Two of Dale Cochoy's Kingsvilles

I recently purchased these trees from Dale as part of his ongoing sale of a portion of his bonsai collection. I am quite pleased with them.

Regards,
Tom

Here is the second tree.

Nice trees Tom. Glad you got them.

The pots are a problem though. IMHO the first one is a little oversized and the second one really oversized. You might want to shift them come spring. Just a suggesstion.

Regards
Ravi

Ravi . . . You might want to remember that those are (appear to be) fairly small trees and as such need a larger pot for health -- especially in West Virginia where nighttime temperatures are already well into the freezing range.

What works in India may not work up here.

We're due for the first hard freeze of the year tonight and the next few mights. It's time for me to put my tiny trees into their winter bed of mulch.

Ravi....thanks for your comments and input.

Jim is correct, the trees are small and we are now into early winter in WV...the first is 10 inches in height from the soil line, and the second is 9 inches in height from the soil line.

Best regards,
Tom

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your thoughts. Did not have that perspective when I posted my reply. Do understand what you say...


Tom,
All the best with your trees.. Do keep up the good work....

Regards
Ravi

TOM,,,I really like the first tree,good choice...may i ask if you could seperate the branches a little more with wireing??? that would give a widder spread and a really good canopy with a little growth..just a thought.. nice trees.. take care john

Tom,
I'm glad you are pleaser. I know it was a difficult selection process from the photos your friend took of all the kingsvilles ( and othr trees).
Ravi, both these trees have already been frozen here this fall ( NE OHIO, which is where they came from). I'm not going to defend the pot choices but they are almost all moved around to new pots at every repotting to keep a fresh look. It takes a lot of pots! and I learned long ago not to underpot my trees in the north.
Tom, I see you picked new fronts , from my choices, for both. I agree that the top one has a much nicer view with the trunk, width and foliage showing better from a different angle. In fact both do I think? I see you added some wire? Be careful of that during the winter here!

Regards,
Dale

Dale, good hearing from you....I am really enjoying the company of the trees even after such a short time....thanks for the reminder about wiring...you are absolutely right. I appreciate your input about the "new" fronts...always a hard thing for me to determine....I am sure they will change over time.. I really like the pots as well.

Talk to you soon....

Best regards,
Tom

Hi Dale,

Thanks for commenting on this thread. I am glad you did. I have for long been your admirer especially you pots and also your trees. Good to know that you were the previous owner of these trees. Having said that I thought there is a possibility that you misunderstood my comments so let me elaborate why I said what I said.

I still believe that the pots are oversized (I am open to being corrected in all sincerity). Why I say this is that I believe in the general dictum/rule/tradition that the depth of a pot should be around the same as the width of the tree trunk. In both these cases the depth of the pots is way deeper than the width of the trunk. Having said that despite my best attempts to follow this dictum I have not done so myself (and I confess honestly) in a few cases for varied reasons. But then again those are a few exceptions and just that. A vast majority of my pots do follow this proportion dictum and the overall result is visually pleasing I must admit.

Coming to these trees specifically, I believe that the trees are well trained and are of good quality. As a designer of these trees you would know better than me, the final design you had in mind for them. If there is still a good amount of growth pending for these trees then these pots are ok and once the desired goal is achieved the trees can be shifted to proportional pots. If however that is not the case and like me, you too believe that the design for these trees is achieved already then I would stick to my stance that the pots need to be more shallow. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Jim,

I have over the last couple of days mulled over your comments and have searched for reasons to understand why trees from temperate zones need to be an exception for the proportion dictum I have not found a satisfying answer. I have seen pics from all over the world of trees from temperate climatic zones and find that a vast majority follow this dictum with pleasing visual results. Or is it something that is particular to this species? Do let me know.

Just saying that I am from a different climactic region and hence unqualified to comment isn’t convincing enough for me. So please do let me know either through your personal experience or through a reference (an internet one or a book perhaps as I have a sizable collection of books myself) why trees from temperate zones are an exception to this practice. I say this in all sincerity and without any malice or sarcasm whatsoever. I also do not have ego issues about how limited my knowledge is and an open to learning. So pls do share your thoughts with me. Shall look forward to the same.

Regards,
Ravi

Ravi . . . I suppose that coming from a land where the soil doesn't freeze makes it harder to understand the insulating value of soil (among other things). But I was speaking less of the climatic issues than I was the size of the trees.

Small -- shohin or smaller -- trees need more soil around their roots (proportionately) than larger trees. I suspect you will find his mentioned in any discussion of the smaller trees. The current issue of International Bonsai magazine has an enjoyable article by John Romano regarding pots for shohin bonsai. He writes:

"Because shohin are so much smaller than common bonsai, it is more than acceptable to use a deeper or larger container. . . . Obviously the halth of your tree is the most important aspect, so a sightly larger container can simply be a healthier choice and visually may not detract from the overall effect."

