Superthrive for Bonsai

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:48 pm

People are people, Brian, with a large number of them being filed in the category of gullible, others under self deluding and others under just plain desperate. Why else do we spend so much on products that we know do little or no good or, in the case of your food analogy, are not good for us. Jim L has got a certain point when he refers to such items in their bonsai incarnation as snake oils. Sadly, irrespective of whether the product works, the marketing hype surrounding many many of these items most certainly does. The Cosmetics, Food Supplement and Dieting industries (to name but three) thrive on it.

And on that note I'm away to try my new anti-aging cream - an intensive retautening gel which has years of Dermo Expertise behind its formula of pro-tensium plus nanosomes of Pro-Retinol A. I have no idea what any of that actually means - if indeed it means anything at all other than the same pseudosciencebabble we find on Superthrive packaging.

But hey ya know what?

It's L'Oréal and I'm worth it.


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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:19 am

Supethrive does not -- repeat NOT -- have a USDA label that lists ingredients -- active and inactive and percentages. What it does have is a soft, puffy claim by the maker.

Unless you are an agricultural scientist and can back up the claimed ingredients with some authority, I'll stick with the agricultural scientists that I know well who say it's hooey.

The smaller bottles don't have the ingredients listed in any country as I understand. You need to look at the gallon lable such as here.
http://www.superthrive.com/gallon.html
Last time we talked about this I thought we had an understanding of this. If that is not enough for you then you probably don't believe that a box of weatbix actually has weat in it.

Jim in the past I have shown a multitude of studies from scientists that show in the field and in the lab that Auxin based solutions work. We have only heard a reference to your friends that say they don't. Do these friends of yours even know what is in Superthrive before they say it does not work?

But here is a quote from another of your friends Brent Waltson.


I will try to take these issues one at a time. First let me comment on collected material. The disclaimer: This is not my domain. I only got my first collected tree a year ago, a Rocky Mountain Juniper from Oregon Bonsai, and I am baby sitting some of Bob's Ponderosa pines and an Engelmann spruce from the same place. I haven't killed anything yet. I want to make it clear that I am speaking about collected WILD trees as opposed to collected landscape trees, which I have a done a fair bit of.

Although, I don't collect, or handle collected trees, I am somewhat familiar with the issues and may have some insights into the problems. It is a big mistake to think that the same solutions that we use for nursery material is going to necessarily work for collected material. And Bretts may be right about auxin being important in root growth in this one specific instance. I don't buy that lack of auxin is ever an issue in properly grown nursery material, simply because the growth is nearly always vigorous and lush. Even mature show trees can't come anywhere near the deficient state of collected trees.

I had a long talk with Randy at Oregon Bonsai on this very subject. The issues, for those who are not familiar with the problems of collected trees revolve mainly around the lack of vigor. It isn't simply a matter of the amount of roots you can collect, but a deeper problem which I think is a root/crown pathways issue. Collected trees simply don't respond to fertilizer, water, and good soil like nursery trees, even when you can get a fairly decent rootball like Jason and Randy do.

I believe the major problem is the constriction of the vascular system from decades of almost infinitesimally slow growth. Hundred year old trees might only have a once inch caliper. The tiny growth rings reflect the incredibly small size of the vascular tubes. Growth in nursery and most landscape plants is based on a system of almost perfect conditions with big chunky vascular systems that easily pass water, nutrients, and especially hormone compounds back and forth from the roots and the foliage. Even severely compromised trees with very little root systems (think bare root fruit trees) respond fantastically in a single season. I believe this is because the plumbing is still in place even though the root system is minimal. This allows strong auxin signals to immediately reach the roots after bud break. Only water is necessary to open the buds and get the process going. This is a one way street until the roots grow and become somewhat established, Once a critical degree of establishment takes place, a shot of cytokinins is sent to the terminal bud and a shoot is formed, and the tree is off and running. You have probably witnessed this dozens of times and never realized what was happening. All of this can occur because of the healthy vascular system.

It is this system that is absent in collected wild trees (at least the best ones). This cannot be overcome in a single season, and fertilizers, nutrients, light, water, and the usual high level of care that we provide cannot immediately overcome it. It some cases it may even compromise the recovery. I have heard it said more than once that high levels of fertilizers can seriously compromise or even kill SOME species of old collected wild trees. I think the jury is still out on that one, but I will throw it out there as a possibility.

Well, that's something to think about for now, probably more later.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

And a couple of studies showing the benifits of Auxin on transplanted trees.

