Fault in design

[img][/img][img][/img] hi robert, this is a before and after pic but it was taken last year and the foliage is looking better now , when i get time i will post an upto date photo . you are right the thais are generally frightened about pemphis , the comment i hear all the time is they worry about keeping them far from the sea and away from their natural environment ????? but thats like saying do not bring in a juniper from taiwan into europe . i do give it salt and use either rock salt or reef aquarium salt mix , thinking there may be trace elements in the reef aquarium salt . it,s planted in a mix of lava rock <pumice > and coral rock , i have just been able to buy volcanic sand at last . khaimaraj, i find hardwood cuttings to work best and also they air layer easily. with the cuttings plant them deep into the soil mix . you can see why i want to change the pot . regards john

jrodriguez wrote:

Robert Steven wrote:Thanks Jose.
Basically leaves size can be reduced significantly by proper ramification structure. Each following section of branch created by buds breaks will produce smaller leaves, but I have no clue on how sea water can produce smaller leaves. Any logical explaination ?

Robert,

I have given your question some thought and the answer is, i don't know. All i kniw is that other trees that have not been treated have fairly large leaves. Have some faith in me bro! I will definitely find the answer. All i know is that leaves are really small, like the pictures show.

I found some explanations here:

http://snipurl.com/26j89lv

Plant root cells contain a membrane which allows water to pass through, but which prevents salt from entering. As the soil’s salt content increases, it becomes more difficult for water to pass through the membrane into the root. In addition, if salt levels get high enough they may actually dehydrate roots or cause “salt burn” by drawing water out of root cells. High levels of soluble salts also cause changes to soil structure, resulting in compacted soils that are problematic for plants. Because salts bind with soil clays, causing them to swell, compaction occurs more frequently in clayey soils than in sandy soils. Compaction causes reduction of pore spaces between soil particles, reducing water and oxygen penetration into the soil, and water drainage from the soil. As a result, water and oxygen availability to plant roots, and consequently plant growth and pest resistance, is affected.

and:

Plant damage due to saline soils becomes evident more slowly than plant damage due to salt spray. At elevated levels, soil salts are harmful to seed germination and plant growth. General symptoms include stunted growth and reduced yields. All parts of the plant, including leaves, stems, roots and fruits, may be reduced in size. The signs and symptoms displayed by deciduous and broad-leaved trees and shrubs include leaf necrosis (death), marginal leaf or needle burn, leaf drop, and eventual plant death. Entire leaves can be affected and drop prematurely. Buds may fail to open or grow, and branches may die. Sometimes deciduous trees may exhibit early fall color and leaf drop. Salt damage on deciduous trees and shrubs usually becomes evident in late summer following the growing season, or during periods of hot, dry weather (summer drought).
On conifers (firs, junipers, pines, spruces), damage appears as brown needle tips. The brown discoloration progresses toward the base of the needles as salt exposure increases. Salt damage on evergreen trees and shrubs [both conifers and broadleaf (hollies, photinia, southern magnolia)] usually first appears in late winter to early spring and becomes more extensive during the growing season. In extreme situations, trees and shrubs will die due to soil salt damage.

This seems very stressful for the tree. I am not sure the leaf reduction is worth the risk. You can also achieve reduced leaves by (accidentally) applying roundup to broadleaf foliage.. The tree will survive. Good old ramification still leads to longlasting results..garanteed salt free.

Best,
Dorothy

Here is the more scientific version for the botany enthusiast. It really explains the mechanics behind the process:

redsalinidad.com.ar/assets/files/revisiones/lauchli%20grattan.pdf

Moments after salinization, cells dehydrate and shrink, but regain their original volume hours later. Despite this recovery, cell elongation and to a lesser extent cell division, are reduced leading to lower rates of leaf and root growth. Over the next days, reductions in cell division and elongation translate into slower leaf appearance and size. Plants that are severely salt-stressed often develop visual injury due to excessive salt uptake. After weeks, lateral shoot development is affected and after months, clear differences in overall
growth and injury are observed between salt-stressed plants and their non-stressed controls. Understanding these temporal differences in response to salinity, Munns (2002a,
2005) developed the concept of the ‘two-phase growth response to salinity’. The first phase of growth reduction happens quickly (within minutes) after exposure to salinity. This response is due to the osmotic changes outside the root causing changes in cell-water relations (osmotic effect). The osmotic effect initially reduces the ability of the plant to absorb water. This effect is similar to water stress and shows little genotypic differences. Several minutes after the initial decrease in leaf growth, there is a gradual recovery of the growth rate until a new steady state is reached, dependent upon the salt concentration outside the root (Munns, 2002a). The second much slower effect, taking days, weeks or months
is the result of salt accumulation in leaves, leading to salt toxicity in the plant, primarily in the older leaves (i.e. salt-specific effect). This salt toxicity can result in the death of leaves and reduce the total photosynthetic leaf area. As a result, there is a reduction in the supply of photosynthate to the plant, affecting the overall carbon balance necessary to sustain growth (Munns, 2002a). Salt toxicity primarily occurs added gradually in the older leaves where Na and Cl build up in the transpiring leaves over a long period of time, resulting in high salt concentration and leaf death. Leaf injury and death is probably due to the high salt load in the leaf that exceeds the capacity of salt compartmentation in the vacuoles, causing salt to build up in the cytoplasm to toxic levels (Munns and Termaat, 1986; Munns 2002a; 2005; Munns et al, 2006). The rate at which leaves die and thus reduce the total photosynthetic leaf area determines the survival of the plant. If new leaves are produced at a rate greater than the rate at which old leaves die, there are enough photosynthesizing leaves for the plant to flower and produce seeds, although at reduced numbers. If, however, old leaves die faster than new leaves develop, the plant may not survive long enough to supply sufficient photosynthate to the reproductive organs and produce viable seeds. Based on this two-phase concept, the initial growth reduction for both salt sensitive and salt tolerant plants is caused by an osmotic effect of the salts in the medium outside the roots. In contrast, in the second phase, a salt-sensitive species
or genotype differs from a more salt tolerant one by its inability to prevent salt from accumulating in transpiring leaves to toxic levels (Munns et al, 2006).

Dorothy,

Sorry to say this, but... Some sea dwelling species, like mangroves, have evolved along the tidal and intertidal zones for centuries. Because of this, all tolerate saline soil and have deviced ways to cope with it. Conocarpus is not the exception.

While transplanting one of my treated trees, roots were extremely healthy, fleshy and red in color. No dehydrated/deformed roots were present. Also, my trees are planted in 100% soiless mix; pure sand. No clay or clay like soils present.

In their native habitat, at least in my island, buttonwood have tiny leaves and abundant ramification. Once collected, leaves become huge, thin and suceptible to leaf rust. I have yet to see leaf rust present in natural conocarpus.

Mangrove trees and mangrove like species grow where no tree is able to grow before. Thay are able to survive inundation by salt and soil that is unstable and poor in oxygen. To deal with salt, all mangrove trees exclude some salt at the root level and can tolerate more salt in their tissue than normal plants, often in quantities that will kill other plants. A few can tolerate high levels of salt in their tissues and their sap can be up to one-tenth as salty as sea water.

Although you information is correct in regards to other species, it does not apply to mangrove and mangrove like species.

I believe that some of the pests that we encounter while growing conocarpus in captivity proliferate because the tree has no salt spray present. In terms of using 'round up' and judging by conocarpus' intolerance of some other chemicals like malathion, i doubt that they will survive.

By the way, i am not advocating for the use of sea water in any of the member's trees. I am merely pointing out and sharing my own experience in my back yard. If you have been successful growing your trees with your methods, i suggest you keep on doing so. The only thing i ask is that you keep an open mind in regards to what others do. If my experience produces good, long term results, improovements on this tree species can be achieved. With risks come great opportunity. With failure, comes a chance to improove.

Regards,

Jose Luis

Thank you so much Dorothy for the valuable information.
Despite of any resistance on pemphis and Buttonwood to salt water, the reduced leaves size as Jose does clearly proves Dorothy's information works as well; otherwise there will be no such significant reaction. The problem is we don't know at which level they can coup such treatment..and I won't make my trial. However, this broaden our knowlwdge in our bonsai practice.

And John, thanks for the photos. Did you use the big pot for faster growing or any other reason ?

Interesting,

on our side. Trinidad is one giant deposit of sticky, but very rich yellow clay or variations. Some forms of clay are hardened almost to stone [ but will decay, as those who tried building with it as stone and cement,] and the Northern Range is a mismash of limestones/marble and yet more clay with micas.

