARE OF THE EMINENT ARTIST'S WORK SINCE LONG( THRU INTERNET AND HIS BLOG) AND
IN 3-D AND ART EXBN ETC .
BUT I HEVE NOT COME ACROSS THE RELEVENT DESIGN FORMS ( other than informals mostly) IN 3-D /360* FORMAT THAT IAM TALKING ABOUT .
Not only from him but from any one who advocates about the merit of 3-d/360* format of Bonsai display as an 'in' thing and panacea for display of all kinds of Bonsai forms.
Do pl think hard and then opine -just name dropping is slavish and example of mind in bondage in my humble view.

SOUMYA MITRA wrote:
Or are we to understand that modern /progressive way of doing Bonsai and showing is only to do it in Formal/informal form which can be appreciated presumply from all side?[/b]

Hy Soumya,
If somebody who is in to the 3D approach, would avoid, say group planting or say a cascade style i can understand.
But for me personally not satisfying. By the merits of 3D, one could give a cascade in a high pot, more attention.
As you said,"viewing from the front withhold you not from appreciating the 3D"
Given the specifics of such an cascade object, it is still a tree in a pot
and there will be mostly favorite angles and less favorite angles, but why not give it a try?
Also the pot is already a frame but you can play with it.
Still such a design could have a 3D and a 2D approach, just as one wishes.
Is it the 3D approach of an cascade, for example branch placing could be different, maybe a moon shaped pot or slab would enhance the 3D a bit, still it is what it is, an object in space as a whole (and maybe not fully to be appreciated as 3D design).
If it appears to give you a 3D sensation ( if its just the suggestion of 3D or real 3D) is up to the viewer.
If one has to understand it the way as put in the quote above, or not,
(being formal/informal as the only possibility) is a personal choice i feel.
You get no rules from another only from yourself, (however rules have merits to).
Thinking in classic or modern is also a choice,
for me however it is just bonsai, that is why i mentioned Wabi Sabi.
For me it is about the unique in each tree.
Thinking about 3D and to figure it out personally, is good i think.
At least it makes you aware if a bonsai has the approach of suggesting 3D or real 3D.
Maybe the video from Ryan Neils demo at Noelanders show (Sandevbonsai.blogspot) you can find in the
"Live from Noelanders" thread, could give you an additional idea because Neil gave some thoughts as well on his approach.
regards, Sunip;)

Hi! All!

i'm short,....in this.

Did i read all. oops no......

Viewing distance,.... sorry,....i'ts me the art in Fx minor little that is!

As bonsai is not an art,...the display of any particular bonsai is!
As in mind of the displayer or shower...

Witch is a good thing! or not,.....

Where do we see bonsai?
On shows at peoples bonsai gardens.

An image strikes the mind,....and yes as art.
Even to the sole who isn't in dimensions or art...it strikes or not

The silhouette from a distance or sticking technique up close,....

I'ts al in the mind Jimmy Hendriks said.

True growing yamadori's and yes in shape.....of mind......sky church.
Also Jimmy...
Present,...just you're mind! it's you're tree....

Was or is this the answer?.... NO!

sorry!....hop

You only can go wrong,....1 out of 2 that ain't bad

Grtzz m. from the Netherlands where bonsaiwise thinking winter takes to long,.......grr grr grr

"By the merits of 3D, one could give a cascade in a high pot, more attention.- SUNIP"
Is it the 3D approach of an cascade, for example branch placing could be different, maybe a moon shaped pot or slab would enhance the 3D a bit-sunip

cascade( full) is generally displayed in tall pots.
In moon- pot that cascade would topple down -again dysfunctional.
Look at cascade from back or a Windswept from the back - and you wd find the image is not in sync with the image you expect from cascade and windswep form of design which was the artists intention while he composed the design.
It is a simple experiment if you are doing Bonsai yourself

" Thinking in classic or modern is also a choice,
for me however it is just bonsai, that is why i mentioned Wabi Sabi."-sunip

Well i understand what you mean and personally i like the concept of Wabi-Sabi in Bonsai design
( though difficult to incorporate in design- ).
But do you find such concept in present -day Taiwan ,Indonesian or in Eropian Bonsai Exbn other than in Bonsai of France /England/Italy /Nethernand?.

I doubt whether the exponents of 3-d/360* believe and practise Wabi -Sabi in their own work- or for that matter 'less is more' or such thing.

Now some even say 'Beauty 'has nothing to with 'ART.'