Enhanced Seedling Root Development in Eight Conifer Species Induced by Naphthalene Acetic Acid
D. A. SEABY and C. SELBY
Department of Agriculture Newforge Lane, Belfast, BT9 5PX, Northern Ireland
Seedlings of eight conifer species, Pinus contorta, Pinus sylvestris, Pinus nigra, Larix kaempferi, Picea abies, Picea sitchensis, Pseudotsuga, nenziesii and Abies grandis, were treated with auxin, in pot and nursery experiments. Dilute solutions of naphthalene acetic acid (NAA) were applied at two treatment times, just before and just after cotyledon expansion. Lateral root numbers were increased by up to 20 times on responsive species. Sensitivity varied considerably, the three pine species showing a much greater response than the two species of spruce. In most cases the mean number of induced roots increased steadily with increasing auxin concentration. Forest nursery results showed that NAA could provide an inexpensive method for stimulating lateral root formation near the soil surface. Practical nursery aspects of treatment are briefly discussed.



Titre du document / Document title
Auxins affect posttransplant shoot and root growth of vinca seedlings
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
VAN IERSEL M. (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Department of Horticulture, Georgia Station, The University of Georgia, 1109 Experiment Street, Griffin, GA 30223-1797, ETATS-UNIS
Résumé / Abstract
Transplanting often causes root damage, and rapid root growth following transplanting may help to minimize the effects of transplant shock. The objective of this study was to determine the effects of NAA and IAA on posttransplant growth of vinca (Catharanthus roseus L.). Bare-root seedlings were germinated in a peat-based growing mix and transplanted into diatomaceous earth 10 days after seeding. Immediately after transplanting, seedlings were drenched with several concentrations of IAA or NAA (62.5 mL/plant). Both auxins increased posttransplant root and shoot growth, but the response was dose-dependent. The maximum growth occurred at concentrations of 10 mg.L[-1](IAA) or 0.1 mg.L[-1] (NAA). The growth-stimulating effect of these auxins decreased at higher rates and NAA was highly toxic at 100 mg.L[-1], killing most of the plants. Unlike the growth of bare-root seedlings, plug seedling growth was not stimulated by drenching with NAA solutions. These results show that auxins have the ability to stimulate posttransplant growth of vinca, but their effects may depend on the application method, rate, and timing, and transplanting method. Chemical names used: 1-naphthaleneacetic acid (NAA); 1-indole-3-acetic acid (IAA).

Randy, I could do without a top quality set of tools but if this stuff can help in cirtian circumstances why not learn to use it?

It's a pity you did not elaborate on your use of Seaweed and Superthrive Fiona I was really interested Sad

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:09 am

Seaweed seems to work well on my plants in my climate. That's all I can say. It is an observation rather than a scientific experiment - there are no controls and since I am using it on mature bonsai where each tree is unique, we can't ever truly compare like with like as we might if we took a tray of seedlings. What I have noticed in the three years I have been using seaweed (Maxicrop mostly) is that foliage is greener and lusher. But then again our weather conditions have not been consistent so I can't discount our wetter but generally warmer climate of the past few years as a factor in the trees' growth patterns. But I will tell you that my farming ancestors were not averse to taking the horse and cart over to the Ayrshire beaches and harvesting seaweed to use on their fields - something that I believe happened quite extensively in areas - especially west coast ones - of Scotland right up into the 20th century. Maybe it's something to do with the Gulf Stream warming that we have here.

With regards Superthrive, again I am reluctant to discount it entirely as a product, but as I said earlier, it didn't work in the situations in which I used it. Those circumstances were always where a tree was seriously suffering and in none of the three cases did the tree survive. That may indicate that Superthrive doesn't work as a "reviver" as claimed or it may merely reflect that nothing short of divine intervention would have rescued those particular trees. I am currently trying it again as a last gasp attempt to keep a couple of trees alive. I shall keep you posted as to whether that succeeds or not.

So while I'm being a tad sarcastic about the sheer bullshit of the marketing hyperbole (while thinking that life would be so much simpler if the damn stuff was literally Bullshit), I won't discount it altogether at the moment. I however am in agreement with Glaucus's point that something that feels it necessary to be that effusive in its marketing must have serious doubts about its own efficacy.

It seems to me that there is really only one "fact" here: that the situations in which Superthrive might work are generally not what we require for our bonsai. Routine fertilisers seem to do that job fine.

And even if it is broke, there ain't no guarantee that Superthrive will fix it.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  coh on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:12 am

Even the one gallon label only admits to .09% vitamin b-1 and .048% NAA. So what's the other 99.86%? What's in the 25% of total dissolved solids? What are the "50 instant bio-usables"? I don't see any specific mention of humic or fulvic acid - am I missing something?

I resisted using this stuff for the first 48 years of my life but finally broke down and bought the smallest sized bottle a few months ago, at the urging of some local club members. Figured I'd give it a try - had a few plants that were worked on in the fall and were struggling, probably because of too much root work at the wrong time. They are now doing better, but I could just as easily claim that's due to the warmer weather and better light. I don't have enough plants to even try to do any kind of systematic test.

