Re: Yamadori - Etiquette and Philosophy.

Guest Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:43 am

jun wrote:
MattA wrote:Nothing personal Gman but the problem with foresters is you only see a few of the myriad species in an ecosystem & only replace the few you harvest, what about those you dont see or replace that get destroyed each time an area is logged.

Yes my age is 38 & I dug my first tree, a 25yr old camellia in my parents front garden when I was 9

Wow! Since 9 year old??? Really?

You must have some very old and nice collection by now. I hope I can see more older bonsai.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let me play as the devil's advocate here
Collecting is not bad Per se, People collecting trees should be aware on what they will do to the materials they are collecting. Otherwise, No matter how good your material is it will eventually turn into waste or trash if you are not going to use it properly/Or DO NOT KNOW how to use it...worse you'll kill it, and there you have contributed to the demise of mother nature.
There's nothing we could do about people trying to collect trees from nature, come on!, can you do something about it? believe me I've been on that track before, and no body could stop me then but my self then and I did after a few years, I don't have any club then and learning by myself, I just go with some coal(made from trees) farmers, and would you believe Huge and twisted Phempis acidula were the prime target of coal farmers here, Phempis acidula's coal are one of the best in the world, ouch!...I am not saying I am good (because I am not hehehe), but once a person/bonsaist learned to make simple materials into something worthy to be called bonsai He won't need to collect the much older species as rampant as before, maybe occasionally but not as ravaging as before. He'll learn to respect nature, and he'll be very picky on what he is getting because he has developed a very keen and good eye for useful materials.
A very good lesson I learned from the past- Secure your bonsai fundamentals first before you go on a hunting trip. Do not go in the forest like a wild bonsai person going to war with pick on the right hand and shovel on the other hand with pack of rations on the back,,, unless you are 90% sure that the trees you'll be getting will just be TRANSFER eventually in a different location (a pot).
If you are one of the persons here who are asking for help on how to take care certain species, and asking for tips on how to collect....Do not collect trees YET and learn the fundamentals first.
But then again, who can stop anybody from collecting. I know some folks here lurker and active who were already been caught fined or jailed due to this offense but still collecting trees up to now... hehehe.

On the bright side:
I hope Master Lo MinHsuan could share an input here, because his group/workers in Taiwan has just finished designing young junipers in a several acres of commercial plantation with thousand of trees. It took his "army of bonsaists" more than a week to do the initial twisting and styling. In Indonesia, they have plantation of Casuarinas in an island. In the Philippines, certain groups are doing Phempis reforestration program...and we are teaching coal farmers to replant different species of trees.
How about on your side of the world? What are you doing there?
...

regards,
jun

Well, see, this is why I dont see any reason why I personally should listen to anyone trying to counter what I said in my first post, and still stands, no mather who or what is preached about the topic. It still is uncontrolled greed, it still is about ignoring any individual ethics you think you have about it, and it still is about tempering that inner greed, not necessarily about bonsai. And to clarify it (again), i was not talking about urbadories and gardendories.

And I dont even have to play the devil to say this Smile

I will now stop reading this thread, 'they' dont and wont change anyway, its like in my job (see my earlier 2 posts) Very Happy

cheers

Guest Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:19 pm

yves71277 wrote:
jun wrote:
MattA wrote:Nothing personal Gman but the problem with foresters is you only see a few of the myriad species in an ecosystem & only replace the few you harvest, what about those you dont see or replace that get destroyed each time an area is logged.

Yes my age is 38 & I dug my first tree, a 25yr old camellia in my parents front garden when I was 9

Wow! Since 9 year old??? Really?

