Fooled by Tanuki

Jun,
Irrespective of my time with trees I am still growing thru the inputs of beginner to master alike, it's a poor man who cannot learn. As you have made clear I am not known or respected enough to warrant a cordial reply or in the case of the penjing thread a reply at all.

I have no need to prove myself nor seek acclaim & world recognition hence why you will not see much of my work or any of my face here. My journey with trees has been a personal one and I have met Lindsay Farr in his garden at Hawthorne only once, many years ago, he has never visited my own. I respect & admire his work, knowledge & continuing input into furthering the art of little trees worldwide and I find it highly distatsteful that you feel the need to bring yet another respected member of the community into a discussion they have not been a party to.

I neither like nor dislike tanuki only respect any artist who can fool the 'knowing' such as the Kokufu winning Juniper posted by William Valavanis earlier in this thread.
Matt

Matt,
we discussed important matters.

regards,
jun

Jun,
So you are saying it is ok to make public a private conversation?
Apart from yourself, I see no other here on IBC or any other venue who feels the need to indulge in the practice.
I make no assumptions tho perhaps others are not as I.
Matt

MattA wrote:Jun,
So you are saying it is ok to make public a private conversation?
Apart from yourself, I see no other here on IBC or any other venue who feels the need to indulge in the practice.
I make no assumptions tho perhaps others are not as I.
Matt

You can send me PM if you wish to continue.

regards,
jun:suspect: 

Enjoy your thread Jun and whatever else you hope to gain from it & your time here on IBC.

I have posed several questions to you over time & every time you ignore, deflect or go on the attack so I shall refrain from all future communication...

MattA wrote:Enjoy your thread Jun and whatever else you hope to gain from it & your time here on IBC.

I have posed several questions to you over time & every time you ignore, deflect or go on the attack so I shall refrain from all future communication...

Thanks Matt!
again send me PM...

regards,
jun

Instant tanuki are created by attaching flowers or fruits or deadwood to trees being shown in exhibits.

That's a VERY broad definition, one I doubt many would accept.  It is fairly common to affix fruits to plants -- quince as an example -- at shows, but that's not defined as tanuki, nor is simply attaching a jin on a tree -- as in replacing one that broke off.  

Attaching a tree to a complicated deadwood is not an instant process, but it is "tanuki" in the bonsai world.

Just FYI:

"Noun

"tanuki (plural tanuki or tanukis)

   "1.  the raccoon dog, Nyctereutes procyonoides
   "2. (Japanese mythology) the tanuki regarded as a shapeshifter, also renowned for its enormous scrotum."

S

Thanks Matt for the PM,

I deleted/edited some of the post/reply I made to you, in the name of friendship... hehehe!  

regards,
jun

jun wrote:Thanks Matt for the PM,

I deleted/edited some of the post/reply I made to you, in the name of friendship... hehehe!  

regards,
jun

I hope you get whatever it is you seek from this thread & IBC in general.

My garden calls....

I check IBC daily for informative and inspirational threads. This is not one of them, yet every time for the last while it's been at the top of 'not read' list.
I have my own views and biases of what I consider is/or what is not tanuki, and the validity of each techniques. I think most others do as well and this thread hasn't confirmed or challenged my view at all.
Please keep the drama to PM's. My wife generates enough. ;-)

I learned a great deal out of this thread, even from the nasty bit of exchanges. The diversity on the mentality and preferences show out of some of the aged experienced bonsai masters, budding younger talents and as well as long time "bonsai" keepers who can't somehow grasp some of the resounding bonsai principles that differentiates it from other art forms-authenticity and patience. It also reminds me that most of the time the ones who have criticisms and a lot to say but lacking in substance are mostly the ones with less actual contribution (bonsai quality). I hope this negativity would not discourage or lessen the activity of seasoned bonsai artists in this forum .  It is downright obvious that this thread is directed more to masters and experienced artists who have participated in competitions and been more exposed with the bonsai world. But I would just throw it out there, tanuki for me is a means to a shortcut and should have a different category in bonsai exhibits and competitions. It would seem like an insult if a tanuki would be compared on a level to that of truly aged bonsai tree.

Cheers!
sayotefries

WoW! Please calm down and be nice. That IMO, was a bit out of line.

It is NOT against the law (bonsai law, or otherwise) for people to disagree. It would be nice if they did so politely, but that may be too much to ask.

Tanuki must be one of the least important aspects of bonsai. And as I've said before I don't understand why people get so messy about it. If you like 'em you like 'em. If you don't you don't, and if -- like me -- you don't care . . . Have I done one? Yes. Have I done two? No. Do I still have it? Yes. Do I show it? No.

We have devoted 1000% more words and megabytes to this discussion than it is worth. We must have something else to blather about.

phew ! I was first to respond to the thread and now having re-visited and actually Readevery reply since I may end up being on of the last to comment.

Jun is right in that a very small minority have actually contributed their observation and opinion on what is and what isnt acceptable in show level bonsai, and in what makes a tanuki - I gave many examples of bonsai manipulation and all the horticulturally time consuming and skillfull techniques I mentioned have been mostly ingored so they must be deemed all right ? it seems that the true objection is last minute fake improvements that require nothing more than the skill of a model maker in the days preceding the judging process - on this point i agree totally, i would feel upset that judges would turn a blind eye to blatantly fake attachments all over a tree too.

