W+W+ Juniper

So Rob..apart from weeds, you also have a problem with the more "hirsute" lady? Is this a dig at my good self, or in general??

will baddeley wrote:So Rob..apart from weeds, you also have a problem with the more "hirsute" lady? Is this a dig at my good self, or in general??

Considering your avatar now, I guess you might take that as a dig, but seriously if you were single, would you date your avatar?

How very dare you!!.....I've never been so insulted... FIONA....KEVIN...JIM......

Actually, I do believe you were far more insulted than that at J of B by the Wirral Wolverines.

At least Rob gets your name right!

You can stop trying to minimise my pain RIGHT THERE!!! I'm hurtin bad Call yourself a moderator... shame on you. Just because you fancy his brother

Well, OK then. Just to show a bit of fairness, can I tell you that I can prove Rob wrong by saying that my brother fancies that bird in your avatar.

Or was it that bird in your latest post in Off-Topic?


Anyway - I'm furiously wiring at the moment so I can post a couple of pics of "bendy" junipers to get this post back on to some semblance of a sane tack. What Boon has raised is an interesting point.

Okay. Now if I'm picking this up right, the discussion was to do with "the curve of the trunk, location of key branch and location of the apex" - especially when there was a "drooping" branch concerned.

How do these three of mine fit into the equation? The first is one I've been working on all week as it was long overdue for a thin out and a bit of reshaping. The other two are ones I am bringing back to a state of health and foliage before I do any real styling. The last one is particularly below par at the moment. The middle one is probably the one that most resembles Will's tree.

Comments please - especially on the 2nd and 3rd trees as I have more scope for developing them.
(btw pics are a bit blurred round edges of trees owing to having photoshopped out shadows)

I guess the first comment I would make on your photos, is that you are not drinking the scotch fast enough. The label shouldn't have that much time to deteriorate!

Of the three photos #1 appears to be opposite Will's argument. The tree appears to be growing to the viewer's right, which would be in response to the forces of nature being hardest from the left. Meanwhile the foliage appears comfortably growing and "settling" to the left. (Still a very nice tree.)

#2 appears to be receiving the blunt of the force from the right, the damage to the tree's bark appears to have been taken hardest on the right and the majority of the live vein appears to have been protected from nature, by its own trunk. The majority of the foliage appears to confirm that assessment as the "best" foliage is growing away from the stress markers on the trunk.

#3 is a bit confusing to me. The forces against the trunk appear to have come from the right which matches the growth of the foliage primarily to the left. However, if you were to pattern the advancement of the spiraling live vein, it appears that the forces of the wind have actually circled, or at least provided a varying direction resulting in a clockwise twist of the live vein (if view from the top down.) However, to me, it appears that the predominant growth of the canopy appears to be strongest in a counter clockwise direction, again away from the the natural forces playing against it. The little wispy branch to the rear, however, appears to be unaffected by those same forces.

Add to that the fact, that I have never analyzed how the growth patterns of trees are effected based on what the perceived forces working for and against a tree have been. So my comments might have merit or not.

I guess I would like someone to grade my perceptions as much as I would like to see how others with more experience would critique your photos.

All in all, They are still lovely trees.

Jay

Jay, the mice in the glasshouse got at the label.

Probably because there wasn't anything left inside the bottle for them to take.

fiona wrote:Jay, the mice in the glasshouse got at the label.

Probably because there wasn't anything left inside the bottle for them to take.

I most certainly am relieved, the thought of a bottle single malt idly waiting for someone to appreciate it is truly depressing.

Jay. I think your analysis is very good, as are Fiona's Junipers. All three trees are very well balanced and aged. I disagree that my tree looks more like number 2. Although your Juniper is more spiralled, the shape of number 3 is more akin to mine. The majority of the foliage is on the left as is the character branch. Bulk of the deadwood on the right. The first pic has the deadwood in the direction of the lean. This speaks to me of rot rather than extreme conditions and is therefore convincing. Would like to see some others getting involved in this debate though.

Hello All,
Although everyone else involved in this discussion has far more experience than I do I thought I might add a cent or two. Jay, I think your analysis of Fiona's wonderful junipers is well stated and very solid. I must say that all of the ideas presented in this thread have validity. The only thing that I thought was being missed was the notion that there are a plethora of reasons for dead wood on trees. Will has touched on this in his last posting with the idea of rot. I think that all of the trees in this thread are great and I would be proud to be the owner/creator of any of them. I think in the end it all comes down to the story that you are trying to tell with the tree and personal preference. Anyway these have been my thoughts while reading along. Great trees all and keep up the great bonsai and philosophical work.