You must have some very old and nice collection by now. I hope I can see more older bonsai.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let me play as the devil's advocate here
Collecting is not bad Per se, People collecting trees should be aware on what they will do to the materials they are collecting. Otherwise, No matter how good your material is it will eventually turn into waste or trash if you are not going to use it properly/Or DO NOT KNOW how to use it...worse you'll kill it, and there you have contributed to the demise of mother nature.
There's nothing we could do about people trying to collect trees from nature, come on!, can you do something about it? believe me I've been on that track before, and no body could stop me then but my self then and I did after a few years, I don't have any club then and learning by myself, I just go with some coal(made from trees) farmers, and would you believe Huge and twisted Phempis acidula were the prime target of coal farmers here, Phempis acidula's coal are one of the best in the world, ouch!...I am not saying I am good (because I am not hehehe), but once a person/bonsaist learned to make simple materials into something worthy to be called bonsai He won't need to collect the much older species as rampant as before, maybe occasionally but not as ravaging as before. He'll learn to respect nature, and he'll be very picky on what he is getting because he has developed a very keen and good eye for useful materials.
A very good lesson I learned from the past- Secure your bonsai fundamentals first before you go on a hunting trip. Do not go in the forest like a wild bonsai person going to war with pick on the right hand and shovel on the other hand with pack of rations on the back,,, unless you are 90% sure that the trees you'll be getting will just be TRANSFER eventually in a different location (a pot).
If you are one of the persons here who are asking for help on how to take care certain species, and asking for tips on how to collect....Do not collect trees YET and learn the fundamentals first.
But then again, who can stop anybody from collecting. I know some folks here lurker and active who were already been caught fined or jailed due to this offense but still collecting trees up to now... hehehe.

On the bright side:
I hope Master Lo MinHsuan could share an input here, because his group/workers in Taiwan has just finished designing young junipers in a several acres of commercial plantation with thousand of trees. It took his "army of bonsaists" more than a week to do the initial twisting and styling. In Indonesia, they have plantation of Casuarinas in an island. In the Philippines, certain groups are doing Phempis reforestration program...and we are teaching coal farmers to replant different species of trees.
How about on your side of the world? What are you doing there?
...

regards,
jun

Well, see, this is why I dont see any reason why I personally should listen to anyone trying to counter what I said in my first post, and still stands, no mather who or what is preached about the topic. It still is uncontrolled greed, it still is about ignoring any individual ethics you think you have about it, and it still is about tempering that inner greed, not necessarily about bonsai. And to clarify it (again), i was not talking about urbadories and gardendories.

And I dont even have to play the devil to say this
I will now stop reading this thread, 'they' dont and wont change anyway, its like in my job (see my earlier 2 posts)

cheers

Like I said I am the devil's advocate here...hehehe Evil or Very Mad

Don't give in to too much emotion here,,,I've been there too.
Take a depth breath and relax, It is an nice discussion.

The world needs more people like you. Wink

regards,
jun Smile

Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:37 am

Gman, 13% wow you must be so proud to be that generous to the environment...

Yves, nothing personal but from my experience with beaurocracy .. no comment...

Jun, I have but a few trees in my collection at any one time, I prefer finding &/or growing great material & getting it on its way... the maintaining & glory that comes from it is for others.

I am comfortable with my own collecting practice & methodoly in trialing new species. Making use of those species that get smashed by those spot occurances of clear felling & more often from urban development.. sorry if that offends somes sensibilities or because its for work/pogres/human need etc thats ok but we still shouldnt collect if the species may die.. it may not it may just need a specific treatment or aftercare...

I dont know where I read it but long ago came across a mention of the collecting of old Picea from the north of japan & when they first brought them to the bonsai centres they all died.. until someone cracked the process & now we have all these wonderful old picea..
should they have been left alone? probably..
should they still be left if development was to wipe them out? No
If the way isnt found nothing can move forward...

Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:50 pm

jun wrote:Like I said I am the devil's advocate here...hehehe Don't give in to too much emotion here,,,I've been there too.
Take a depth breath and relax, It is an nice discussion.

The world needs more people like you.

regards,
jun

YES It is nice indeed! And yes the world needs more respect, but its only a matter of time, till that time, i continue my violentless fighting Smile

But all credit to Gman on this one Wink

, he posted a simple truth simply cannot be denied. It only need to be 'digged' (what he said) Smile

.

my personal opinion 'digs' the same truth, was merely adding something about specific natural environments. For that, I allow some emotions to be mixed in (and i'm not a tearjerker Smile

, how else one can achieve anything if your not moved in some way? How can one demand respect for a far bigger power than yourself, that created something you did not ... not respecting that is a crime against yourself too. Greed is a natural instinct, but since we are 7 billion people and the number is still rising... a little controlled greed is appropriate no? Very Happy

So yes, I can feel a bit of angryness, but i canalize it dont worry, how else could I survive in my kind of work if i could not canalize Very Happy

I'm still young, now is the time to be active Wink

To end with a joke: watching National Geographic on a lazy sunday does not mean you have respect for nature Smile

(not personally to you, Jun)

have fun

gman Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:55 pm

MattA wrote:Gman, 13% wow you must be so proud to be that generous to the environment...