He goes on to point that, often, we who grow smaller trees move them into tinier, "artistic" pots for shows, then move them back to larger containers later on. (He also notes that it is more acceptable for tiny trees to be in brighter, more colorful, or highly ornamented pots.)

So, like so many bonsai "rules," one size does not fit all.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the reply and keeping the discussion factual and impersonal. In continuing with the same spirit, here are my thoughts in response to yours.

1. I do understand what you say that Shohin or that smaller trees need deeper pots. The tendency to play it safe is perfectly understandable and for that matter the few Shohins that I have are also in deeper pots and not in shallow pots. However if I were you, I'd first confirm the size of the trees with Tom and then offer the explanation that you did. I wouldn't presume that they were Shohin to begin with because in case they are not then the thoughts you have shared would not be valid.

2. Again if Tom's trees are indeed Shohin then the climactic zone (ground freezing or otherwise) is not a criteria for pot selection. Then the thoughts that you share would not only be applicable for Yours and Toms climactic zone and also to me in the tropics. So your initial response to my initial comment of "What is applicable to your conditions may not be applicable to Tom's condition" would be out of place. Think about it.

3. I have no regrets about rules being broken. Infact I follow the rule that "Rules are meant to be broken. But before breaking a rule understand the rule and its limitations" For the conditions that you have elaborated I fully agree with you that the pot proportion rule may not be appropriate for Shohin and I fine with the same.

4. I am also aware that there are two more dimensions to our discussion and they are a)Species specific winter care and b)an indepth understanding of Shohin. While I have personally worked on a Boxwood (I dont think it was Kingsville boxwood) I am not fully aware of the winter care of the same and hence I do not want to comment right now on this. I shall try and collect some info and try and share the same on this thread. Coming to Shohin, I am yet to get a complete understanding about the type of pots to be used. While I appreciate John Romano's comments I'd want to check other view points on the topic. Once I have done that I shall have something credible to share.

In the mean while you might want to share your thoughts on points 1 & 2 above.

Respectfully
Ravi

You:

1. I do understand what you say that Shohin or that smaller treesneed deeper pots. The tendency to play it safe is perfectlyunderstandable and for that matter the few Shohins that I have are alsoin deeper pots and not in shallow pots. However if I were you, I'dfirst confirm the size of the trees with Tom and then offer theexplanation that you did. I wouldn't presume that they were Shohin tobegin with because in case they are not then the thoughts you haveshared would not be valid.

Me (originally):

You might want to remember that those are (appear to be) fairly smalltrees and as such need a larger pot for health -- especially in WestVirginia where nighttime temperatures are already well into thefreezing range.

I didn't state categorically that they were shohin, though Tom later confirmed it. I've been doing bonsai now for 42 years (give or take a year) now, and have concentrated on shohin or smaller for most of that time. These boxwood gave the definite expression of smallness just by looking at them, so I was fairly certain of my comment (though I'm glad that Tom confirmed it).

2. Again if Tom's trees are indeed Shohin then the climactic zone(ground freezing or otherwise) is not a criteria for pot selection.Then the thoughts that you share would not only be applicable for Yoursand Toms climactic zone and also to me in the tropics. So your initialresponse to my initial comment of "What is applicable to yourconditions may not be applicable to Tom's condition" would be out ofplace. Think about it.

Hard as I think -- and my 73 year old brain cells make it harder every year -- I'm not at all sure what point you're making here. Speaking of tree health -- which HAS to be foremost on our minds when dealing with small trees -- the more insulating soil you give them the better -- winter OR summer.

However, I don't know your conditions, and would never advise what YOU should do with YOUR trees. I'm just a couple of states down from Tom (and have lived (briefly) in rural West Virginia in my younger days), so I do feel somewhat certain about our growing conditions.

I'm not at all certain that this discussion needs to continue here. We've pretty much hijacked Tom's topic. PM me if you want to continue.

Thanks Jim for the reply. I agree that Tom's thread is almost hijacked. I've said what I had wanted to and guess you've done the same. Guess its time to return the focus back to Tom's trees. Thanks for sharing your thoughts in a very interesting discussion. And no - I don't see a need to PM you on this.

Regards
Ravi

Tom ,,I do like your trees..The pots are fine.still i think the first one could be spred out for a fuller canopy...take care john

This is one of Dale's trees repotted late this past spring....

Regards,
Tom

I'm a Kingsville grower. I agree. They need to be "over potted" as compared with most other bonsai.
Plenty of water. Little or no direct sun depending on your location. Light on the feeding.

Mike

TOM,, This one has come a long way!! a very nice bonsai and the pot goes well with the tree..you have done a good job..i like it a lot...good job take care john