tamarind propagation from seed

i have a few questions about tamarind propagation for the many tropical members here

i've just planted a few hundred seeds and expect them to pop up soon. i want to try several experiments around the idea of growing several seedlings close together then when they are 6-12" tall, twist them together into a fatter trunk with plenty of movement. i don't expect them to fuse together like ficus, but since they will be wrapped around each other they will have no choice but to grow up together and will hopefuly produce an interesting looking trunk. i'm curious to know if anyone has tried this and how did it work out?

in some of the pots i've just put a couple of seeds and will thin out and let the best one grow individually and will wire them into crazy shapes as soon as practical. but as noted already in several tamarind threads, seedlings don't make low branches and lopping the top off a seedling isn't really an option since it will almost certainly die. here's one that just spontaneously poped up in my garden:



what's the trick to getting low branches? thread grafting into a fatter truck seems like one option, maybe there are others?

thx steve

Hi  

Getting lower branches are make easy by : when them trunk are big enough, cut it back hard and defoliages all.

Regards'
Pongsatorn.K

pongsatorn.k wrote:Hi  

Getting lower branches are make easy by : when them trunk are big enough, cut it back hard and defoliages all.

Regards'
Pongsatorn.K

thanks. when you cut it back, do you cut above the branches or do you just cut it down to a trunk only?

for example, suppose you had a 2-3cm trunk on a 1m tall tree and the first branch was about 30cm up like in this photo, where would you cut it?

Steve,

try this, when the seed sprouts, and is forming or has formed the first pair of leaves, cut about 1 to 1/2 " [ 2.5 cm to 1.25 cm ] under the cotyledons, then dip into a rooting hormone [ may do it without any rooting hormone as well.]
Use something to make a hole in a sterile soil mix and put the cutting into the hole.
You should roots in about 3 weeks or so.

I got the idea from the Japanese and how they treat Japanese Black pine seedlings, for better roots.

I wanted to see if one could have mame' tamarinds.

Not sure about wrapping tamarinds, since they go through three stages of exterior bark, [1] the brown featureless, comes off in strips bark, [2] the furrowed and looks like a pine bark and [3] the flaking bark of a 8 to 10 year old Tamarind that has been actively growing.
Wrapping might cause physical problems?

Would you like an image of a seedling done as I explained above?

Normally the cotyledon zone will shoot new branches if you cut down to that zone say 15 to 18 cm, above the soil level.

Please try for the old age buttress formation, it is more impressive that Japanese Black pine wannabe, radial root distribution.
It occurs around 10 years down the road.
Flowering should start after 8 to 10 years.

Look for the Tamarind that has a single seed pod to the three seed pod. On a say 61 to 76 cm tree, it is most effective.
I lucked out with my eldest from seedling flowers heavily on long stems and produces a one seed per pod, which can be left here and there like decoration.
It is however a sour old time Tamarind from India [ brought over probably in 1870 or so .]

Tamarind is a big favourite of mine, and I have to control myself, otherwise I would grow nothing but Tamarinds and Japanese Black pines [ from seed, trees cannot be imported - ever.]
Enjoy yourself.
Khaimraj

thanks Khaimraj for the very detailed reply. it took me a while to read and i hope understand all that.

so on the first paragraph you say cut below the cotyledons, that's the first set of leaves right. then plant the cuttings. what about the root part that left after the cut? will that grow or die? sounds like it will likely die.

yes, i would really love to see some pictures of some tamarind seedlings prepared this way, thanks, steve

Okay Steve,

I hope this helps.
Khaimraj

Here we go.

[1] As I explained, the speed of a Tamarind's growth - this one is about 5" [12.5 cm ] at the base and about 30" [ 76 cm tall ]
from a three leaf seedling and just about 33 years old.
So I have done the big tree. Presently cut down to fit into a bonsai pot and being harmonised, you may see it next year when I defoliate it. Flowers and has had pods.
Fed on it's own leaves and branches, just placed under the tree to rot. Yes, it is also fed on inorganic fertiliser.




[2] These are samples of the cut I explained 1" to 1/2 " [ 2.5 to 1.25 cm ] under the cotyledons.





[3] An example of a low branch





[4] Another example from seed of a cut down. Here I will focus on just healing the cut and some bringing the branches into proportion. Note the leaves etc. being fed back into the soil.Working towards a 3" [ 7.5 cm ] trunk and maybe a 15 to 18" [ 38 to 46 cm ] height.