Yves, nothing personal but from my experience with beaurocracy .. no comment...

Jun, I have but a few trees in my collection at any one time, I prefer finding &/or growing great material & getting it on its way... the maintaining & glory that comes from it is for others.

I am comfortable with my own collecting practice & methodoly in trialing new species. Making use of those species that get smashed by those spot occurances of clear felling & more often from urban development.. sorry if that offends somes sensibilities or because its for work/pogres/human need etc thats ok but we still shouldnt collect if the species may die.. it may not it may just need a specific treatment or aftercare...

I dont know where I read it but long ago came across a mention of the collecting of old Picea from the north of japan & when they first brought them to the bonsai centres they all died.. until someone cracked the process & now we have all these wonderful old picea..
should they have been left alone? probably..
should they still be left if development was to wipe them out? No
If the way isnt found nothing can move forward...

Hey Matt,
Is that a sarcastic note about the 13% protection l.o.l. That’s the % for the entire province Matt, so what’s the % down under?
I wasn’t arguing about collecting when urban sprawl provides an opportunity ….as I’ve got a few maples from a couple of local city re-developments and a few ditch-adori’s too.

I just know about the forests and fauna around where I live and like I’ve noted before some of the ecosystems associations are very rare due to urban development and there is a large contingent of folks that want to save the remaining areas and to contribute to the recovery of others and its in these areas where I think we should think twice before collecting. I’m sure that many of us have locations with similar characteristics where collection should be restricted.
Graham

Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:27 pm

Gman, I couldn't cite figures for Oz like you have for your province, what I can do is give you a little insight into how the system works here.

Take for example the 80hectares right behind my back fence, its not virgin bush, being logged until about 80yrs ago, but that was old fashioned logging & thus the forest is relatively intact including many higher order species that only come in a complete ecosystem (ground & terrestrial orchids among them). It is habitat for a number of rare & locally endangered populations of fauna & flora. It is also a connecting corridor of remnant vegetation conecting vital north south flight paths for many migrating native birds.

So they want to turn it into houses, first off you take the 80 hectares & do your sepcies surveys and break it up into 8 different sub-ecosystems and show how much of each remains statewide & how little a percentage you want to take. The government agencies who are concerned with protecting the environment look at the statistics & say ok you can take the 2% & that 1.6% but you have to leave that 0.7% & 1.1% because they are endangered populations.

So the developer gets to rip up 60hectares & leaves 20 as 3 fragmented bits that no longer connect for fauna and no longer provide the microclimate & conditions for the threatened species that then also have to cope with introduced species further degrading the habitat that was left originally because it was threatened. in 20-30yrs those patches of bush become weed infested wastelands filled with the detritous of society & finally the councils get sick of it, the land is cleared fully & turned into a 'park'...

Oh but wait, we have to get power to these new homes so the government, who are so concerned with protecting the environment, allow another 10 hectares along the ridge to be denuded for the high transmission powerlines needed to feed this development & many more along the corridor of bush that remains and as each 1 & 2% gets cleared the whole is greatly diminished..

Great system! no?

gman Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:50 pm

Thanks Matt for the example....I’m sure that it will sound so familiar to many of us. They used to call it progress but I’m not so sure anymore.

I thinks it’s about time we start to actually put a value (in line with the $ of clearing it and putting up houses) on these ecosystems/tracts of land so we can evaluate the scenario with a more transparent lens. I did hear of one place in Central America that was looking seriously at something along these lines….can’t remember where.
Cheers

Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:00 am

MattA wrote:Gman, I couldn't cite figures for Oz like you have for your province, what I can do is give you a little insight into how the system works here.

Take for example the 80hectares right behind my back fence, its not virgin bush, being logged until about 80yrs ago, but that was old fashioned logging & thus the forest is relatively intact including many higher order species that only come in a complete ecosystem (ground & terrestrial orchids among them). It is habitat for a number of rare & locally endangered populations of fauna & flora. It is also a connecting corridor of remnant vegetation conecting vital north south flight paths for many migrating native birds.

