Penjing or Saikei ???

[Guest]

Juniper Shimpaku,
Juniper Procumbens Nana
Babys Tears
Chinese Ying Rock

19"W x 14"D x 12"H

[DougB]

Saikei. No mudmen or objects. ??? Can someone provide a brief explanation of the difference between the 3 main styles of penjing and Japanese Saikei????

[JimLewis]

Penjing is a more all-encompassing (and Chinese) term.  It includes single trees (that we and the Japanese would call "bonsai"), as well as landscapes with trees  -- both with or without figurines -- that the Japanese call seikei.  The Vietnamese call the landscapes hon non bo.

There are several books on the subject; the most recent tend to show penjing on flat marble trays, popularized in this country by Zhao Qingquan, author of Penjing: Worlds of Wonderment.  These are stunningly beautiful, and widely ( too widely?) copied and imitated.  

http://www.chinesegardenscene.com/799/83401.html lists other Chinese penjing artists.

Treeless landscapes are included with penjing, as I understand it, but are called "bonkei" in Japan and not widely done.  

I saw my first penjing in Hong Kong back in the mid 1950s.  None that I recall were on marble slabs.  All were in ceramic pots and shallow trays.  I have Hu Yunha's Penjing: The Chinese Art of Miniature Gardens from way back in 1982.  It shows more variety in types of penjing (though has more single-tree penjing than most books these days) and suggestions on the design of landscape compositions themselves.  Illustrated by photos and lovely ink brush paintings.  



There's a pretty good discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penjing

[Leo Schordje]

tray landscape

you are in Michigan, the trees have a USA style look to them, call it a tray landscape and nobody can argue with you.

If your tress were styled to Japanese sensibilities - call it Saikei - this is way beyond just no mud men.

If your trees were styled to Chinese sensibilities - call it Penjing. Again, this goes way beyond just adding a mud man.


few of us USA born and raised citizens really grasp the complex artistic sensibilities of these other cultures, but we do understand our own. Go for a tray landscape, you will be better able to evaluate your own work.

[JimLewis]

I've two Penjing/saikei now -- a desert landscape (juniper and Crassulaceae):



And a mountain top scene (juniper and cotoneaster):



I've changed from a slab to a pot on the mountain scene, but I haven't photographed it yet and don't feel up to it today.  This is it from last year.

I doubt that I'll do any more of these. They're a bit of work and they are heavier than I'm up to handling these days.

[Guest]

Thank you all for the comments it is appreciated.

I've only started to shape, cut, prune, twist, torture, deform  the Shimpaku on the left side of the Tray, I'm satisfied with the general tree placement relative to the Ying rock and perspective and now the real artistic, esthetic part begins.

The Procumbens Nana or the right side will also need some adjustments but not as much.

I have rearranged the trees on both sides several times to arrive at what my mind perceives as a natural setting and it still remains subjective.

I will post new pictures when I am finished.

Jim I love your Mountain top Juniper setting with the deadwood...looking forward to the Pot pictures...

Leo thank you for you interpretation of my Tray Landscape, I think it fits, however I am going to try and make it a Saikei in the style of Kawamoto... his work is my inspiration.

Chuck

[JimLewis]

Here it is in its "new" pot:

[Precarious]

The dead trunk now looks blackened near the top. Purposeful? If so, how did you accomplish it. I like the effect.

[JimLewis]

Black marking pen and a rag to smooth it out.

[Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai]

hey jim... is that deadwood branch poking up from the ground in the last picture taken from the deadwood tree and placed there ?
(it looks like the branch shown in the earlier pics and missing from the latter)

to my eye, it seems like (in general) the whole scene would benefit from a bit longer tray area to the right of where the end of the main tree is (if you were to drop a plumb line down from the tip)

but other than that i really dig this one...
reminds me of southwestern wisconsin...
lots of craggy bluffs near the missississississippi river

[JimLewis]

Good eye, Kevin.  The stump is quite rotten and is shedding parts.  I like it better here than I did on the stump.  lt'll need a new stump in 2-3 years -- but by then is probably will be someone else's responsibility. <g>

As for the pot length, I had it on a larger slab, and thought it looked very ordinary.  The idea is a mountaintop and everything dropping off around it.  Maybe no one else sees it, though. <?>

I may have this one (and the desert landscape?) at the Carolina Bonsai Expo next month.  Depends on what the club decides.

(I'm moving this up to bonsai discussion.)

[Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai]

right on... i'll look frwrd to some pics as i will be a few weeks late to see any of it in person.

[Guest]

My Saikei or Tray Landscape of Shimpaku and Procumbens is now Pruned out, Bonsaied & ready to exhibit...

