OPINIONS - SOLICITED AND UNSOLICITED

Just wanted to see others thoughts on something that I have been thinking about...

As I look at posts, here there and elsewhere, I feel conflicted in offering opinions on design.
(and only on design - everything else being based in horticulture, science and near-absolutes)

I for one, would never even dream of looking over the shoulder of a sculptor and suggesting he alter the orientation of an appendage. Nor would I suggest to a painter that I might like one brush stroke over another...

And I ask this in regards to the recipient of the unsolicited opinions or suggestions being a generally accepted "bonsai master" or "sensei" or equivalent

Why do those things seem OK when it comes to Bonsai ?
Or perhaps the question is, IS that OK when it comes to bonsai... ?



I am purposely leaving this open ended for discussion without offering what may be my "personal conclusion"  

Kevin,

as Fine Art And Sculpture goes, you would be asked to critique the
studies / drawings / composition.

If the work is finished, most folk want praise.

I have drawings of my Bonsai, that control the shapes and I can
work from the drawings.
Normally I just keep the shapes simple.

It is supposed to take 3 to 5 years to prepare for an exhibition.

Keeping bonsai at exhibition quality, is supposed to weaken them.

What you should really ask is how many can actually design,
or are they just copying already done bonsai efforts.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai wrote:

I for one, would never even dream of looking over the shoulder of a sculptor and suggesting he alter the orientation of an appendage.

I normally will not have a problem with the orientation but when it comes to the dimensions then I am at doubts...  Mikey Buonarotti had to alter some of the dimensions on David based on comments and I guess this would apply for Leo da Vinci as well.  

Seriously now, Forums are public places to meet and discuss. The same applies for bonsai forums on web.   Crossing  swords of ideas and sharing emotions. Thats what it is here for.    If I dare to go public I should be ready and more than happy to get emotions of possible viewers.  Because bonsai is about emotions.  If there are no emotions then I did a bad job...

Or I am on a wrong place perhaps???

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:
What you should really ask is how many can actually design,
or are they just copying already done bonsai efforts.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Well, that is a good question, but one that answers itself when looking at what folks can or cannot do...
That becomes self-evident for each individual and is quite different from what I am curious about in this post

Still, nice to hear from you Khai and i hope all is well down there in Trinny !!!

Vlad wrote:

Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai wrote:

I for one, would never even dream of looking over the shoulder of a sculptor and suggesting he alter the orientation of an appendage.

I normally will not have a problem with the orientation but when it comes to the dimensions then I am at doubts...  Mikey Buonarotti had to alter some of the dimensions on David based on comments and I guess this would apply for Leo da Vinci as well.  

Seriously now, Forums are public places to meet and discuss. The same applies for bonsai forums on web.   Crossing  swords of ideas and sharing emotions. Thats what it is here for.    If I dare to go public I should be ready and more than happy to get emotions of possible viewers.  Because bonsai is about emotions.  If there are no emotions then I did a bad job...

Or I am on a wrong place perhaps???

ALL art involves emotion !!!
But would you feel comfortable offering your opinions directly to Leo or Mikey ?

Kevin, I dunno whether bonsai is an art. No chance to discuss this with me, though.

Regarding Mikey or Leo or anybody else: Presenting your opinions should not be about comfort. Why it should be different to say my opinion to you or to Leo or WP or...? I prefer to be consistent rather respectful. I wish I use a bit more of empathy sometimes.

Looking forward to see where you go with this...

I used to belong to a painting forum (wetcanvas if anyone is interested). The sub-forum I participated most in had a policy that critiques/criticisms were only
allowed if the poster specified that by writing something like "c&c requested". It worked pretty well for the most part, so that kind of set up is always an option.
Otherwise, I just assume that if I post something on a public forum, it is fair game for whatever people want to say (same thing for what others post). If a tree moves
someone enough to post a critique or suggestion for redesign or virt, that seems better than if it is so mundane that no one can be bothered to respond at all.

As for who should be qualified to comment...all I'll say is this. When I was painting and participating in art shows (real, not virtual) sometimes the most insightful
comments came from people who were not artists. Many times their comments can be disregarded but every so often there is a nugget worth saving. In my opinion,
same for bonsai. Just because someone has not produced good or great trees, doesn't mean they are not capable of making useful suggestions for your great tree

This question has come up periodically over the years. One attempt to sort it out came about years ago when the forum sections were modified... please see the home page which describes the forum for more info.

Members' Trees
This section is for threads about your own trees, such as bonsai tasks you’ve undertaken on your trees (e.g. defoliating, crown reduction, first styling, restyling, completed work), trees you’ve recently acquired/collected, your trees in autumn colours, etc. Please put requests for styling advice in the Bonsai Questions section; requests for tree identification go in the Bonsai Pests, Diseases and Tree/Plant Identification section and general discussions on artistic considerations in the Bonsai Observations Forum. Please note that trees posted in this forum are open to discussion/critique by other members.

