Elm Forest

I count nine, there's a little one to the right.

BobbyLane wrote:Bonsai enthusiasts the world over use carving to disguise, trunk chops, scars, rotten wood, decaying wood, saw cuts, chainsaw cuts etc etc on some occasions carving is used by many just because they like it or want to add some interest to an otherwise bland trunk, maybe you're using carving to divert the viewers eye from an imperfection on a trunk or an image. maybe they saw something in nature they wish to emulate, maybe they've used carving to enhance natural dead wood that was already present on a tree.
So its not just a UK thing, its all over the world.
You have no idea what you keep waffling on about.

Not wanting to start a shit-fight .. But I would like to add some thoughts to this.. I do agree in part that too much carving is happening. And yes, some of the worst offenders are in the UK, due to some very skilled carving artists such as will baddeley over there . I think it is a change in phylosophy of bonsai, and the idea of what makes great bonsai. To me, it is more then just the branch placement..

When I started reading up on bonsai, One of the main points for deciduous trees I found was the principle of creating trees with a perfect bark and trunkline, the exception being the odd uro. However, nowadays I see more carved dec. trees than non-carved. I feel that in a way takes away from the bonsai. Just getting a big trunk, carving it to taste and adding branches to it might be a quick way, but not a long-term route to take, imho; exceptions of course are there.

I do have some trees with broken bark & carved trunks, as they were created from straight-rod trees of several inches diameter. In a way, to me it is a sign of weakness: My weakness to not being able to wait untill a better suited specimen of the species comes along. However, I still prefer to see trees with a blemisch-free trunkline, where possible. And my growing-bed trees are aimed at that too. I am actively working on creating an old, fallen-over apple tree, with a hollow trunk. But I also realize that that is a tree for me, not for the next generation, as it will not be around for more than ~20 years.

leatherback wrote:

BobbyLane wrote:Bonsai enthusiasts the world over use carving to disguise, trunk chops, scars, rotten wood, decaying wood, saw cuts, chainsaw cuts etc etc on some occasions carving is used by many just because they like it or want to add some interest to an otherwise bland trunk, maybe you're using carving to divert the viewers eye from an imperfection on a trunk or an image. maybe they saw something in nature they wish to emulate, maybe they've used carving to enhance natural dead wood that was already present on a tree.
So its not just a UK thing, its all over the world.
You have no idea what you keep waffling on about.

Not wanting to start a shit-fight   .. But I would like to add some thoughts to this.. I do agree in part that too much carving is happening. And yes, some of the worst offenders are in the UK, due to some very skilled carving artists such as will baddeley over there . I think it is a change in phylosophy of bonsai, and the idea of what makes great bonsai. To me, it is more then just the branch placement..

When I started reading up on bonsai, One of the main points for deciduous trees I found was the principle of creating trees with a perfect bark and trunkline, the exception being the odd uro. However, nowadays I see more carved dec. trees than non-carved. I feel that in a way takes away from the bonsai. Just getting a big trunk, carving it to taste and adding branches to it might be a quick way, but not a long-term route to take, imho; exceptions of course are there.

I do have some trees with broken bark & carved trunks, as they were created from straight-rod trees of several inches diameter. In a way, to me it is a sign of weakness: My weakness to not being able to wait untill a better suited specimen of the species comes along. However, I still prefer to see trees with a blemisch-free trunkline, where possible. And my growing-bed trees are aimed at that too.  I am actively working on creating an old, fallen-over apple tree, with a hollow trunk. But I also realize that that is a tree for me, not for the next generation, as it will not be around for more than ~20 years.

This may be true in part, but i could just as well pull up many threads on here on extensive deadwood/carving work being carried out in italy, spain and portugal on olive trees....fair play to those guys though because they're just doing what they see around them, many Olives from that part of the world are hollow with deadwood. i dont believe or even think they are doing this because they think it makes great bonsai, they are doing it because they want to emulate something they saw in nature. i dont know Will myself, but from what ive seen of his work, it appears very natural, i think a lot of his trees are collected and he's enhanced the natural deadwood already present on the tree in many cases.

Personally ive never read up on 'bonsai' i get my inspiration from trees in nature and in nature not all trees have perfect bark, trunk lines and look elegant as you and Alain are saying. so maybe its a matter of taste? you just have an extreme dislike for the 'battered warrior' with a stumpy, stubby trunk and you prefer blemish free elegance, i personally like most types of trees in all forms, why would i limit my imagination to a specific type, when in nature there are no boundaries.
i know you dont like holes on deciduous Leatherback, i remember you posted a thread some time back of a Trident with inverse taper, when most had suggested carving could improve the ugly chop at the top of the trunk, you abrubtly disregarded this, saying you dont want any holes on your trident. but take a look around the woods and you will see even elegant trees with holes in them. its a natural process on deciduous, parts of the trees are prone to rot, broken branches leave holes. trunk splits caused by lightening or heavy branches falling away create hollows, etc...im sorry but i do not believe that emulating something you see around you or in nature, is taking away from bonsai, certainly not natural looking bonsai. again, take a walk through the forests and not all trunks will be blemish free.