I really hope that some day (soon) they are forced to actually list all the active ingredients.

Chris

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:26 am

Thanks for that Fiona,
Just to clarify here. My understanding from some one doing the latest research (albeit from a seaweed manufacturer) is that when using seaweed extracts light frequent doses are the most beneficial and will give the results that you describe. It can also be used for transplant shock and such at a much higher dose.
When a tree is suffering, the effect of Superthrive or seaweed at a higher concentration generally does not solve the problem but may help the tree recover once the issue is gone.
Now I tend to be careful here as what we are generally doing is reducing the top/shoot growth in favour of root growth. So you have to consider or take an educated guess that this will be beneficial to the tree.
I suspect that you are taking a gamble adding superthrive as my "feeling" is it could even be counter productive. But on the other hand if a tree has gone down hill in the same manner before Auxin may help the tree recover so you have nothing to lose at this time. It really is a very complicated subject as there are instances when auxin can be counter productive.
But an interesting note to consider is that light doses are very safe in all circumstances and the effects of added auxin are very short lived when washed away.

And when we see scientific studies that state " Lateral root numbers were increased by up to 20 times on responsive species" then I think it is something worth learning about.

It seems to me that there is really only one "fact" here: that the situations in which Superthrive might work are generally not what we require for our bonsai. Routine fertilisers seem to do that job fine.

Fiona I am suprised you can't think of any situation that this could be of use in bonsai. If this is able to speed root formation after transplanting then I would find this a great benifit, especially in bonsai. Also such example as given by Brent Waltson, Then maybe for hard to collect species such as many of our natives in Australia.

Chris the .048% NAA is more than enough in my understanding. Auxin is used in very minor amounts and if it was any less diluted it would be too hard to mix up the correct dosage.
What are the "50 instant bio-usables"? I don't see any specific mention of humic or fulvic acid - am I missing something?

Not really missing anything Chris. Except that from deduction the 50 instant bio-usables and other notes on the label such as ready to be used by plants but not a fertiliser, 25% solids not all water as others, leaves no doubt in my mind that they are talking about Humic or Fulvic Acid. There is no other organic compound that fits this bill.
I am sure this will not be enough for the sceptics but as it is not sold as a fertiliser many products do just the same and It is not the humic content that makes this stuff do what Auxin does. It would still work if that was just water but if they want to add some organic content that I believe is humic then no one can say that is worse than just water.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:41 am

So as not to risk taking Brent out of Context with his quote here is the full discussion with him over at Bnut.
It was very refreshing to discuss this with a clear thinker like Brent but I feel we both left the discussion a little disappointed.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  caver on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:33 am

Hello,

Maybe Superthrive is snake oil, but I can tell you this -

I started using it at age 15 when I became interested in perennial gardening. Generally speaking I don't use fertalizer and food products (like miracle grow, etc) Plants I thought were totally gone have been brought back to life using this stuff. My gardening has been self taught (minus my Bonsai instruction, in which I'm very green) so I make no claim to know what I'm talking about - The fact is I don't and I have no clue what's in the bottle of ST. All I can speak from is my experience perennial gardening. If the stuff doesnt work "miracles" it certainly will not hurt your tree. Whether it's snake oil or not, I'm a Superthrive believer.


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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:52 am

Brett Summers wrote: Fiona I am suprised you can't think of any situation that this could be of use in bonsai. If this is able to speed root formation after transplanting then I would find this a great benifit, especially in bonsai.
One of my situations in which it didn't work was precisely that - an emergency repot where I used ST to try to stimulate an ailing rootball. Didn't work.

An why surprised? I am quite clearly stating that I am not a scientist - all I have to go on is experience.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  stavros on Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:14 am

caver wrote:
The fact is I don't and I have no clue what's in the bottle of ST. All I can speak from is my experience perennial gardening. If the stuff doesnt work "miracles" it certainly will not hurt your tree. Whether it's snake oil or not, I'm a Superthrive believer.


For a moment, let's all agree that it will not hurt the tree.
The BIG question is: Do the trees benefit from it ?? Is it worth spending money for it?? Are there other less expensive products that can do what Superthrive does??(... regardless if it seems that it doesn't do what the marketeers claim)
I would say NO, NO, and NO (YES, there are products that do much more) respectively....
This is my personal experience and humble opinion.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:03 pm

Dilute solutions of naphthalene acetic acid (NAA) were applied at two treatment times, just before and just after cotyledon expansion. Lateral root numbers were increased by up to 20 times on responsive species.

Do the trees benefit from it? The above study and others show Yes, in certain circumstances.

Is it worth spending money on it. Maybe? Depends what you are doing with it.

