CAT LITTER

Smallest bags of turface I've found are 50 pounds (not much different than 40). I don't know about suppliers up your way, but if you ever come down into NY, turface is available at John Deere Landscape stores (https://www.johndeerelandscapes.com/). There are two locations listed near Buffalo/Niagara Falls, and there is one in the Rochester area. They carry the "All sport" version, I've never found any MVP so cannot say if it's the same product. Fortunately, I don't remember anyone ever asking about turface when I cross the border...

As for oil-dri...there are several similar products out there. I've tried a couple of them, one was pretty bad but the other seemed like it might work. It was definitely softer than turface, probably more like akadama in terms of hardness and how well it holds up to water and freezing. As always, experiment before planting your prized trees in it.

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:
The cat litter we (me and you) use, Danish moler, don't break down. It holds moisture very well. I'm looking at growing in this medium as similar to hydoponics. It's a manual ebb/flood set-up. Old school water culture, the moler is there for water retention, balance and estethics.

Maybe I'm just afraid to use it 100% because I don't have any experience with it and I'm afraid to lose one of my trees. It might be a good idea for me to take a cutting from my benjamina and try it just for the practice?

coh wrote:Smallest bags of turface I've found are 50 pounds (not much different than 40). I don't know about suppliers up your way, but if you ever come down into NY, turface is available at John Deere Landscape stores (https://www.johndeerelandscapes.com/). There's are two locations listed near Buffalo/Niagara Falls, and there is one in the Rochester area. They carry the "All sport" version, I've never found any MVP so cannot say if it's the same product. Fortunately, I don't remember anyone ever asking about turface when I cross the border...

As for oil-dri...there are several similar products out there. I've tried a couple of them, one was pretty bad but the other seemed like it might work. It was definitely softer than turface, probably more like akadama in terms of hardness and how well it holds up to water and freezing. As always, experiment before planting your prized trees in it.

Chris,
You are the man! Thank you. I have found a place that will deliver it to my door step but the smallest order would be a pallet I do frequently travel to NY so this is good news until I find a source locally.

That should work! One word of advice regarding the John Deere stores - call the company to get the latest address. The store in Rochester moved and I don't think the website has the correct address. I've never been to the Buffalo-area locations.

Turface:
MVP is a coarseness designation. "All Sport" is essentially the same animal, different manufacturer.
note: "Pro League" is a much finer granule [intended to penetrate a field's playing surface] and should be avoided for our purposes.
All need to be sifted, but the fines are excellent for starting cuttings, worked into a garden bed or added to standard potting soil for houseplants or container gardening.

Saamy: turface athletics web-page lists a retailer in brampton, ont.
http://www.turface.com/distributors/state/
a 50lb bag, while big [30-ish litres?], will not take over your living area. you can store it happily on your balcony for the winter in one of those heavy plastic tubs with lids.
or consider sharing a bag with two or three other people --- another upside of affiliating oneself with a club: it's always easy to find someone willing to go 'halfsies' on bulk purchases.
our club also measures out small bags of turface [granite grit & pine bark] and sells them at nominal profit [by way of fundraising], so there may[?] be something similar underway in your neighbourhood.

rps wrote:Turface:
MVP is a coarseness designation. "All Sport" is essentially the same animal, different manufacturer.
note: "Pro League" is a much finer granule [intended to penetrate a field's playing surface] and should be avoided for our purposes.
All need to be sifted, but the fines are excellent for starting cuttings, worked into a garden bed or added to standard potting soil for houseplants or container gardening.

Saamy: turface athletics web-page lists a retailer in brampton, ont.
http://www.turface.com/distributors/state/
a 50lb bag, while big [30-ish litres?], will not take over your living area. you can store it happily on your balcony for the winter in one of those heavy plastic tubs with lids.
or consider sharing a bag with two or three other people --- another upside of affiliating oneself with a club: it's always easy to find someone willing to go 'halfsies' on bulk purchases.
our club also measures out small bags of turface [granite grit & pine bark] and sells them at nominal profit [by way of fundraising], so there may[?] be something similar underway in your neighbourhood.

rps,
Thank you very much I am going to contact the supplier located in Brampton right away

Well, as long as the cat can tell which is it's litterbox...

Scion wrote:

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:
The cat litter we (me and you) use, Danish moler, don't break down. It holds moisture very well. I'm looking at growing in this medium as similar to hydoponics. It's a manual ebb/flood set-up. Old school water culture, the moler is there for water retention, balance and estethics.

Maybe I'm just afraid to use it 100% because I don't have any experience with it and I'm afraid to lose one of my trees. It might be a good idea for me to take a cutting from my benjamina and try it just for the practice?

Hello.
A Swedish bonsai guy afraid?
What more (information) you want, ofcours it depends on several things but if it works for Ingvar in the same climate, well it must work for...
Another good point is, there is almost no danger of overfeeding.
Sunip

nobody has to invent new ideas about this.

Harry Harrington: http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm

Walter pall about modern substrates (catlitter could be one of those): http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.be/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html

and nor Harry nor Walter invented this, they are just kind enough to gather info and just spread word about their experiences.

about the Zeolite i talked about with my experiences, well it comes from mother nature too since its 100% natural mineral...and you know, trees do grow in stone ground too :-)

Twisted Trees wrote:Well, as long as the cat can tell which is it's litterbox...