[quote="BobbyLane"]

leatherback wrote:

This may be true in part, but i could just as well pull up many threads on here on extensive deadwood/carving work being carried out in italy, spain and portugal on olive trees....fair play to those guys though because they're just doing what they see around them, many Olives from that part of the world are hollow with deadwood.

OK, once again I must have been too blunt, but the examples you are giving are trees that grow in hot, dry environments like olive or junipers: there, it's a common feature of such species in such climates, if only because the wood is very hard and resistant to weathering.

Bot for deciduous trees, it's a different story: small wounds will callous over, big ones will rot and very often kill the tree in the end.

Personally ive never read up on 'bonsai' i get my inspiration from trees in nature and in nature not all trees have perfect bark, trunk lines and look elegant as you and Alain are saying. so maybe its a matter of taste? you just have an extreme dislike for the 'battered warrior' with a stumpy, stubby trunk and you prefer blemish free elegance, i personally like most types of trees in all forms, why would i limit my imagination to a specific type, when in nature there are no boundaries.
i know you dont like holes on deciduous Leatherback, i remember you posted a thread some time back of a Trident with inverse taper, when most had suggested carving could improve the ugly chop at the top of the trunk, you abrubtly disregarded this, saying you dont want any holes on your trident. but take a look around the woods and you will see even elegant trees with holes in them. its a natural process on deciduous, parts of the trees are prone to rot, broken branches leave holes. trunk splits caused by lightening or heavy branches falling away create hollows, etc...im sorry but i do not believe that emulating something you see around you or in nature, is taking away from bonsai, certainly not natural looking bonsai. again, take a walk through the forests and not all trunks will be blemish free.

Right, and so your look is attracted to a certain form of trees. I remember a discussion on "venerable" trees on a French forum, it actually looked like a hospital ward with terminally ill patients: maimed specimens with crutches and iron bands circling, etc. It's a vision of nature, but not the one I particularly want to emulate. But OK, you can find a few trees like that in nature.

The problem probably comes from the fact that, as has been said before, some very good bonsai enthusiasts in some parts of Europe are using wood carving as a way to mask big cuts that would otherwise take years to heal, in particular on collected privets.

But using this on all kinds of deciduous might be too systematic, as if it had become a fashion.

To me, one of the best examples of a limited, sensitive use of dead wood is the work of Marija Hajdic (I think that you will agree with me ) Here, the dead wood and scars are not an aim it itself:

http://www.animabonsai.com/

No hard feelings I hope

I think we've said all that we wanted to say now, have a nice weekend.

"The stones are placed so that the entire composition cannot be seen at once from the veranda. They are also arranged so that when looking at the garden from any angle (other than from above) only fourteen of the boulders are visible at one time. It is traditionally said that only through attaining enlightenment would one be able to view the fifteenth boulder."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ry%C5%8Dan-ji

AlainK wrote:

BobbyLane wrote:

leatherback wrote:

This may be true in part, but i could just as well pull up many threads on here on extensive deadwood/carving work being carried out in italy, spain and portugal on olive trees....fair play to those guys though because they're just doing what they see around them, many Olives from that part of the world are hollow with deadwood.

OK, once again I must have been too blunt, but the examples you are giving are trees that grow in hot, dry environments like olive or junipers: there, it's a common feature of such species in such climates, if only because the wood is very hard and resistant to weathering.

Bot for deciduous trees, it's a different story: small wounds will callous over, big ones will rot and very often kill the tree in the end.

Personally ive never read up on 'bonsai' i get my inspiration from trees in nature and in nature not all trees have perfect bark, trunk lines and look elegant as you and Alain are saying. so maybe its a matter of taste? you just have an extreme dislike for the 'battered warrior' with a stumpy, stubby trunk and you prefer blemish free elegance, i personally like most types of trees in all forms, why would i limit my imagination to a specific type, when in nature there are no boundaries.
i know you dont like holes on deciduous Leatherback, i remember you posted a thread some time back of a Trident with inverse taper, when most had suggested carving could improve the ugly chop at the top of the trunk, you abrubtly disregarded this, saying you dont want any holes on your trident. but take a look around the woods and you will see even elegant trees with holes in them. its a natural process on deciduous, parts of the trees are prone to rot, broken branches leave holes. trunk splits caused by lightening or heavy branches falling away create hollows, etc...im sorry but i do not believe that emulating something you see around you or in nature, is taking away from bonsai, certainly not natural looking bonsai. again, take a walk through the forests and not all trunks will be blemish free.

