Satsuki azalea
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Toche
bumblebee
Russell Coker
John Quinn
Todd Ellis
shimsuki
Kev Bailey
ItalianCopper
JimLewis
jeffrey
14 posters
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Re: Satsuki azalea
Russell Coker Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:01 pm
Yes, but you usually see Rhododendron indicum - and I didn't want to confuse Jeffrey any more than he already is!
R
R
Russell Coker- Member
Re: Satsuki azalea
Toche Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:17 pm
Hi Russell, 
Excuse me, you're right and I liked very much your answer.
Excuse me, you're right and I liked very much your answer.
Toche- Member
Gwyther- Member
Re: Satsuki azalea
jeffrey Sat May 28, 2011 3:19 pm
This week, the tree is repotted in the moon shell made by Bryan Albright.
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jeffrey- Member
Re: Satsuki azalea
Glaucus Sat May 28, 2011 4:21 pm
jeffrey wrote:What is the difference between a one and Satsuki Rhododendron indicum.
It's hard to answer this question correctly in a non-confusing manner. If you want to risk being confused to maybe get a more complete answer, read the spoilered part. If not, go with what Russel said.
- Spoiler:
First off, Rhododendron indicum is the scientific name for a species of evergreen azalea. The Japanese call this species 'satsuki tsutsuji'.
But when we talk about satsuki here we don't talk about this wild form of R. indicum. We talk about cultivated hybrids. Just as corn, wheat or broccoli looks nothing like it's wild form, so are satsuki cultivar used for bonsai and as ornamental flowers very different from wild R. indicum.
All rhododendron are highly variable and their genome changes quickly. There are many many species. You may have heard about the lumpers vs the splitters in taxonomy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpers_and_splitters
The genus Rhododendron has a lot of this kind of debate. Species borders are blurry and even within the current human-defined species barriers, there is enough variation.
Then added complexity is natural hybridization. Evergreen azalea species are all quite fertile with each other and will cross-fertilize in the wild. Where the populations of two species meet, natural hybrids will be found. In a second generation hybrid, the genes will be shuffled around in a manner that will express genes from both species in an unique way, making each hybrid unique. Each hybrid will be different from both parents and from it's siblings in minor, but often significant, ways.
The Japanese collected the most interesting forms of evergreen azalea from the wild. This started 600 years or maybe even earlier. Many of them were natural hybrids, others mutants or both.
Satsuki cultivar for a large part originate from natural hybrids of R. indicum and R. tamurae (synonom: R. eriocarpum). The Japanese call R. tamurae, 'maruba satsuki' or 'round leaf satsuki'.
These natural hybrids were then deliberately crossed with each other. All seeds will be unique and the flowers will be different and each generation the best forms were selected.
At this point we are so many generations into this process that we can't track back many of the well known hybrid cultivar to their species ancestors. We will just get a dead end with a certain old named hybrid.
At this point many satsuki cultivar used for bonsai are very different from R. eriocarpum and R. indicum or crosses of these species. In the same way as a wild rose looks nothing like we have in our garden.
But some satsuki cultivar still look a lot like their wild species ancestors.
White flowers, for example, is a mutation or genetic deficit and a recessive trait. Many satsuki are white with coloured stripes, dots and sectors. These traits could only arise through careful hybridization and cultivation. If you cross such a satsuki with a wild R. indicum, these traits will disappear in all the offspring.
Right now we generally refer to the evergreen azalea the Japanese use for bonsai and put in their satsuki dictionaries. There is no clear definition. Some satsuki only have 50% R. indicum or R. tamurae genes.
Many western hybridizers, especially in the US, used satsuki or forms of R. indicum. But we don't generally call those azalea, 'satsuki'.
But people like to stick a species label on the plants we use. In most cases for satsuki, R. indicum is the most correct.
So there is no clear definition. The Japanese seem to classify evergreen azalea in three distinct groups.
Azalea they use as potting plants/bonsai they call 'satsuki'..
Landscape azalea they call 'tsutsuji'. These are the azalea you see in temples and gardens, often pruned in dome-shapes, creating rolling hills of flowers.
Western azalea they call 'azarea' (most western azalae they come into contact with are indoor R. simsii based florist/greenhouse forcing azalea).
You can call an azalea a satsuki when it has at least 1 parent that is recognized as a satsuki.
You can only call a late blooming azalea or R. indicum based azalea a satsuki when it is registered with the Japanese satsuki society and/or in a satsuki dictionary.
This is the best answer I can give. I hope it wasn't too confusing. It was to me at first. If you don't get this, just ignore it and go with that Russel said.
As for pots. I have always heard to go with a somewhat deeper pot for azalea than normal for bonsai. Since these were generally people with authority, I am sure it is correct. The reasoning behind it is probably that only hair roots of azalea are able to adsorb water and nutrients.
Glaucus- Member
Re: Satsuki azalea
sunip Sat May 28, 2011 5:18 pm
Hi Jeffry.
An interesting pot choice.
Looking at only one picture it seems the lower right branch has a problem,
because of that the balance of the whole is a bit disturbed i feel.
I am curious to see how you will develop the tree from here.
I remember, last year you did not know how the tree would flower.
It is the end of may, so what variety satsuki is it, do you have a picture of the flowers?
regards, Sunip
An interesting pot choice.
Looking at only one picture it seems the lower right branch has a problem,
because of that the balance of the whole is a bit disturbed i feel.
I am curious to see how you will develop the tree from here.
I remember, last year you did not know how the tree would flower.
It is the end of may, so what variety satsuki is it, do you have a picture of the flowers?
regards, Sunip
sunip- Member
jeffrey- Member
Re: Satsuki azalea
Russell Coker Sat May 28, 2011 5:53 pm
jeffrey wrote:Sunip....
[img][/img]
Satsuki Korin???
Yes, that looks like 'korin'.
Russell Coker- Member
Re: Satsuki azalea
xuan le Sun May 29, 2011 12:01 am
Russell Coker wrote:Rhododendron indicum is very general, like Homo sapiens. Rhododendron indicum 'Nikko' is specific, the variety of satsuki is Nikko. You could be Homo sapiens 'Jeffrey'.
R
Russell,
Can those 2 be the Nillo varieties?
Xuan
xuan le- Member
Russell Coker- Member
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