Everyone else has overlooked that very important point.

sunip wrote:.....
Another good point is, there is almost no danger of overfeeding.
Sunip

Really? Is that true?

sunip wrote:.....
Another good point is, there is almost no danger of overfeeding.
Sunip

Really? Is that true?[/quote]

Yes, because the tree takes what it needs and the rest (what is to much) will easily drain out the pot again.
Look into the link of Walter and Harry.
Sunip

Scion wrote:

GašperG wrote:….
Some cat litter mediums get way too compact, even to be used "diluted" for the roots that needs to breathe.(like a bad akadama buy - desintegrates in a few weeks ) …...

And that brings me to wonder (even with my 25% cat litter) if I shouldn’t be using a bit of sand in the mix.

There is a statement of yours, Scion, that you grow most of your trees on a balcony of your flat. Judging from your avatar that balcony is actually a lodge, so you can more or less monitor the watering regime of your trees, right? - as long as you have a good catlitter medium you should be fine. (i keep most of my smaller ones in a lodge and i don't care about the medum as long as it allows the water to drain and does not get too compact) .... but if you feel that trees need more "air" i would definitely use part sand or fine gravel, i know i do.....I use much more loose mediums for trees that are kept "outside".
I know you guys get very bad winters up there...so all the long time freezing temps, wind, breez and drafts may play a big role there I don't know
Hope this helps in any way.

yves71277 wrote:nobody has to invent new ideas about this.
Harry Harrington: http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm
Walter pall about modern substrates (catlitter could be one of those): http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.be/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html

Thank you Yves. Yes, I will look at it.

GašperG wrote:
There is a statement of yours, Scion, that you grow most of your trees on a balcony of your flat. Judging from your avatar that balcony is actually a lodge, so you can more or less monitor the watering regime of your trees, right?

I'm sorry Gašper, my English is not very good. I don't know what "lodge" means.

GašperG wrote:as long as you have a good catlitter medium you should be fine. (i keep most of my smaller ones in a lodge and i don't care about the medum as long as it allows the water to drain and does not get too compact) .... but if you feel that trees need more "air" i would definitely use part sand or fine gravel, i know i do.....I use much more loose mediums for trees that are kept "outside".

I'm sure that you are right. If I continue to use soil and cat litter mix then I should probably also include sand for better drainage.

GašperG wrote:Hope this helps in any way.

Yes, it does help. Thank you.

Yes,

I suspect this information was known since at least the 50's, possibly earlier. It certainly was in print in the late 70's. Perhaps the IBC needs to just put up a few pages on the basics. I remember something like this on the earlier version of the IBC.

I wonder if Nina Shishkoff has a way to test the difference in responses to soil types by trees?

Fired kitty litter is most probably = sifted crushed red earthenware brick = red larva from is it Colorado ?

We actually have natural deposits of fired red clay soils from underground gas fires or other means of heat. Called porcellainite.
On it's own, the sifted red brick will grow weeds and trees, so I guess with a little compost, it could be used in a smaller mass, i.e bonsai pot ?
Later.
Khaimraj

Scion wrote:I'm sorry Gašper, my English is not very good. I don't know what "lodge" means.

It's not your English, it was my poor attempt to find a word for a "balcony that is protected from three sides and has a roof over" in which case you have almost full control over watering and protection from some elements....and soil mix wouldn't need to be very loose. - but nevermind that.

Mike I am looking to source some Turface MVP but I have not found any place I could purchase in small quantities, lets say 20-40 lbs bags. Would appreciate it if you can point me to the right direction. I live in a townhouse and do not have luxury of a drive way or a garage and I cannot buy in bulk as I do not have the space for storage and most of my space is already taken by trees

Sorry for the late response. Went away for the holidays.
I get my Turface from Plantworld at Eglinton and Royal York. I actually picked some up just before Christmas because this thread reminded me that I'm all out of soil supplies. They sell it in small bags that they dole out themselves. I'm sure they mark the price up a bit but it's great when you just need a bit. They have a holiday sale on now, 30% off. I got roughly 25-30 pounds for under $11. Not bad at all.

Forgot to say call ahead first. They don't always have it in stock. #416-241-9174

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccOGUj9b6dc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pij3eGv-nW0

those are part 1 and part 2 of Walter Pall talking about modern substrates...very informative, very interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q11HMWatCxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF0W0KKpzS4

and those are part 1 and prt 2 of walter pall talking about fertilizing...again, very interesting and very informative


honestly...those 4 videos should probably be in a sticky or something as they pretty much answer every question a person could have about soils and watering, and fertilizing...and Mr Pall has a way of explaining things that keeps it interesting and easy to understand...

thanks to Mr Pall for taking the time to give those mini-lectures, and thanks to Mr Sandev for uploading thoem on his youtube site...

I lost 2 of my favorite trees which were sleeping soundly in NAPA oil dri and were "watered" by the the cat while overwintering in my unheated garage. Well at least the mice didn't get them. I would also caution that oil dri and generic cat litters my change in consistancy and composition since they are contracted periodically based on price.