pots by Mateusz Grobelny

Well,

if you are a person who loves cats AND dogs, how can you expalain why you love cats to a person who absolutely hates them and only loves dogs? Should he not rather expain why he cannot love both?

Here an olive actually planted into one of these pots.

Walter Pall wrote:Well,

if you are a person who loves cats AND dogs, how can you expalain why you love cats to a person who absolutely hates them and only loves dogs? Should he not rather expain why he cannot love both?

Hi Walter,

Nothing in life is Black OR white.......we have sooo many shades of grey.
Let's assume that i am a dog lover and i do not like cats, i would be very interested to know why someone else loves cats and hates dogs, because maybe, just maybe, i can find things that i would like about cats that i did not realise in the first place.

Andrija Zokic wrote:Virtual for my Olea europea in Mateus Grobenly’s pot.
http://www.animabonsai.com/2010/09/works-on-olea-and-phillyrea/

I really like this pot with this tree. It looks to me like the tree is sitting on a rocky mountain, a barren outcrop of rocks. I think the texture of the pot being harsh goes with the texture of the bark.

Walter Pall wrote:Here an olive actually planted into one of these pots.

Again for me this works so well, it looks like it is on rock,and the textures work well together.

stavros wrote:
What you say is fair enough, but you still haven't answered the core of the question asked by Hans.......Is it possible to be more precise?

It's same as if you asked e.g. Ronaldinho what he's thinking about while doing some dribbling. I suppose that he is guided by intuition, freedom, love for the game, and that he's trying to give his best, without thinking whether he'll do it in a traditional way or suddenly make up with something completely new.

Andrija Zokic wrote:

stavros wrote:
What you say is fair enough, but you still haven't answered the core of the question asked by Hans.......Is it possible to be more precise?

It's same as if you asked e.g. Ronaldinho what he's thinking about while doing some dribbling. I suppose that he is guided by intuition, freedom, love for the game, and that he's trying to give his best, without thinking whether he'll do it in a traditional way or suddenly make up with something completely new.

I suppose we are coming from 2 different worlds......You make a simple matter sound impossible to put into words.... Or maybe you believe most of us do not have what it takes to understand??

I've had enough of this thread......
My conclusion is that some just insist that if we cannot see the beauty of these pots and the innovation that bring to the bonsai scene, we are going backwards. Some think that we have to understand modern art to "get it right".

I am a sort of an artist in my field (facial plastic surgery) and i think i have what it takes to accept something as beautiful or not. The concept of beauty is something that you either have it or not.

You can certainly explain why something is beautiful in your eyes or not without by trying to enforce the idea "either you like it, accept it or you do not understand art". Most people in this forum have the ability to comprehend if you try to justify your preference.

Walter Pall wrote:Well,

if you are a person who loves cats AND dogs, how can you expalain why you love cats to a person who absolutely hates them and only loves dogs? Should he not rather expain why he cannot love both?

Walter, you just cant help yourself, can you? Right from the begining and right trough all this thread, you have refused to answer any serious question about why precisely these pots are the best choice for your trees in a normal, polite and non condescending way. If you are not even able or willing to discus or explain your own thought behind your new Bonsai art work and theories, and obviously cant stand any form of critique on any thing that you shown us or have sad. How than are you qualified to critique publicly other Bonsai artist their work in shows around Europe!? Artist that dont have a change to explain their thought behind there creations that they are showing there, a change that you have had right trough the whole off this thread, but simply refused to give! Makes you wonder doesn't it?!

And believe me, every time you come back with one off these nonsense replies or quotes, to well meant and relevant questions, you are opening more and more eyes!

Quote. Walter: And yes, indeed, it was meant to step a bit on the toes of a couple of folks here. Not necessarily your toes, Peter. And it worked! .quote

Typical again! And dont think that anywhere in these thread you have stepped on my toes, it was all planed from this side, to draw you out and finally open some eyes!