I call it  "Mountain Junipers in Washed-out Small Ravine" it is 19" x 14" x 12H"...

I used a picture of Himalayas Mountain scene for a backdrop to enhance the photos...

I keep it on a Lazy Susanne Turntable for 360 degree viewing...

I would appreciate any comments on its Worthiness to Exhibit...Pro & Con.

[JimLewis]

Your "front" is definitely the Front, though.

Nice job, BUT (as usual) . . .

I'd like to see some movement wired into the trunks of the tiny trees on both sides. As is, they just look like sticks jammed into the soil, with topknots, and the scene would look better in a shallower and slightly wider pot. I DO understand the You-Use-What-You-Have situation.

[DreadyKGB]

I agree with Jim somewhat. I think that the tree coming out of the rocks in the ravine should be wired with some more movement and brought down quite a bit. It is currently the tallest tree but in terms of the scene should have faced the most struggle. That is also the main focal point of the composition so work to create more interesting movement in that tree to accentuate its struggles.

All in all though I feel that it is a nice start. The overall idea is well laid out, now its a matter of working the trees to be as compelling as the stones. I have a planting that is in the same state.

Todd

[Leo Schordje]

I like your placement of the trees and rocks. The landscape is nicely composed. I can imagine I've been there, somewhere in Colorado maybe.

The comments about the trees needing more training, wiring for movement & growth, which means more time is correct. Particularly the tallest tree, it is not quite up to the job its position is demanding of it. The tallest tree is nicely in scale with the other trees, just needs more movement. I wager, 2 to 5 years of wire, pruning, ramification and growth, working on all the trees, then this composition will be exhibition ready. Perhaps by then you will find a slightly larger, shallower pot.

It is certainly good enough right now, as it is, to bring it to display at your local club shows, your placements placement of the trees and rocks is very good. It could be displayed in any club show, but to win ribbons or be accepted at a juried show, it needs another 3 to 5 years of wiring, pruning and growth.

[DougB]

Hey guys are we letting our "bonsai" mentality influence what we see? If I remember correctly traditional/classic penjig was strictly a cut and grow with no wiring. Should we be looking at this as a traditional penjig?

[Guest]

Thank you Jim, Todd, Doug, and especially Leo for the succinct commentary and advice on my Saikei, Penjing...
It is exactly the kind of info I was looking for and coming from the experienced , experts it is truly appreciated...

My tallest Shimpaku, coming out of the top of the Ying rock pose's a wiring problem in that there is not really enough trunk to work with and still accomplish the canopy placement I want.....

I am going to experiment by adding a smaller tree to come up and fill some of the void between the base of the trunk and bottom of the canopy....

Deception but possibly curing a deficiency...

I will also begin looking for a wider, deeper, shallower pot...

Thanks again for all the excellent, helpful advice...

Onward...

Chuck

[Guest]

OK, I've tried to perform all the advice moves suggested to me by our experts and here they are, please comment ...

I'm going to show the first 3 pictures as Comparison photos as I have progessed along then 4 following pictures of the "Close to Final"...

Original work...




2nd Version of Project...



3rd and near final version...



These pictures  are of 360 degree viewing...










OK folks...all done with this project, moving on to other projects now...

Chuck

[Precarious]

Very pleasing.

[Neli]

Sorry! No perspective, but beautiful rock arrangement

[Guest]

Sorry! No perspective, but beautiful rock arrangement

Neli, I changed the Perspective, How do you like this one ????

[Neli]

Perspective...to be good you need to have different sizes trees...with the biggest in front....and smaller ones behind and up hill.

[Guest]

Neli, let me get Off Topic for a second...Bonsai is essentially a singular Art Form....Bonsai as a catch phrase is Evolving and in a lot of ways Morphing into Saikei, Penjing, Hobbitton, Fairy Gardening, Tray Landscaping....

As in most all Art... Beauty, Perception, Desireability, and other adjectives  are in the Eye of the Beholder...

I appreciate your comments being a trained Bonsai Artist with credential...

Myself, I Garden, Create, Experiment, Enjoy creating Tray Landscape, I call it that because it is not even remotely connected to True Bonsai Art...however often gets caught up, inaccurately,  in the Vernacular of Bonsai...

Thank you again for your comments

Chuck

PS Here is an example of Tray Landscape that might be refered to as Bonsai ???
a little 8"x7"x7" Desktop or table top Indoor "Lady Palm" that I made for my wife's work desk...

[Neli]

Darling,
The only reason I am mentioning perspective is because I thought you want to blend your composition with the background...For me bonsai is for fun...but I am a bit of a perfectionist...so I take every thing too far,,,Sorry!
Are you having fun? That is what matters. You have to like it first...not me! Good luck Darling.
I like your wife;s composition a lot.

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