Well now i find this pertinent when i think about Cascade / windswept etc forms in 3-D format.

Quotes Soumya'
Well i understand what you mean and personally i like the concept of Wabi-Sabi in Bonsai design
( though difficult to incorporate in design- ).
But do you find such concept in present -day Taiwan ,Indonesian or in Eropian Bonsai Exbn other than in Bonsai of France /England/Italy /Nethernand?.
I doubt whether the exponents of 3-d/360* believe and practise Wabi -Sabi in their own work- or for that matter 'less is more' or such thing.
Now some even say 'Beauty 'has nothing to with 'ART.'
Well now i find this pertinent when i think about Cascade / windswept etc forms in 3-D format.
[/quote]
Hy Soumya,
Has beauty nothing to do with art? Well it was a reply from Walter Pall i think in an earlier post, quoting an art historian.
He probably was pointing at the idea that art is about expressing everything, so also the ugly.
Having only 40 years of academic and professional experience in expressing in 3D art, i come to the personal conclusion
that the beauty and the ugly are not that much different, just two sides of the same medal.
I humbly would like you to consider again the idea of Wabi Sabi.
Because a lot of the confusion here is about the disconnection we unconscious make in something that is not to be disconnected,
human kind is however capable of this be reasoning, only to gain a lot of experience which is not that bad either.
There are three things in everything; first the idea, the inspiration, second the understanding and motivation,
third the expression the result. Beauty is the immanent coherence in the three as it comes visible trough expression.
Beauty it self is however the source and therefor transcendent to the three.
So there is that strange beauty with no duality as we know it,
which we often intermingle with the normal beauty and the ugly we know.
Letting the idea of Wabi Sabi in to your system is being natural as everything becomes his natural place
"Less is more" as you mentioned, is then the conclusion to be experienced.
The three dimensional incorporates also time, well thats what use in bonsai to get viewing distance in all of this.
One your question on this; i do not feel the need to point out a special tree as example of Wabi Sabi
because all is in the eye of the beholder.
regards, Sunip;)

SUNIP,
Hmmmmm....
but still i would delight on your response to the 1st para of my last post.Here it is for your ready referance.

"By the merits of 3D, one could give a cascade in a high pot, more attention.- SUNIP"
Is it the 3D approach of an cascade, for example branch placing could be different, maybe a moon shaped pot or slab would enhance the 3D a bit-sunip

my response:-
'cascade( full) is generally displayed in tall pots.
In moon- pot that cascade would topple down -again dysfunctional.
Look at cascade from back or a Windswept from the back - and you wd find the image is not in sync with the image you expect from cascade and windswep form of design which was the artists intention while he composed the design.
It is a simple experiment if you are doing Bonsai yourself.'

This is a mundane practical question and thus does not merit philosophycal mumbo-jumbo .
Wabi-Sabi can be discussed in another thread. You may pl initiate one.

Hy Soumya,
This is a lovely confrontation between expectations from the 3D idea
and expectations from established bonsai styles is it not?
You rightly point out that i do not answer that expectation,
the answer would probably lead to just another style or set of rules.(just saying this in general)
Are we to understand that only the formal/informal styles are suitable for an 3D approach?
This tends to a closed circle, which is good to learn about bonsai practices, but still it is a closed circle.
If this feels good for somebody, ok then it has his benefit, obeying the rules is a challenge to in some way.
Free expression can be frightfully unruly.
Íf it is about the realms of being synchronic with the image you expéct of a certain style
or intentional design of an artist, indeed this not my cup of tea.
Since i gave you some insight in to my approach of this fenomena and this is doubted by you,
i like to say that i love that. Everyone has to go his or her own path.
If it al was a waist of time, well time will show us. (However i think nothing is waisted)
Soumya you are aware of the fact that we are sitting on the doorstep of Ravi,
who probably is wondering what is going on out there in his thread.
For now, thanks Ravi and Soumya,
regards, Sunip;)

Hy Soumya,
Sorry i realize i forgot your last remark.
Indeed if i would disconnect the inspiration the philosophy and the practical it would be
mumbo jumbo as you call it.
Disconnected it would have no ground no coherence
but then this can also be appreciated as a path of experience, not bad at all.
Regards, Sunip

Thank Sunip,
this is my last response on this thread.
However let me express that i responded here questioning the premiss that 'Bonsai should look good from all side and it should not have any scope to cover- up any defect by way of 2-d display -and the panacea is 3-d display.'
I expressed my doubts based on certain forms of Bonsai expression & I have nowhere used the term 'RULE OR STYLE' .
I still hold the view that to be 'GOOD' to view from all side , the so called formal and informal forms are fit to fit the bill better.