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Abraham Lincoln

Walter, I still have the up most respect for your work and what you have done for Bonsai in the past, that has not changed. But it would have made you a bigger person if you would have given me and others the courtesy to some normal answers and reactions in the begining of this thread! But I knew, when I posted my first reply/question, that that was idle hope on my part. I have watched to many other thread going the same way over the past 5 years on the bonsai forums! And I have witnessed to many embarrassing incidents during my 15 years on the Bonsai scene! Such a shame!
And this is my last reaction to this or any of your future posts. So one more pro who gives up on discussing your work, their work or Bonsai in general with you! In the land of the blind, one eye is king! Well don Walter!
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

People, why do you care? Somebody somewhere has his own tree potted in something that he likes, and explained why. So what? You like it, or you don't like it. That person give explanation, you don't like it. OK. Go on with what you like. But no, you want some explanation, above explanation. You want to dissect it and define with the words.

I have many friends professional artists. Their way of talk, expressions and terms are different than common language, they talk in a way that Walter talks. They are talking in metaphors and about feelings, senses .... it is not something that can be put in some definition ... "this is nice because of ......" it is more "by looking it gives me strong impression of..." ... it is language that can be learned and sensed, or you can hardly understand artist.

Marija Hajdic wrote:People, why do you care? Somebody somewhere has his own tree potted in something that he likes, and explained why. So what? You like it, or you don't like it. That person give explanation, you don't like it. OK. Go on with what you like. But no, you want some explanation, above explanation. You want to dissect it and define with the words.

I have many friends professional artists. Their way of talk, expressions and terms are different than common language, they talk in a way that Walter talks. They are talking in metaphors and about feelings, senses .... it is not something that can be put in some definition ... "this is nice because of ......" it is more "by looking it gives me strong impression of..." ... it is language that can be learned and sensed, or you can hardly understand artist.

Ιt is all clear now.....you guys are artists of a higher level and you don't have to bother


You people (Walter's followers I mean- no offense Walter) know about art, and the rest of us are clueless. You understand modern art and we do not.

We only asked something very simple and your refusal says a lot.

My dear you are not the only one in this forum with artists friends.....

On what grounds you know and understand art and the rest of us don't??

This sounds like a group of first year grad students saying it's good because it's different because it's art because it's avant garde because it's good because...whatever.

The first part of giving a good crit is determining if the artist can handle the "advanced critique". Walter can, no question. There is no reason to give him an insincere pat on the back.

At the very least we should look at the principals of good design. Beyond design we ask, "What is the context and content?

Don't say "It's cutting edge because we get it and you don't" You sound ignorant.
(I speak to the general group, not to a specific individual)

This has been an enjoyable thread to read for the most part, and I have spent more time on the IBC in the past few weeks than in the past months. I have to say recently it has become a bit odd, with the way “Visual Artist” are being represented. From the very beginning in art school (and even high school) artist learn visual language and how to articulate their thoughts. Like Preston mentioned there are those who will speak a lot and really say nothing, but those are not the majority. Most visual artist are able to communicate there thoughts very clear. In this thread it seems as though many labeled “Traditional” have attempted to explain their views very well and those coming from the “Conceptual” have given very little.

Here is an interesting story (history actually) which puts this rather long post into better perspective. This story is that of two Japanese Bonsai Innovators. It is important to know that both these innovators studied Bonsai in the traditional way in Japan. Having done that they chose to further the art by their innovation. This story is about Masahiko Kimura and Lisa Tajima.

Having named the two artists, it is rather easy to understand the rest as the clichéd saying goes “The rest is history”

Both the artists had to go through a period of non acceptance by the rather rigid Japanese Bonsai community. Having the strength to put up against such opposition gave two totally different results.

Kimura succeeded in his innovative approach to Bonsai and today is regarded as possibly the greatest Japanese Bonsai Master alive. Over the years his work has been well received and appreciated the world over. It is interesting to see that, world over Kimura’s workshops are events of immense learning to even the most senior bonsai folk. Assisting him on stage is an honor reserved for an elite few. Walter Pall has had such a privilege.

Lisa Tajima on the other hand has faded into obscurity. The only POP about her POP BONSAI were the pots which were FUNKY. The purpose seemed to be to break the boring monotony of rigid Japanese Bonsai by making Bonsai FUN. When the world at large didn’t take to POP BONSAI, the more serious folk heaved a sigh of relief. The irony was that Lisa was honored by a display at the famed Kokufuten but that exhibit was a "Traditional Bonsai" and not the POP BONSAI variety.