So they want to turn it into houses, first off you take the 80 hectares & do your sepcies surveys and break it up into 8 different sub-ecosystems and show how much of each remains statewide & how little a percentage you want to take. The government agencies who are concerned with protecting the environment look at the statistics & say ok you can take the 2% & that 1.6% but you have to leave that 0.7% & 1.1% because they are endangered populations.

So the developer gets to rip up 60hectares & leaves 20 as 3 fragmented bits that no longer connect for fauna and no longer provide the microclimate & conditions for the threatened species that then also have to cope with introduced species further degrading the habitat that was left originally because it was threatened. in 20-30yrs those patches of bush become weed infested wastelands filled with the detritous of society & finally the councils get sick of it, the land is cleared fully & turned into a 'park'...

Oh but wait, we have to get power to these new homes so the government, who are so concerned with protecting the environment, allow another 10 hectares along the ridge to be denuded for the high transmission powerlines needed to feed this development & many more along the corridor of bush that remains and as each 1 & 2% gets cleared the whole is greatly diminished..

Great system! no?

yup :-) I'm glad you have great knowledge of this humanoid species, well the subspecies "homo industrialis" if you like, a very dangerous and invasive species. I hope it doesnt kill its parent-species. We need some kind of pestcontrol.

Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:47 pm

yves71277 wrote:
yup :-) I'm glad you have great knowledge of this humanoid species, well the subspecies "homo industrialis" if you like, a very dangerous and invasive species. I hope it doesnt kill its parent-species. We need some kind of pestcontrol.

Not only homo industrialis but also homo beurocraticus

marcus watts Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:58 pm

the real ones are very much a finite resource,

eventually the collection of real ones will be banned once the powers that be realise the damage and destruction to the environment that occurs. I dont mean urban, building plots, stumps or waste scrub land trees - these will always appear and disappear within a decade or so and are no different to garden center/nursery/landscaping trees.....to even claim to be a collector or owner of 'yamadori' from such areas is a bit misguided.....they are just plants we use to play with and they actually fulfill the need and greed of many beginner hobbyists so probably protect true yamadori trees from death at the hands of the masses.

this will leave a black market in stolen trees and lots fall into this catagory - either because the area is so remote you wont be caught or because a deal is done with a TENANT farmer who doesnt even own them in the first place so will gladly take a small payment....But then the flip side is that true bonsai originated from yamadori and it is probably the only way the western grower will achieve a truely aged specimen. I have 3 proper ones- both unknown number of centuries old, both purchased....but i hope that many others did not die to give me these 3 junipers.....i guess all bonsai hobbyists are slightly hippocritical, unless they only own trees sown by seed in artificial conditions maybe ?

many 'yamadori' are actually not that good though - nature does not make 'pleasing' bonsai material very often so i am grieved to see poor rubbish material wired into boring but pretty styles just because they are yamadori, collected for the sake of money. these should be left on the hill for mother nature. We, the actual customer have all the power really - dont buy crap and they will be left in situ.

cheers Marcus

Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:08 am

marcus watts wrote:

....i guess all bonsai hobbyists are slightly hippocritical, unless they only own trees sown by seed in artificial conditions maybe ?

many 'yamadori' are actually not that good though - nature does not make 'pleasing' bonsai..........yamadori, collected for the sake of money. these should be left on the hill for mother nature. We, the actual customer have all the power really - dont buy crap and they will be left in situ.

cheers Marcus

YUP!
That is what I am trying to say. And the question is what can you/we do about it----The answer is NOTHING!!
I've been advocating thread like this for several years now here in IBC. In fact I made lots of people angry and made several enemies...
As long as people (me included) love to see old and majestic bonsai, and to continuing to visit forum like IBC, there's is really nothing people could do. And the best thing we could offer as individual is to improve skills, because improving ones skill will elevate his/her taste level on yamadori and as a consequence will leave the poor materials in the wild.
Now, I don't believe it is about GREED as others suggest, I see it more of a quest, a quest to find something much better of what he or others may currently have.

regards,
jun Smile

Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:47 am

marcus watts wrote: true bonsai originated from yamadori

many 'yamadori' are actually not that good though - nature does not make 'pleasing' bonsai

You hit the nail on the head on both counts but still don't see it, true yamadori & modern bonsai are 2 very different things.