So the Conocarpus decided to move from behind the mangroves, and became primary trees on the exposed shores, growing through a thin layer of windblown sand and into clays.
The leaves are thick and coarse, as are those of the seagrapes. Inland away from the seablast, in our wetlands, often shielded by hills, buttonwoods grow to become 30' [ say 9m ] trees and as wide, with fine, thin leaves.

Very dense of leaf but not branchlets.

Home here, I use an old gardener's rule, full sun and never stand the same tree type, next to another. It encourages diseases and pests. Buttonwood is attacked on our side by parasol ants [ bachac ], and they can defoliate a very large tree in days, if the nest is large enough or hungry enough.

How as far as salt goes, on our side Conocarpus does not need it to thrive.

However, I will test Jose-Luis's ideas to see if I can get better results.

As an add on, seagrape on our side is a tree, able to be cut for furniture, but folk tend to not touch this tree, because of it's beauty, shade and fruit.

Thank you John, and I will try for cuttings in the wet season.
Thank you Dorothy for taking the time to put up all that valuable information.

Weird on our side, many of the inland trees have adapted to seablast and shore life, you meet Fustic and White Fiddlewood, many guava types, orchids and so on, living on the exposed shores. Not surviving mind you, but thriving.
Later.
Thanks to All.
Khaimraj

Some observations on results of salt or diluted salt on Phempis acidula and Mangrove:

1. Brittle twigs and branches more difficult to wire,
2. Leaves is smaller but weaker,
3. Needs more watering than regular feeding
4. leaves are somewhat darker too.

We prefer to use shrimp paste and fermented fish for direct soil feeding and pure fresh unprocessed sea water for leaf spray. Diluted salt is unstable .
If we use Shrimp paste and/or fermented fish the leaves tends to be thicker and stronger.

Jun,

do you think seaweed would also work, it is easy to get over here ?
Thanks in Advance.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Jun,

do you think seaweed would also work, it is easy to get over here ?
Thanks in Advance.
Khaimraj

Yes I think it will...but I haven't tried it yet. It got organic compound. I think fermented fish will also work on other species of trees.

regards,
jun

[quote="jun"]Some observations on results of salt or diluted salt on Phempis acidula and Mangrove:

1. Brittle twigs and branches more difficult to wire,
2. Leaves is smaller but weaker,
3. Needs more watering than regular feeding
4. leaves are somewhat darker too.

We prefer to use shrimp paste and fermented fish for direct soil feeding and pure fresh unprocessed sea water for leaf spray. Diluted salt is unstable .
If we use Shrimp paste and/or fermented fish the leaves tends to be thicker and stronger.

Jun,

I use the same feeding process and i spray sea water, like i stated at the beginning of my reply. I do not pour rock salt nor table salt on the potting medium.

Anyhow, i now rember why i quit posting in the first place. Sharing information is quite valuable to me, but demeaning credibility is another.

Thank you Jun, Robert, Khaimraj and Nigel for your interest in my research. Like i said, these are only my results and i never advovated for anyone to put them into practice. Once and for all, i'm gone...

[quote="jrodriguez"]

jun wrote:Some observations on results of salt or diluted salt on Phempis acidula and Mangrove:

1. Brittle twigs and branches more difficult to wire,
2. Leaves is smaller but weaker,
3. Needs more watering than regular feeding
4. leaves are somewhat darker too.

We prefer to use shrimp paste and fermented fish for direct soil feeding and pure fresh unprocessed sea water for leaf spray. Diluted salt is unstable .
If we use Shrimp paste and/or fermented fish the leaves tends to be thicker and stronger.

Jun,

I use the same feeding process and i spray sea water, like i stated at the beginning of my reply. I do not pour rock salt nor table salt on the potting medium.

Anyhow, i now rember why i quit posting in the first place. Sharing information is quite valuable to me, but demeaning credibility is another.

Thank you Jun, Robert, Khaimraj and Nigel for your interest in my research. Like i said, these are only my results and i never advovated for anyone to put them into practice.