Personal Space : Galleries
Please post one thread showcasing your trees with your Username as the title. Images posted here are not meant for discussion by others. For advice on a tree, post it to Bonsai Questions
Moderator: Moderators

coh wrote: As for who should be qualified to comment...all I'll say is this. When I was painting and participating in art shows (real, not virtual) sometimes the most insightful
comments came from people who were not artists. Many times their comments can be disregarded but every so often there is a nugget worth saving. In my opinion,
same for bonsai. Just because someone has not produced good or great trees, doesn't mean they are not capable of making useful suggestions for your great tree

I agree with this. Often someone who is a step back from the process is in a better place to see to see what familiarity with the subject might be hiding from the artist.  I am reminded of Nellie who was on here some years ago. In her quest for knowledge and understanding of Bonsai, she asked a lot of really pertinent questions and queried regularly why a particular artist was adopting a particular approach. She was in no way criticising people's work - merely trying to understand and/or get clarification when different folk offered up different advice.  

She seriously pissed off a couple of world-renowned artists who took her questions as criticism.

Dunno about anyone else but I found it great. Only by questioning what we do and the way we are doing it, will any art form ever develop.

All IMVHO of course. Along with the notion that if you think it to be the case, then be prepared to defend why you think the sun shines out of your **se (or **s if you are in America).

Kevin,

I have always been here, just not logged in.

I have also always treated Bonsai as a hobby. I find it
relaxing and aids in generating ideas for oil paintings.
By the way this my 39th year in Bonsai.

As a painter, I instinctively would not critique a tree.
As stated before.

To the general public -
The Psychology.
Achievements - is this what Bonsai is to you?

Do you have other achievements ?

If you know you are weak in Design.
Would you go to an Art Teacher ?
Fix your grown effort ?

We have a whole generation of Bonsai growers, down here who did not
know there was a back branch or a guideline trunk to height ratio.
I saw, and would not speak.
Ask someone. already proud of their effort to - fix it.

Is Bonsai craft or Art ?
And why ?

As was taught to me on ClayArt --------

what is the difference between art and craft - answer - $$$$$$$

So after the tools. pots and trees of course it is Art and no crritiques
will be entertained.

I don't sell, if I think you will love and look after a tree, I will
give it to you.

So unless you ask for a critique, in private, and I may not do it,
no, I offer no critiques,
But I will say, healthy tree.
Laters
Khaimraj

* Guest house almost done - wanna visit ?

Reviving good old times!
Hello everybody!

These are my thoughts regarding Kevin's question.
Given that Kevin referred to "sculptor" and "painter" in combination with Bonsai, can we assume that he considers Bonsai is art.
If so, then the bonsai tree as a piece of art is provoking emotions and sentiments to the viewer. And when the viewer expresses these emotions/sentiments I believe this is legitimate.

some interesting replies so far...
sorry i have been absent from my own query but "life" has suddenly become busy

I will reply more soon, but in the mean time, I would like to say that in my opinion (and this seemed to be questioned):

YES, BONSAI IS INDEED ART !!!

While a bonsai is in development it can be a strongly subjective artwork. Hearing different peoples view points is interesting and can be helpful. People critique and proffer suggestions to help in the development of a tree to become clearer in its expression.
It's easier to give and take criticism with a slowly developing work of art. The weather can always be blamed for slow completion!

Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai wrote:Just wanted to see others thoughts on something that I have been thinking about...

As I look at posts, here there and elsewhere, I feel conflicted in offering opinions on design.
(and only on design - everything else being based in horticulture, science and near-absolutes)

I for one, would never even dream of looking over the shoulder of a sculptor and suggesting he alter the orientation of an appendage. Nor would I suggest to a painter that I might like one brush stroke over another...

Why do those things seem OK when it comes to Bonsai ?
Or perhaps the question is, IS that OK when it comes to bonsai... ?



I am purposely leaving this open ended for discussion without offering what may be my "personal conclusion"  

Because here in America we are, most of us, hopeless beginners and always in need of criticism, suggestions, and confirmations. Though some of us have accredited ourselves by study in Japan, and other locations exotic, most of us are still home grown talents.

Because of this we are always willing if not anxious to insert ourselves into a discussion about someone else's work invited or not. We somehow feel justified in saying something about their work, even if we hate it when someone says something bad about our work. Is it OK?? Well, I guess it depends on how bold the bragging quality indicated, or how bad the blindness demonstrated becomes. Sometimes criticism comes from some sense of animus, jealousness, or stupidity. Sometimes criticism comes from a pedantic sense of my dog is better than your dog. It may not be OK but it is what it is, the nature of the beast.

