defining bonsai vs penjing vs mambonsai vs saikei vs art

i have been perusing a great deal of this forum since joining it not long ago and wanted to throw out my (not so) humble opinion on some of the discussion that seems pervasive in this art form regarding how to define what we do in terms of ancient oriental ways of creating art with trees... (please keep in mind that i am a 3 year novice, but with some good work behind me, leading up to even more good work to come - i hope)

i came into this endeavor from an art background of various mediums, and i have always found that discussions over what something is or is not detract from the enjoyment of the piece, whether it be a painting, a sculpture, music, or tree/trees on/in pots/trays/rocks etc...

i dont think there is such a thing as an all-inclusive definition of any piece of art that does not in some way detract from the piece by the very act of defining it... (i.e "thats not bonsai, thats penjing !" while it could incorporate elements of both)

of course there are objects that are very definitive; apples, the moon, a blade of grass, but when art begins to blur the lines between recognized "styles" or "disciplines", it should be allowed to and appreciated for exactly that...

which is why i coined the term "Arbor Arts" to encompass what i/we do with trees and the mediums on/in which we choose to create our art.

after all, i am a north american of european, not oriental, descent and while i am grateful to those who came before us for their inspiring works of art, i believe we need to find our own way in this truly remarkable art form...
 



alrighty then...
someone is now welcome to give this soap-box a good swift kick and get me outta here...  

kevin

  

couldnt have said it better myself, fiona !!!  

hope all is well on your side of the pond.

well put. sometimes when I look at trees from other/professional people I feel like such a newbie and that maybe im not picking the right starter material, or im not picking the right style for the tree, or im just not doing it right. but then I think- "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder". I want MY trees to look how I want. I'm mainly looking for how to keep my tree alive and how to miniaturize a tree. I think as long as my tree is alive and fairly happy- im happy. I don't need lessons, lectures, or leisurely opinions. On a side note I don't really get the concept of what a 'good' display is and what a 'not so good' display is. accent plants, scrolls, the 'right' pot... eh. GO TREES!

Oh, fer Pete's sake!

hey jim !
      

kitdiot wrote:well put. sometimes when I look at trees from other/professional people I feel like such a newbie and that maybe im not picking the right starter material, or im not picking the right style for the tree, or im just not doing it right. but then I think- "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder". I want MY trees to look how I want. I'm mainly looking for how to keep my tree alive and how to miniaturize a tree. I think as long as my tree is alive and fairly happy- im happy. I don't need lessons, lectures, or leisurely opinions. On a side note I don't really get the concept of what a 'good' display is and what a 'not so good' display is. accent plants, scrolls, the 'right' pot... eh. GO TREES!

actually i believe that knowledge about what we are doing is important which is why after 3 years in i am now taking bonsai novice classes and plan to continue with intermediate and advanced classes, along with working with visiting artists when i can (like Arthur Joura on june 1st !!!)

but if you want to be the only "beholder" eye-balling the beauty, then self satisfaction is all you need !!!
(either way that should be the second consideration, the first of course being the well-being of the tree)

i think it was ghandi who said: live like you will die tomorrow, but learn like you will live forever.

btw - what part of wisco are you from ?

fiona wrote:   

Ahahhaahahahhahhaah I just love Fiona!!!!

Bonsai related definitions ( style, size, display etc.) have nothing to do with the enjoyment of the art. They have to do with standards that are based on organizational values ( exhibit - sections ) or educational properties ( traditional styles, literature). It's like furniture and furnishings in a house. Place a refrigerator in the bedroom and you will have to do some major explanation.   

Sure you can enjoy whatever you want, when you want it and where you want it. Once you place your object in a certain setting, it becomes art. I'd say that anything can be "art". It all depends how you present it. Now whether it is good art or not, that's another question.

Best,
Dorothy

Place a refrigerator in the bedroom and you will have to do some major explanation.

That's simple: That is where the beer is.

BEFOREfiona wrote:





 

AFTER




 

JimLewis wrote:

Place a refrigerator in the bedroom and you will have to do some major explanation.

That's simple:  That is where the beer is.  

Cheers!   

-Dorothy

Hey June, Yokohama is still making tires..?   

-Dorothy

Dorothy,
this is a classic antique container, Not being produced anymore. Can't you see the patina mark? I'll have this pot put in a bidding of antique pots... place your bids. hehe
regards,
jun

Nice one, Jun.

But it still reinforces my point precisely that whatever you do with it or whatever you call it or however many times you reinvent it, a wheel remains a wheel.   

hey dorothy - were you "tsk-ing" me in your reply subject line ?   

nonetheless good reply and makes sense...
i have displayed in bonsai shows and in that context it is the setting that should be adhered to...

also when explaining to others what i do, the term "bonsai" is inevitable due to its universal usage...
of course that doesnt stop them from saying "thats not a bonsai" when looking at an elm or a maple as most folks associate pines/juniper with "bonsai" at which point the whole "tree in pot" spiel comes out...  

and fiona... i dig what you said about the wheel... so true
and jim weird how i never have to explain why i have a fridge in the studio    
lastly jun: from what i have seen of your work, you could jam a stick in a yam and somehow make it look good !

btw i was working on something very unusual last nite    
that i will be posting up maybe next week

im from near eau Claire.

cool... beautiful up that a-away
seems like a good area for tree collecting too

whoops -   
sorry - i meant yamadori