You are welcome Jose Luis, We value your generous way of sharing your research and observations. I hope you contribute more.

regards,
jun

[quote="jrodriguez"]

jun wrote:Some observations on results of salt or diluted salt on Phempis acidula and Mangrove:

1. Brittle twigs and branches more difficult to wire,
2. Leaves is smaller but weaker,
3. Needs more watering than regular feeding
4. leaves are somewhat darker too.

We prefer to use shrimp paste and fermented fish for direct soil feeding and pure fresh unprocessed sea water for leaf spray. Diluted salt is unstable .
If we use Shrimp paste and/or fermented fish the leaves tends to be thicker and stronger.

Jun,

I use the same feeding process and i spray sea water, like i stated at the beginning of my reply. I do not pour rock salt nor table salt on the potting medium.

Anyhow, i now rember why i quit posting in the first place. Sharing information is quite valuable to me, but demeaning credibility is another.

Thank you Jun, Robert, Khaimraj and Nigel for your interest in my research. Like i said, these are only my results and i never advovated for anyone to put them into practice. Once and for all, i'm gone...

Some people still do direct salt application on soil, and are diluting salt with water for leaf spray. Most of us here used to do it, but we found out later the negative effect.

Sad,
Jose-Luis,

it is important for me to see how trees / shrubs adapt to the soil they grow in, and even in this small chain of islands we call the West Indies, there are so many variables / adaptations.
Hope you return at sometime to continue to educate me.
Sadly.
Khaimraj

Jose,

Its always a pity when the negativity of a few cause others who mean well to restrain or curtail their actions.

Regardless, thank you for sharing your insight and knowledge on the subject. Like Khaimraj said there is much more knowledge to be shared in a mutual way but your wishes must be respected.

See you soon.

Regards,
Nigel

jrodriguez wrote:..

By the way, i am not advocating for the use of sea water in any of the member's trees. I am merely pointing out and sharing my own experience in my back yard. If you have been successful growing your trees with your methods, i suggest you keep on doing so. The only thing i ask is that you keep an open mind in regards to what others do. If my experience produces good, long term results, improovements on this tree species can be achieved. With risks come great opportunity. With failure, comes a chance to improove.

Regards,

Jose Luis

I am looking forward to further research on your behalf and your article. When you say you spray the leaves with a saltine solution and then later with straight salt water, does any runoff go into the roots or do you strictly spray foliage only? I am an opportunist in bonsai too, you know that..

Thanks,
Dorothy

[quote="jrodriguez"]

jun wrote:..

Anyhow, i now rember why i quit posting in the first place. Sharing information is quite valuable to me, but demeaning credibility is another.

Thank you Jun, Robert, Khaimraj and Nigel for your interest in my research. Like i said, these are only my results and i never advovated for anyone to put them into practice. Once and for all, i'm gone...

Did not see your comment, Jose. Please check you pm.

Best,
Dorothy

Nigel Parke wrote:Jose,

Its always a pity when the negativity of a few cause others who mean well to restrain or curtail their actions.

..

Regards,
Nigel

Why would you say that? Noone was offensive here. June and myself were questioning the theory. There is nothing bad about that. A discussion on a new theory can be very insightfull to all parties. Negativity is a wrong choice or word. This is a discussion, no more and no less.

Best,
Dorothy

dorothy7774 wrote:

Nigel Parke wrote:Jose,

Its always a pity when the negativity of a few cause others who mean well to restrain or curtail their actions.

..

Regards,
Nigel

Why would you say that? Noone was offensive here. June and myself were questioning the theory. There is nothing bad about that. A discussion on a new theory can be very insightfull to all parties. Negativity is a wrong choice or word. This is a discussion, no more and no less.

Best,
Dorothy

YUP! and this is a very healthy discussion we have here.

regards,
jun

jun wrote:

dorothy7774 wrote:

Nigel Parke wrote:Jose,

Its always a pity when the negativity of a few cause others who mean well to restrain or curtail their actions.

..

Regards,
Nigel

Why would you say that? Noone was offensive here. June and myself were questioning the theory. There is nothing bad about that. A discussion on a new theory can be very insightfull to all parties. Negativity is a wrong choice or word. This is a discussion, no more and no less.

Best,
Dorothy

YUP! and this is a very healthy discussion we have here.

regards,
jun

Jun,
I agree the discussion is very healthy and like you I don't want it to end.