I am writing this to give my concluding comments on this very interesting and lengthy topic. “TIME WILL TELL” is a very famous saying. In the days to come it remains to be seen if pots in the style of Mateusz Grobbelny’s will gain acceptance in the world of bonsai. If international exhibitions will feature more if not a majority of such pots. If Andrija will buy 52 of Mateusz pots and 4 traditional ones.

By saying this I do not disrespect the artist in Mateusz. I have read through his long list of academic accomplishments and I understand that they are hard earned. What I failed to see is the word Bonsai in that long list. So I believe that while he is indeed an accomplished artist, Bonsai is not his specialization. What is a great pot in a general sense may not be great in the bonsai world.

We can keep discussing as the saying goes “Till the cows come home” and still not accomplish what time would. So let us wait it out and see if these “Innovative Pots” join the Masahiko Kimura Club or the Lisa Tajima Club. Time and people will tell… Till then let us enjoy the art that means so much to all of us


[center]

Very precisely and well said Ravi. Thank you.

Regards
Morten Albek

Ravi Kiran wrote: ... ... ... So let us wait it out and see if these “Innovative Pots” join the Masahiko Kimura Club or the Lisa Tajima Club. Time and people will tell… Till then let us enjoy the art that means so much to all of us

A dispassionate view, wisely expressed. Just like the previous post of Ravi Kiran.
Thank you!

stavros wrote:

Ιt is all clear now.....you guys are artists of a higher level and you don't have to bother

You people (Walter's followers I mean- no offense Walter) know about art, and the rest of us are clueless. You understand modern art and we do not.

We only asked something very simple and your refusal says a lot.

My dear you are not the only one in this forum with artists friends.....

On what grounds you know and understand art and the rest of us don't??

From my point of view this is all untrue. You have devised many things here.
You want precise answer, but you haven't asked precise question.

Marija Hajdic wrote:

stavros wrote:

Ιt is all clear now.....you guys are artists of a higher level and you don't have to bother

You people (Walter's followers I mean- no offense Walter) know about art, and the rest of us are clueless. You understand modern art and we do not.

We only asked something very simple and your refusal says a lot.

My dear you are not the only one in this forum with artists friends.....

On what grounds you know and understand art and the rest of us don't??

From my point of view this is all untrue. You have devised many things here.
You want precise answer, but you haven't asked precise question.

stavros wrote:

Marija Hajdic wrote:

stavros wrote:

Ιt is all clear now.....you guys are artists of a higher level and you don't have to bother

You people (Walter's followers I mean- no offense Walter) know about art, and the rest of us are clueless. You understand modern art and we do not.

We only asked something very simple and your refusal says a lot.

My dear you are not the only one in this forum with artists friends.....

On what grounds you know and understand art and the rest of us don't??

From my point of view this is all untrue. You have devised many things here.
You want precise answer, but you haven't asked precise question.

there is only ONE question - do you like trees in these pots ??? YES or NO

if you do then thats ok , if you don't thats ok

tim stubbs wrote:

stavros wrote:

Marija Hajdic wrote:

stavros wrote:

Ιt is all clear now.....you guys are artists of a higher level and you don't have to bother

You people (Walter's followers I mean- no offense Walter) know about art, and the rest of us are clueless. You understand modern art and we do not.

We only asked something very simple and your refusal says a lot.

My dear you are not the only one in this forum with artists friends.....

On what grounds you know and understand art and the rest of us don't??

From my point of view this is all untrue. You have devised many things here.


You want precise answer, but you haven't asked precise question.

there is only ONE question - do you like trees in these pots ??? YES or NO

if you do then thats ok , if you don't thats ok

At last a bit of sense to this.

I must say that I don't find these pots all that controversial and ground breaking. In fairness, I suspect that this was not the intention of the artist/potter either, and just simply his own artistic expression. In my view, these pots offer a very similar aesthetic/synergy as when slabs, rocks or even crescent type of pots are used. They offer a more naturalistic and realistic combination. I find it interesting how we accept highly expressive and "creative" pottery meant for use in Kusamono, but don't when used for larger trees?? As Attila mentioned earlier, I believe these pots offer a different kind of synergy with the trees. Not better or worse, just different. The more traditional pots work very well simply because they complement the subject by grounding and framing it, whereas the Grobelny pots become part of the whole unit in a more seamless pairing. An extension if you will of each other. Again just a different synergy between pot and tree... not better nor worse.