Those forms would function well but other forms of Bonsai design would be dysfunctional as those forms cannot look good from all side.
The forms other than formal/informal would look different ( and may not look good or convey mixed/confused feeling ) from each and every side .
This experiment could be tried by any Bonsai practioner.

But if the intention/ motivation/ phylosophy of the artist is to convey mixed-up/ different feeling from different angle of viewing then i have no problem.

PHYLOSOPHY TAKES THE PATH FROM THE SPECIFIC TO GENERAL.
My question is specific hence may be a generalised response from your side is apt.
Back to you and Ravi.

SOUMYA MITRA wrote:Well, having read 1st to 7th page i have gathered TWO principal issues have been disussed -
1) what is the right distance to view Bonsai ( original topic of Ravi)
2) whether 2-D or 3-D/360* display is preferable.
Re distance i gather most commentators preferred freedom in space to view a Bonsai the way they want but find the space is limited in exbn due to various constraints on the part of the exhibitors.I can buy this point of view.
But i have a little problem in understanding the 3-D/360* view ,because, it may be suitable for an Informal and Formal form of Bonsai design ( to view it from all sides )but what happens in group/forest , windswept, slanting, cascade/semicascade, double/multiple trunk and various other forms of Bonsai designs?
How 3-D/360* display would help in understanding / appreciating these 'other 'design ?

Or are we to understand that modern /progressive way of doing Bonsai and showing is only to do it in Formal/informal form which can be appreciated presumply from all side?

That sums up this article I guess.
That's an interesting discussion and I've learned a lot out of it.
@SOUMYA MITRA:
Regarding your question about 360* display of a group/forest or cascade/semicascade and how it would help in understanding / appreciating these 'other ' designs.
Steven Hantos from AusBonsai who is doing a wonderful job creating 360* bonsai display [ of some Australian bonsai artists imo ].

360* Jaboticaba - John Marsh
360* Juniper squamata Cascade style - Steven Hantos
360* Ficus rubiginosa Roots over rocks Style - Steven Hantos
360* Acer palmatum Forest Style - Arthur Robinson
360* Juniperus X media Shimpaku Windswept Style- Derek and Sue
360* Cedrus Lebani Literati Style - John Marsh

For the cascade/semi-cascade style and windswept style, in some cases a 270* view appreciation would be more adequate than a 360* view appreciation, for instance because of the "blindspot" that occurs behind the cascade, often due to the pot.
Well since its a topic on understanding / appreciating the display, ultimately like beauty/art, its all in the eye of the beholder.

Hope those 360* helps out in understanding this concept of viewing / understanding / appreciating bonsai arts.

More 360* views : Random 360 display

I didn't read all the answers ( sorry, i'm a lazy man ) , but do you know what is called in Europe "dynamic glance" ?
When you are in front off a tree with larges sizes, at a short distance, you can't see all the tree , your eyes must move up and down and from left to right to see more details, this creates what is called "dynamic glance ", with the same tree, at a long distance, this phenomenon don't exist , it don't exist also for small trees ( shoin, mame ) .

Hmmm . . . I wonder if this thread needed to be revived. (It is interesting, though, that we went through 8 pages of "discussion" of bonsai display without a single picture.

in the end, i'm not quite sure what the question/topic/statement is all about. I understand and i dont understand.

What about when you appreciate a monumental tree in nature, do you also have a moment/point/distance at which you like it the best? Probably, but that is 100% subjective. Its like the impressionists...its just a personal impression. yes some things are universally liked, by pro's or just by the accidental tourist, weird how that really just is a fact. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. its also to do with an emotion too.

some will say, yes nice tree so what, at any distance, others will say waw and look at it for an hour, wanting to come closer, walk around it, check all details.

ok, bonsai is not a tree in a scenery, you must alter things to fit/resemble the image/emotion you have when you see this monumental tree in nature, but it still is about the same thing.

So you style your tree how then? a good overall 360° good impression at let's say 2 meters? And also make sure the branche structure is ok? and the nebari?

Still you're creating a personal thing, people who love oaks maybe wont love beeches that are styled the same. Etcetera.
I think you cant get this discussion 'solved'.

greets