History decides what is art.

Without a holographic image, the tree grows on, the design is lost,
it's alive.
Just enjoy your time together.
Until.
Khaimraj

John Quinn wrote:This question has come up periodically over the years. One attempt to sort it out came about years ago when the forum sections were modified... please see the home page which describes the forum for more info.

Members' Trees
This section is for threads about your own trees, such as bonsai tasks you’ve undertaken on your trees (e.g. defoliating, crown reduction, first styling, restyling, completed work), trees you’ve recently acquired/collected, your trees in autumn colours, etc. Please put requests for styling advice in the Bonsai Questions section; requests for tree identification go in the Bonsai Pests, Diseases and Tree/Plant Identification section and general discussions on artistic considerations in the Bonsai Observations Forum. Please note that trees posted in this forum are open to discussion/critique by other members.

Personal Space : Galleries
Please post one thread showcasing your trees with your Username as the title. Images posted here are not meant for discussion by others. For advice on a tree, post it to Bonsai Questions
Moderator: Moderators

thanks John... my question was more general in nature... whether it be here or some other blog or forum or physically looking over the shoulder of a well accepted "master"

Vance Wood wrote:Because here in America we are, most of us, hopeless beginners and always in need of criticism, suggestions, and confirmations.  Though some of us have accredited ourselves by study in Japan, and other locations exotic, most of us are still home grown talents.  

Because of this we are always willing if not anxious to insert ourselves into a discussion about someone else's work invited or not.  We somehow feel justified in saying something about their work, even if we hate it when someone says something bad about our work.  Is it OK??  Well, I guess it depends on how bold the bragging quality indicated, or how bad the blindness demonstrated becomes.  Sometimes criticism comes from some sense of animus,  jealousness, or stupidity.  Sometimes criticism comes from a pedantic sense of my dog is better than your dog.  It may not be OK but it is what it is, the nature of the beast.

Vance - I love your no B.S. take on things !

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:History decides what is art.

I find that to be a depressing statement for those of us who are:

A) Not yet "history"
B) enjoying making what they perceive as "art"

I also disagree as I believe it is the creator and the viewer who decides if something is art...
with the creator obviously intending it to be art and the viewer agreeing or not.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Just enjoy your time together.

Always !

But I feel that the discussion of this being art digresses from the original question.

I should have been clearer in the original post (and will amend it accordingly)

I should have specified that the recipient of the unsolicited opinions or suggestions being a generally accepted "bonsai master" or "sensei" or equivalent, and I realize that this greatly changes the brunt of my inquiry and I apologize for not being more specific in the original post.

A Critique is ok with me depending on how it is done. Constructive opinions are great, where opinions go wrong are when the they become personal and the person offerring the opinion attacks and demeans others.

I have noticed you can a take a tree somewhere to work on it and the next thing you know there is someone telling you what is wrong with your tree. How can this person know what is wrong with my tree if you do not know what am I trying to do with the tree in the first place?

A perfect example of this is Bjorn Bjornholm was asked to style a Limber Pine. Bjorn styled the tree in a Japanese style from the 50-60's and totally out of favour now. The owner of the tree was ok with this. The following year the owner of the tree asked a group to critique the tree. Most of the responses were to chop the tree way back, changing the style of the tree. The group was so quick to abandoned what Bjorn started. They simply did not even consider what Bjorn was trying to do with tree. Alas nothing was done to the tree.

I feel sorry for new artists. They get bombarded with different opinions all the time. They don't know what to do then. Here is a perfect example: New artist has a yamdori pine which needs to be re-potted. New artist mentor is a world re-known expert on yamadori pines and gives new artist advice on what to do. Another experienced yamadori collector offers different advice on what to do. New artist is now confused and asked what should they do? Both advisors were correct in what they were advising. My answer: Who is your mentor? Who has been collecting pines the longest? Who is internationally known for their pine knowledge? Who travels the country instructing? Who has trees in the National show every two years? Who has been practicing Bonsai the longest? Who has the best pine trees in their collection? The answer was to go with his mentors advice.

Bottom line critiques are ok if there done with constructive feed back. Perhaps the critiquer should ask what are you trying to do with the tree first and then offer some advice on how to achieve that goal if possible.

I personally never critique anyone's tree unless asked to do so.

One could wonder what the intent of the feedback given is. In many cases it is also a lack of understanding.

"To me it looks better with this branch removed. Why don't you remove it" -> "Removing the branch will create too big an open space which will never fill up. I do agree the rbanch is badly positioned".