Right, and so your look is attracted to a certain form of trees. I remember a discussion on "venerable" trees on a French forum, it actually looked like a hospital ward with terminally ill patients: maimed specimens with crutches and iron bands circling, etc. It's a vision of nature, but not the one I particularly want to emulate. But OK, you can find a few trees like that in nature.

Thats the thing though, i dont have one 'look' i like many types of trees and forms. my taste isnt limited, so do not confuse me with yourself.    


The problem probably comes from the fact that, as has been said before, some very good bonsai enthusiasts in some parts of Europe are using wood carving as a way to mask big cuts that would otherwise take years to heal, in particular on collected privets.

Enthusiasts all over the world use carving to mask big cuts, this is a fact

But using this on all kinds of deciduous might be too systematic, as if it had become a fashion.

I agree, some woods are harder than others, some deciduous dont heal well or respond well to carving, you dont need to tell me this...of course you can go out and find trees with perfect taper and unblemished trunks, some folks have great access to this type of material, or pay handsomely for it, or they grow it from seed/cuttings etc we all know this. you say nothing, i dont already know


To me, one of the best examples of a limited, sensitive use of dead wood is the work of Marija Hajdic (I think that you will agree with me   ) Here, the dead wood and scars are not an aim it itself:

http://www.animabonsai.com/

Ive seen all of her work and have a huge admiration for the material coming from that region, a lot of it is quite exemplary upon collection and they have then spent many years in training to get to this level. some of the Carpinus O develop very quickly, they are very fortunate to have access to such outstanding material. again....you tell me nothing i dont already know

No hard feelings I hope

I think we've said all that we wanted to say now, have a nice weekend.

I take no offence, i know what im talking about and stand by everything ive said in previous posts.  

"The stones are placed so that the entire composition cannot be seen at once from the veranda. They are also arranged so that when looking at the garden from any angle (other than from above) only fourteen of the boulders are visible at one time. It is traditionally said that only through attaining enlightenment would one be able to view the fifteenth boulder."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ry%C5%8Dan-ji

So to sum up..............when i go out in the woods in England, this is what i see, i see the majestic, but i also see the old warrior and it inspires me, they ALL inspire me and i want a piece of them all in my collection

I should further add, i love to see the old ancient olive trees and have many images on my hard drive, ive been to greece and seen them in the flesh too. although i mentioned extensive carving being done on Olives, im not a fan of this type of image, because the ones ive seen and admire look like this







and im currently training an Olive stump that will hopefully be in this image and yeh it will have some hollowing done to it, because thats what i like and its a common feature of ancient Olive trees in nature


Nor am i fond of the extensive carving done on junipers and tbh im not a fan of conifers at all, i have one Yew tree. whenever i see the junipers with extensive deadwood i scroll down quickly in anticipation of the deciduous, those are just not of my taste, maybe because i dont see them around here.
So yeah i understand that deadwood on deciduous should be practiced with caution, it also shouldnt be the main attraction of the tree although in some cases it will be.
so to sum up, im not inspired by extensive deadwood done on bonsai, i agree it can be overdone....used right and maybe with some subtlety it can have a great effect though, not every tree needs to have it. the artistic effect comes in knowing when and when not to apply certain techniques and how much...this comes in time and some folks are very good at it, 4 years in bonsai has taught me many things. mistakes will be made along the line, all part of the curve.

BobbyLane wrote: (...)
so to sum up, im not inspired by extensive deadwood done on bonsai, i agree it can be overdone....used right and maybe with some subtlety it can have a great effect though, not every tree needs to have it. the artistic effect comes in knowing when and when not to apply certain techniques and this comes in time, 4 years in bonsai has taught me many things. mistakes will be made along the line, all part of the curve.

Well, actually, that was a good discussion, even if I started it in an awkward way.

All being considered, I think we agree on the essential, we disagree on details that are the "tree that hides the forest" -which is the french equivalent of a saying you also have. We tend to focus on the details we like and sometimes forget about the whole picture.

Another bl**dy tempest in a glass of water (another different cultural point of view: here, when we don't drink wine, we drink water )

Also -and this is no toadyism- I thought that you had a much longer experience in bonsai. I began keeping trees in pots nearly 20 years ago, but began to understand the basics only some 10 years ago, when I joined a club. So for a 4-yr-old, you're pretty good, son, keep up the good work!

And above all, have fun doing what you're doing.

A very heartfelt thanks for the jaw dropping photos of the ancient olives.