[5] An example of a colander grown tree







[6] Another grown from seed and this is the one the airlayer was taken from






]7] The back with the cut






[8] Just to show off. The pot is glazed but made from sand and bonded with a home made glass frit. This is it's 4th year or so of use, and no decay.

thanks again, great photos.

i'm waiting for my seeds to germinate at the moment and will try your method. so the cutting i should make while the tree is very young right? when i have the first set of leaves i'll post some pics.

what soil mix would you use in the first growth stage? i assume you just want fast wild growth at the start so i'm thinking mostly potting soil with some sand and gravel mixed in for drainage

PS, do you make your own pots? i make mine from cement, i posted a video on youtube about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ6AMu3x13A

Steve,

I use a mix of crushed red earthenware brick [ hollow clay blocks for building in the tropics ], builder's gravel [ we call it sharp sand - quartz / silica and I can get it already sized in bags ] and compost.

Particle size -> [ ] - 5 to 6 mm

Soil has to be freely draining and the red brick holds water as it is porous, and is also moisture retaining. Starting point is 1/3 by 1/3 by 1/3 [ by volume ]

This house I live in came with troughs all around and they are just about 14 " [ 36 cm ] deep and with lengths of 10' [ around 3m ] and 16" [ 40.5 cm ] wide.
If I need to I also have 55 US gallon black barrels cut into thirds.
I use a coarser soil [ around 1/2 " + { 15 cm ] for the barrels, but the troughs already had a freely draining loam.

I was trained as potter [ I don't sell ] since I was 16 years old or so, and my favourite body is Egyptian Paste / Paste bodies , designed for pratical use. I also make my own frits and glazes from oxides.
I can also use cement [ moulds ] to make bonsai pots.

Yes, I know you can make beautiful bonsai pots as well, been reading and watching.

You should try for the 3" [ 7.5 cm ] trunk diameters, remember to give the seedlings enough space, or you will end up with only 1" [ 2.5 cm ] or less per year.
Later.
Khaimraj

p.s Please keep the group up to date on your work.

Try some fukien teas / sagretias and serissas as well.

thanks again. John also told me about the crushed red brick idea which i like but i'm not sure of an easy way to crush large amounts to consistent size. i'm thinking some kind of roller system like a smaller versions of the ones they use in commercial stone quarries. i'm looking for something with 2 steel rollers, haven't found it yet

actually i think i have some fukien trees already, i just didn't know what it was. many people use them for hedges around here and they seem to propagate be spreading the roots so i've been pulling a few up by the roots and planing them. they do have a really nice small, deep green leaf and interesting trunk

Steve,

my crushed brick comes from the brick factory. Down here they re-use the deformed bricks by passing them through a crusher. All I have to do is sit and sift. It is a very fast situation, and I get enough material in 2 hours to last for a year. That's about 6 buckets, you know the ones used for carrying cement when building [ about say 3 gallons of water, would be US gallons, don't know what it would be in UK gallons.]

If you can get the blocks, you can always ask a gravel crushing factory if they would do it for you. I am however hoping that you have a brick factory somewhere near you.

Trinidad may be a small island, but for whatever reason it is abundant in materials for construction and power, we also have Lake Tai Wu, type limestone, but sadly most of the stuff is under 30' [ 10 m's ] of sea water.
The island is also a powerhouse for landscape features, a painter's paradise, just no real deserts, mind you we do have large quarry zones. Which is why I never left for Europe, or seriously thought about living abroad, though I love the UK and Italia.

Fukien teas grow easily from roots and large old stumps. You can focus on personality, and get beautiful efforts in 3 to 5 years. The older mature wood is rot resistant [ as I mentioned to Jun ] and there are three sizes of leaf, all are useful.
The smallest leaf type has carnelian coloured berries, and the larger leaf is more plain orange.
So if you need something to satisfy the pruner in you, this shrub will do it.
You can work with 5" [ 12.5 cm ] trunks if you like large bonsai.

Same goes for the Southern Chinese elm, and if you can find them Sageretia t.
These plants will give you a great sense of achievement, and are impressive as bonsai. Try grow and clip [ Ling Nan ] as opposed to wiring, they all grow too fast to bother with wires.
Have a great time.
Khaimraj

hi Khaimraj, here are my tamarinds after about 1 weeks from planting, these things are FAST!



should i cut now or wait a while?

thanks, steve

Steve,

as long as you don't mind losing a few Tamarinds, with the learning experience, you can start now.

Try cutting 2.5 cm or 1.25 cm under the cotyledon, and dipping in rooting hormone. Try a few with no rooting hormone as well, see if it works.
Place in bright light or dappled shade or morning sun.
Best of growing.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Steve,

as long as you don't mind losing a few Tamarinds, with the learning experience, you can start now.

Try cutting 2.5 cm or 1.25 cm under the cotyledon, and dipping in rooting hormone. Try a few with no rooting hormone as well, see if it works.
Place in bright light or dappled shade or morning sun.
Best of growing.
Khaimraj

i'm not sure what the cotyledon is on this seeding. is it the seed casings or the lowest leaves?

i don't mind loosing some, i have hundreds of them and not enough space to plant them all