Also, as bonsai, is an artform, one can have different views. I had a new member in my club come up to me telling me a branch from my tree should be removed. I looked at the tree. Had the lightbulb moment and clipped of a branch I had just spent 4 years growing out. The guy was shocked: I was just making conversation! Me: Yeah, and your input was correct, thank you.

No matter how big the artist: If you cannot discuss the direction taken, or the artistic choices made.. How are the little people going to learn?

Kevin, this is an interesting question and a pertinent one regarding a forum such as this. However, having reread your original post I feel that to some extent you are comparing apples with pears (so to speak).

You say that "I for one, would never even dream of looking over the shoulder of a sculptor and suggesting he alter the orientation of an appendage.". Really? Why? Surely it depends entirely on the context  

Fair enough if as your example implies you have some how barged into someone's studio uninvited, looked over their shoulder and said "you don't wanna do it like that, you wanna do it like this". That would indeed be very rude and I've no doubt that said sculptor would promptly show you the door and request that you keep your unsolicited opinions to yourself (to put it politely).

However, if said sculptor chose to post a picture of their partially completed work on a sculpture discussion forum would that be an equivalent situation? I don't think so.

What would be the point of a sculpture discussion forum if it wasn't to discuss sculpture and as sculpture is generally accepted to be an art form how much "discussion" of an actual piece of work can take place before the discussion becomes a subjective assessment of the works artistic merit? Not much I would suggest!

This then would become a "critique" but surely a critique is pointless if it is only positive. The people making the critique aren't being honest and the person who's work is critiqued won't learn anything!

Of course some people don't seem to understand the difference between constructive criticism and just being critical and can be plain rude. That's not acceptable but then again I have a suspicion that in life there are some people who only expose their work in public in the hope of soliciting uncritical praise and adoration. That's just egotistical!

Either way (and to bring it back to bonsai) I feel that if you post images of your work on a bonsai discussion forum then you are essentially soliciting other forum users opinions. Of course you are free to ignore them if you don't find them helpful.

Regards

Richard

PS. feel free to critique my critique of Kevin's post. It's only my opinion of course

Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai wrote:Just wanted to see others thoughts on something that I have been thinking about...

As I look at posts, here there and elsewhere, I feel conflicted in offering opinions on design.
(and only on design - everything else being based in horticulture, science and near-absolutes)

I for one, would never even dream of looking over the shoulder of a sculptor and suggesting he alter the orientation of an appendage. Nor would I suggest to a painter that I might like one brush stroke over another...

And I ask this in regards to the recipient of the unsolicited opinions or suggestions being a generally accepted "bonsai master" or "sensei" or equivalent

Why do those things seem OK when it comes to Bonsai ?
Or perhaps the question is, IS that OK when it comes to bonsai... ?




I am purposely leaving this open ended for discussion without offering what may be my "personal conclusion"  

Odd; I just answered a post with the same flavor about a Scots Pine. I have always thought that posting a tree on this forum, or any other forum for that matter leaves it Open to comment, otherwise why post it unless you are fishing for the OMG you are a wonderful artist I love the tree which I suppose the OP will not reject? I you don't want anyone to comment on the tree say so and we will all ignore it. This is kind of the direction this forum has taken over the last several years and the probable reason it's life is in doubt.

Vance try it from this angle.

The Bonsai situation has evolved,
At least 6 members are now international teachers - Jun for example.

The Indians have their own clubs and one member from here went onto
Photography,
Marriages and no time for Bonsai.
Facebook has an IBC.

Nellie travels and is seen in the East.

The tropical do get tired of the - everything grows all year long comments.

The Europeans are still here,

I have one old Trinidadian friend in South Africa, he prefers the club.

Plus. after the test peiod of 3 to 5 years of water. look after, there really
is not a great deal to master, if not exhibiting or a professional.

When I started Bonsai back in 79 / 80 or so, folk exhibited in cake baking
pans.Today, at least three clubs and more than enough teachers,
Plus IBC in the Back in Time Machine has archives,
Much useful information.

Time marches on.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Time marches on and the train rolls ever forward. This does not mean we have to get off, take our dollies and go home because someone pissed us off. I have been growing bonsai and trying to achieve a level of development that some may consider art. It is only important to me that I consider it art at least in my eyes. I have over the years become more comfortable in my own britches and do not covet another's pair of drawers and their assorted poop stains; and we all have them. As far as criticizing another's work I only look at a tree from the view of what would I do with it that would please me. Sometimes I can see a lot that I might do, sometimes I see a lot of work that would be a tragedy to add to or take away from. Over time I say little because generally people do not like to have the kings clothes outed publicly, it just hurts feelings and helps no one.