With that being said, my objection comes from some of the combinations used. Size, color and texture are simply not well matched with the trees in my eyes. The flow between both elements seems to be interrupted. However, I believe that a few other examples presented are very successful indeed offering a very natural scene. I think we are still speaking bonsai language.

Andrija Zokic wrote:Virtual for my Olea europea in Mateus Grobenly’s pot.
http://www.animabonsai.com/2010/09/works-on-olea-and-phillyrea/

It just happened that last night I watched a movie made in Israel, and I recall the harsh, rock-strewn landscapes in that movie. This olive and pot combination instantly reminds me of that rough and barren landscape, in a way that no other pot-tree combination would. I feel that I would like to touch that pot and feel the harshness with both my hands. This pot is so organic, that I also want to smell it and (sorry guys), lick it, for good measure.
It is true that I have to fight my bonsai instict to accept what I see, but the effect that this combo evokes is unmistakeable and powerful. Which is a good thing, after all.
Why does it remind me of that haunting and eerie landscape, you may ask. Does it really matter? I could write a 5 page essay about it, but would it change anything?

Of course, I can easily imagine this tree planted in a powerful, rectangular, well-proportioned bonsai pot...strong enough to match the rugged masculinity of this olive. And I am sure that I would enjoy that picture very much. But it would be a very different illusion. The image, and the feelings that this pot evokes in me, would be completely gone. So, which one do I prefer...what to do, what to do? There are moments when I am in the mood for one, and moments when I want the other. Thank God, we don't have to own just ONE piece of art, but can have an entire COLLECTION. Different pieces, for different moods and occasions. Alas, we have a solution!

Ravi Kiran wrote:... If international exhibitions will feature more if not a majority of such pots. If Andrija will buy 52 of Mateusz pots and 4 traditional ones.

Interesting logic, but I can't help but think of this:
As much as I like the "Guernica", I don't think that I would like to have one copy displayed in every single room of my house. But I would be delighted to have one Norman Rockwell in my living room, and kids room, and kitchen, even in the hallway. Does this make Norman Rockwell a better artist than Picasso? Not necessarily.. But I do get your point that good art tends to be timeless.

Attila Soos wrote:
Of course, I can easily imagine this tree planted in a powerful, rectangular, well-proportioned bonsai pot...strong enough to match the rugged masculinity of this olive. And I am sure that I would enjoy that picture very much.

Of course! But I don't want to play it safe! Thanks Attila.

Attila Soos wrote:

Andrija Zokic wrote:Virtual for my Olea europea in Mateus Grobenly’s pot.
http://www.animabonsai.com/2010/09/works-on-olea-and-phillyrea/

It just happened that last night I watched a movie made in Israel, and I recall the harsh, rock-strewn landscapes in that movie. This olive and pot combination instantly reminds me of that rough and barren landscape, in a way that no other pot-tree combination would. I feel that I would like to touch that pot and feel the harshness with both my hands. This pot is so organic, that I also want to smell it and (sorry guys), lick it, for good measure.
It is true that I have to fight my bonsai instict to accept what I see, but the effect that this combo evokes is unmistakeable and powerful. Which is a good thing, after all.
Why does it remind me of that haunting and eerie landscape, you may ask. Does it really matter? I could write a 5 page essay about it, but would it change anything?

Of course, I can easily imagine this tree planted in a powerful, rectangular, well-proportioned bonsai pot...strong enough to match the rugged masculinity of this olive. And I am sure that I would enjoy that picture very much. But it would be a very different illusion. The image, and the feelings that this pot evokes in me, would be completely gone. So, which one do I prefer...what to do, what to do? There are moments when I am in the mood for one, and moments when I want the other. Thank God, we don't have to own just ONE piece of art, but can have an entire COLLECTION. Different pieces, for different moods and occasions. Alas, we have a solution!

Hello Andrija. This tree and pot combination does not furnish me with an image of a rock strewn landscape at all. I see a man made rock wall, like you would see in a market square.

MACH5 wrote:Size, color and texture are simply not well matched with the trees in my eyes.

What do you think about proportions on this composition (tree-pot)?