My comment was merely my interpretation of what I thought Jose seemed to be getting at, I don't think his stance is as a result of the queries that June and Dorothy were making, because I too had similar questions. But rather it is the result of the attitude that some members of the forum adopt when confronted by practices which are contrary to convention as they understand them and think they should be employed. Take for example posts made by Khaimraj on trees with a 'naturalistic style' and the type of response it generates from some quarters.

As a newbie to the forum, I'm not aware of issues people may have with each other but it just seems that Jose was reacting to something that HAD NOT YET OCCURRED but that he feared would. So if any offense was taken to my comment, none was meant, apologies are duly extended.

I for one will be testing this theory as the experience of persons like Jose whose climate is similar to mine is invaluable to me. Like others I am always glad for any information that will help me to improve the quality of my bonsai.

So Jose I will add my voice to the chorus who are seeking your return to this thread and other such informative discussions.

Regards,
Nigel

this is an excellent and informative thread, even though i will never have the privilege of keeping one of these amazing trees i find the direction of the questions and answers mostly brilliant. Jose - lighten up and realise more is learnt from the majority of the readers if healthy discussion bounces back and forth between the theorist/teacher and the readers.......throwing the toys out of the pram does not add to the learning experience of any of us
Jun - - - i'm glad i read this thread as you are finding that old fashioned accepted theories are not so good, it is the same here with black pine and juniper - the books need burning, they are very inaccurate and out of date I'm finding - in fact to be honest they are just wrong in may aspects.

cheers Marcus

hi robert , i bought the tree in that pot , i got the tree from a trader in rayong and it was in that pot in cocopeat thats why there is moss on the soil in the first photo, so i carefully changed the soil on advice from forum members from the philippines .it,s not the best material but as my first pemphis i did not want to spend too much to practice on . they are very expensive here , his better trees were about $ 5000 <us> but i will persevere until it does look good and i am hoping to get some more this year but they are illegal to collect in thailand now, my local trader has just come back from the rayong area which is where the pemphis are collected and did not bring any back, because they had none!!!! interesting . regards john

John,
Do not cut the tip/leader of the branch to achieve good and fast branch growth. once you cut it it will stop from thickening . One of the best way is to redirect the tip of the branch upward and let it grow free without wiring the entire branch just lightly wire the base of the branch.

What is your current soil medium? river sand? it looks healthy. ....5000$ is too much.

regards,
jun

marcus watts wrote:this is an excellent and informative thread, even though i will never have the privilege of keeping one of these amazing trees i find the direction of the questions and answers mostly brilliant. Jose - lighten up and realise more is learnt from the majority of the readers if healthy discussion bounces back and forth between the theorist/teacher and the readers.......throwing the toys out of the pram does not add to the learning experience of any of us
Jun - - - i'm glad i read this thread as you are finding that old fashioned accepted theories are not so good, it is the same here with black pine and juniper - the books need burning, they are very inaccurate and out of date I'm finding - in fact to be honest they are just wrong in may aspects.

cheers Marcus

Thanks Marcus. The principles here are basically the same with other species of bonsai trees everywhere. Learn the species likes and dislikes=healthy tree. learn the proper technique applicable to certain species=good design (most of the time).

IMHO, one of the way to move forward is to challenge the norm which we might think obsolete or worse wrong.
Sometime ago, most of Robert Stevens works were not accepted by most traditionalist, they even call his works "contaminated penjing" (maybe they are right somehow hehehe) but it works so who cares, people love the works and are now accepted as natural and workable. the same goes (I think) with Walter Pall works and approach, Same goes with John Naka with some works that are not so "Japanese". I believe also Lo MinHsuan took the same approach which are not the norm in that time in Taiwan. But now I heard that the old norms (like the old ficus design with single apex) were becoming obsolete. So, I guess challenging the norm is not that bad after all.

regards,
jun

Jose...

I think this is a very positive and healthy discussion and I don't see anyone got offended. You have shared your valuable experience despite of correct or not, and I don't see any dismeaning. In bonsai, we normally learn by trial and error through practice, so any scientific information is very helpful to backup our practice. In my opinion, in such constructive discussion, scientific argument has nothing to do with credibility, but everyone learn something..

If you can find any additional scientific information to counter the theory Dorothy found or to support your practice, or to explain why sea water can reduce leaves size and not kill the plants...why not ? I am always learning something even when I am teaching...