Todd

fiona,
this is from my studying from old International Bonsai Magazine and from the tree in the nature.
Apex and key branch are usually on the same side.
the first one, key branch is on the right side(same side as the apex). left side - long and strong branch is counter balance branch. to make it less dominant, make a wider gap between branch pads.
on the second one, it need wiring and clean up

now com the interesting part. one of my students has a tree that we showed last year. it has similar curve trunk and has the same flow as your #3 tree. and it also has the top. how interesting!!!

Thanks, Boon. The photo of tree #1 is as it was yesterday after a couple of days of extensive thinning out and wiring. There are areas of it that are a bit sparse in terms of the foliage being at the end of shoots (mostly towards the back so not instantly visible from the pic). There is also one sigificant area of juvenile foliage which needs to mature. I will of course do further refinement on the tree in the future but I think it's probably had enough for just now. At least it can "breathe" now - it was far too overgrown previously.

Tree #2 similarly needs to develop, especialy in the low branch. I will do some work fairly soon on the top part as it seems to be healthy enough now.

Tree #3 is very similar to the one you posted and the design your student has come up with is pretty much as I see mine progressing. It does however need a lot more nursing back to health so I'm sticking to that task currently.

However:
To further this discussion in general, I think we need to be quite clear on what each of us is meaning by "key branch" and "character branch" as I'm not convinced Will and Boon are talking about the same thing.

Perhaps we could use Will's tree, my tree #1 and if Boon picks one of his, and each of explain what we mean by our terminlogy.

It's Will's thread: you go first, Will.

The character branch is usually the lowest, longest and thickest branch. Sometimes more visible than the rest and can be used to balance the tree, if the apex is off the centre line. Can also be used to unbalance the tree.

Come on good people!!! I thought there would be more opinions and ideas expressed by now.

Sorry, I spilled my guts in one fell swoop. I'll need the weekend to work up another one!

Have a great weekend!

Jay

will baddeley wrote:Come on good people!!! I thought there would be more opinions and ideas expressed by now.

i have to work (on bonsai) for a living(have a good time too). I teach a study group in Seatle for the next 2 more days.
ok, back to the branch,
key branch (sashi eda or sashi-no-eda) aka directional branch, it is the branch that indicate the flow of the tree. there are translated articles in international bonsai about the tree in nature. Kyozo Murata wrote these article and draw the trees as found in nature.
key branch and apex are usually on the same side of the lean. moyogi and chokan, the apex is on the same vertical line as the center of the tree.
key branch can be the lowest branch or higher. it depend on the style and taper of the tree. for bunjin, key branch usually is on the top 1/3.
on a slant style, key branch do not have to be the first branch and can be on the same side of the flow.

understanding the location of the key branch, you can position the tree in the pot correctly and you can display correctly. accent plant will be on the same side as the key branch.

will baddeley wrote:Come on good people!!! I thought there would be more opinions and ideas expressed by now.

This comment wasn't aimed at anyone who has responded already. There is a wealth of talent on the forum, I was just hoping for other peoples opinions..

I tried to draw better, but not know. Basically I would have a lighter shaped tree crown. I'm sure you understand.






regards
Mario

I'm still not convinced that key branch and character branch are the same thing. D'you know what? Will is right - there is so much expertise out there yet still a silence, I'm inclined to hive off this section of the discussion on to a thread of its own.

Let's do it.

Too complicated. I thought you could take particular posts out of threads and create a new one.

Unless that lovely Kev Bailey can do that.....

Don't know how definitive this and if it clarifies anything

http://bonsaibeautiful.com/tree_sculpting.html

and of course all the foregoing thread applies to trees trained in the Classical Japanese style.

I'm sure the Naturalistic Fraternity would have their own, equally valid, ideas.

Thks

TimR

G'day Fiona...

Remember...IMAFMHO (InMyAncientFeebleMindedHumbleOpinion)…

Over all...I see you on the right track with all three of your posted trees.

Howsomeever...I feel that the upper 2/3s of the foliage on the third subject is too heavy...too thick...for the beatutiful, ancient appearance of the trunk.

Wonderful bonsai...the three of them...nevertheless, m'Lady.

And remember, I said "...remember...IMAFMHO (InMyAncientFeebleMindedHumbleOpinion)…".

Pat…mounted on my trusty stead, riding off wildly in all directions…

fiona wrote:Too complicated. I thought you could take particular posts out of threads and create a new one.

Unless that lovely Kev Bailey can do that.....

Mods had that option previously...