Jun, you have conducted the thread very professionally and remained cool and clear in your replies but you imply of great bonsai trees in existence with hidden tanuki histories.....as you were willing to start the thread you should be willing to show us the pictures rather than just tempt.....do you mean a kimura tree or another skilled artist that has skills far beyond many bonsai growers alive or dead? - if you do decide to define the trees you mean can you show they were entered into a contest and deprived 'pure' trees of a prize?? to just make a fake tree does not fit this discussion at all, only to lie in the entry process to a major competition - the time is now for you to define and prove your claims please

Bills first example (kokfu juniper) is a mature tree not a quick fix and it would have required the exact same skill and time to style to this high standard but the second with fruiting branches was very poor - but it did not win?.... did it ? if so nothing was gained this time from poor mastery of the technique of illusion. (I would be equally proud of tree one but embarrassed by tree 2)

a good thread from those sticking to the subject

marcus

Marcus,
thanks!

Yes, some great trees that we know of are not what they seems to be. They were done by known personalities, And This thread used to be heading that way. But, after seeing some of the reactions here I decided not to continue anymore. It will turn very nasty and bloody...I guess the forum is not that ready yet for this kind of discussion. No matter how I tried to stay with the topic, some members would make it personal, and I have to react in defense and it is not healthy.
The forum is not that ready yet for this.

William's examples are just part of the bigger bunch. I bet most of us here got some of these images in our books and they were used as guides on teaching bonsai techniques, but the process discussed is not about tanuki but regular bonsai techniques.

...This is just one of the dangers of tanuki.
Well, I will not dwell on this any further....You will hate me more if I do so..hehehe!


regards,
jun

I was inspired by this thread in its earliest entry's to research how to make good tunaki. Even bought books that had just one example of progression. I created one and its is in my hidden grow out area. It will stay there for 15 years or so. I believe it will take that long for it to become believable. It was a lot of work to carve, screw, ECt. It's something I spent many hours on. At this point it will take a great many years to fuse and look interesting. It is what it is. If it works I think I would brag about what it actually is as opposed to pass it off as something nature created. It will be a shimpaku that looks terrific if it works and the fact that I fooled you will be awesome, but I would let you in on the secret within minutes, because I would want you to know I had the skill to create such a thing. And not that I just had the money to buy such a thing. It has its place. This is just a hobby for most of us. Too much anger in the discussion. A bit silly. I love this thread. Makes make sure I pay more attention to my shimpaku stuffed into the great big piece of deadwood I have carved and have screwed it into. By the way a round tipped router bit makes a great channel for a juniper to grow into. Make sure to screw it down or it might pop out. So far so good.

Next one you do try Gorilla Glue.

Ha! I have actually used that to clue back a damaged branch 1 almost cracked into while wiring a juniper. Worked like a champ. You have to allow room for the swelling properties of the glue though.

No "Ha."  <g>

I did this one several years ago.  It is the only one I have or will have.  Stands 10 3/4 inches from the rim of the pot and is a VERY simple tanuki (and only a yuk-to-fair bonsai).  It also is sadly in need of maintenance, but most of my trees are pretty much ignored these days.  

It is glued into the natural groove in this bit of pine sapwood.  Nary a nail.  And because it is pine sapwood -- we call it "fire starter" here in the south -- it will NEVER rot.  It may burn if touched by a lit match, but it will not rot.

Glue it, wrap it tightly in painter's or some other paper tape, and let it be until the tape rots away. A Dremel and a small router bit takes care of the overflow glue once it is uncovered.

I would post pics here but this site does not like modern technology like the iPad. The link to what I did is below. I used screws so the whip won't pop out of the grove. The bark has almost completely covered the Screw heads. When researching how to do this i came across multiple examples of the trunk eventually popping out of the grove and ten years down the drain. It's on it's way to becoming THE FEARED TANAKI!!!!!!!
This was April of this year when I put it together. It's grown quite a bit this summer. I will carve up the wood eventually, but for know just letting it grow to see how it works.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?9788-Phoenix-graft-with-shimpaku-whips

Jkd2572 wrote: It's on it's way to becoming THE FEARED TUNAKI!!!!!!!

Don't worry, tunaki is much more accepted than tanuki  

Seriously, I like your thinking on this topic and hope to one day be fooled by your tanuki (or tunaki).

jun wrote:No problem David!

As for my thought on the strangler Fig style with dead wood I already explained it above at my previous response to Lennard.

May I add, just a thought. I think it would be more realistic if in the bonsai, if the design of a fig tree  were to be emulated, It would be more interesting and more natural to have a living tree (bonsai) with fig roots wrapping around its body. It's like two bonsai in one pot, In nature we could find more of this "period" where the process of fig is just in its stage of killing its host tree.

Well, it's just my opinion.

regards,
jun:)

Hi Jun,

Sorry for the delay in responding, I like your thoughts on the Strangler fig and it is something that over the coming summer, I will look for suitable material to create one, although it will take a number of years to look promising, it's certainly something I am going to look into further. Thank you for that mate.

It has been an interesting thread, this isn't directed at you Jun but a comment on a couple things in here which I guess could be another way of looking at it.

I too read the interview on bursabonsai.com with Mr Lo and did find it interesting how it said that some analysts are arguing about is Japanese Bonsai in "Asleep" mode, after seeing the trees that Mr Valavanis posted that were on display at top Japanese Shows, perhaps the Japanese are far more progressive than what we think and give credit for and have merely scratched the surface on what actually there is.

Cheers

David