True yamadori will never make good 'bonsai' to take one down that path is to disrespect natures work. The urban stumps & wasteland trees are the best for that.

Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:26 pm

MattA wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
yup :-) I'm glad you have great knowledge of this humanoid species, well the subspecies "homo industrialis" if you like, a very dangerous and invasive species. I hope it doesnt kill its parent-species. We need some kind of pestcontrol.

Not only homo industrialis but also homo beurocraticus

these subspecies even mingle Very Happy

more than you know

but its a good thing governement and regulation is not the same as burocracy, its only at the top that the difference between both is a bit unclear...industrialis pushes beurocraticus and vice versa.

**JimLewis** Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:02 pm

Keep in mind, please, that bureaucracy isn't limited to government. Big Biz has its share -- in spades.

But if we have more (and different) things to say about collecting, let's get back to business -- or wrap this up.

Guest Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:13 am

JimLewis wrote:Keep in mind, please, that bureaucracy isn't limited to government. Big Biz has its share -- in spades.
But if we have more (and different) things to say about collecting, let's get back to business -- or wrap this up.

Its all connected Jim, a little connected philosophy doesnt kill you...
We're all smart people, i guess, and we dont see any of the big names (or frequent posters) in many other topics, it must be a confronting topic, nice. so we must amuse ourselves, no? Its the lounge, so room in a room for offtopic things I guess, even if its 'in' a topic., but we respect the rules, so lets be strict.

Guest Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:30 pm

A little connected philosophy doesn't kill us but it kills discussion on forums.....

Jim,
I read your article on ethics.. I agree it would cause a stir but still think it is precisely the sort of thing that should be posted here & discussed here even tho it is long....

appalachianOwl Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:41 am

To me this is sacred, homage of nature. I agree something should be left/given or both. Weather it be another seedling, herbs, or some other kind of offering, one should not take with out giveing back.
Personal little ritual:
1. Thank existance(endless names) for creating and maintaining.
2. Talk to plant.
3. Dig.
4. Leave offering.
5. Pray for good pot life.
All of what I've collected though has been urban or from private property with plenty to spare. It's really about respect. Protected land goes with out saying, but if channels are gone though and premission granted then the same ritual would still apply for me. The way I understand things I truely own nothing, I belong to land not the other way around. I am the trees and plants in my care's humble servant, not owner.

Guest Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:56 am

MattA wrote:A little connected philosophy doesn't kill us but it kills discussion on forums.....

ok, then I promise i wont reply anymore to your posts Wink

**JimLewis** Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:02 pm

Its all connected Jim, a little connected philosophy doesnt kill you...
We're all smart people, i guess, and we dont see any of the big names (or frequent posters) in many other topics, it must be a confronting topic, nice. so we must amuse ourselves, no? Its the lounge, so room in a room for offtopic things I guess, even if its 'in' a topic., but we respect the rules, so lets be strict.

I love to discuss philosophy -- especially environmental philosophy or the philosophy of science. But I'm not wild about topics veering off course from the originator's query -- tho they often do. We could discuss the rest of these things -- pluses and minuses of commercial forestry practices here and there, as well as philosophy, etc. -- in threads of their own.

As far as my Ethics of Collecting article goes, I think it's pretty long. I'll think about it. Meanwhile it's available for those who PM me.

Guest Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:53 pm

yves71277 wrote:
MattA wrote:A little connected philosophy doesn't kill us but it kills discussion on forums.....

ok, then I promise i wont reply anymore to your posts

Please don't stop...

PS.. edited down from a much longer response for the mods sanity...

Guest Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:59 pm

JimLewis wrote:
I love to discuss philosophy -- especially environmental philosophy or the philosophy of science. But I'm not wild about topics veering off course from the originator's query -- tho they often do. We could discuss the rest of these things -- pluses and minuses of commercial forestry practices here and there, as well as philosophy, etc. -- in threads of their own.

Jim.
they are all interconnected with the subject at hand, by seperating them into threads of their own the interrelationships get lost & it becomes like the system I sooo dislike... split into the 1 & 2%ers we lose so much more

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