Is there less expensive products that can do the same. Maybe, but my sums say that the concentration of Superthrive may be worth the extra money.
But you may find Maxicrop plant starter more to your liking
http://www.multicrop.com.au/accessor.htm

This stuff does have many uses such as helping seeds germinate keeping cut flowers longer. Often beneficial to cuttings so although I don't know how long it's shelf life is I would recommend you have some sought of Auxin solution handy.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:24 pm

fiona wrote:
Brett Summers wrote: Fiona I am suprised you can't think of any situation that this could be of use in bonsai. If this is able to speed root formation after transplanting then I would find this a great benifit, especially in bonsai.
One of my situations in which it didn't work was precisely that - an emergency repot where I used ST to try to stimulate an ailing rootball. Didn't work.

An why surprised? I am quite clearly stating that I am not a scientist - all I have to go on is experience.

It is in no way a magic wand Fiona, It is a fact that in many circumstances it will increase the root growth of a stressed tree.
To understand this you must understand that Auxin is a hormone produced by the growing tips of a plant. It tells other tips not to grow (apical dominance) and also tells the roots to grow. The roots in turn produce a hormone Gibbersomething I believe scratch that cancels out the auxin telling the tips to grow.
So you may imagine a healthy tree has hormones raging and interacting causing lots of root and shoot growth.
If for some reason the growing tips are not growing and not producing auxin there is nothing to tell the roots to grow. Adding auxin by watering at this point will tell the roots to grow and in turn stop the shoots growing. Not really sure how this is affected by the seasons but lets not complicate things drunken And just consider this is when the tree should be growing.

Brent rightly suggests that if you prune a tree correctly at time of transplanting by leaving as much shoots as possible the tree will produce all the auxin it needs and can use. Adding more will be of no benefit. In fact it may even hinder.
It is when things do not go to plan or maybe difficult to collect species. Or maybe flat chopping Olives and multiple other out of the ordinary or roughly treated stock that it may be most useful.

This stuff is used with dependable notable results in the turf industry to save on mowing and making more drought resistant by reducing shoot growth in favour of root growth. In the orchid industry to make fruit stay on the tree longer (maybe another use for our shows Wink ) In much more concentrated form to encourage roots on cuttings.
There is no doubt it can make physical changes to the growth of a plant, the only question is can we find a way to use this?

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:44 pm

Brett Summers wrote: Is it worth spending money on it. Maybe? Depends what you are doing with it.

Is there less expensive products that can do the same. Maybe, but my sums say that the concentration of Superthrive may be worth the extra money.
But you may find Maxicrop plant starter more to your liking

And therein lies the flaw in your otherwise reasonably convincing argument: even Superthrive itself on its gaudy packaging states that it is not a substitute for "normal" fertilisers but can be used as an adjunct.

So if I'm going to have to use my normal products anyway, then I'll just stick with that on its own as it seems to get the results.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:51 pm

If it doesn't work the maker of superthrive is one hell of a carpet bagger

I dunno if "carpet bagger" is the right term, but "shill artist" or "snake oil salesman" will do.

As for it being around so long so it must be good, people still pour STP into their gasoline, use Gingko Biloba products for "memory enhancement" and use a host of other "natural" health-store products that have been proven to be purely hogwash, and even dangerous. There are a lot of foolish and gullible (and wishful) people out there.

I guess Brett and I will just have to listen to our own pet stable of experts, but as (I think it was) Coh said, that label on the gallon size (how much does THAT cost???) doesn't fill me with great confidence.

All this said, I have never heard any claims that Stuporthrive damages plants, so if you have money to spare, go ahead and use it. Just don't expect bonsai that are any happier than they wold have been without it.

Nuff said (for this go around), I suspect.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:28 pm

Oh dear. Before I start to get unhealthily paranoid about feeling like the fall guy of this thread (especially since I openly stated that I wasn't discounting Superthrive out of hand) here is exactly my position:

1. I can understand the science of auxins and gibberellins fairly well. When I say I am not a scientist I merely mean that I have not conducted true experiments in controlled conditions (who among us has?) so my "results" are not based on anything other than observation.

2. I have no reason to doubt that ST works in the turf industry or with orchids, or with perennials, or with any of the other non bonsai plant forms mentioned in this thread. I have heard that it also works well in hydroponics. And yes I can see how it may work well with cuttings where what you are trying to achieve is root growth at the expense of foliage. But then so does the hormone rooting powder I have used for decades - probably similar in composition but minus the irritating hyperbole and a helluva lot less pricey.

3. But I am really only interested in how ST may help in bonsai terms and I state again that in the situations in which I have tried it, I have not had results. One of those was a situation where I specifically wanted to stimulate root growth and it is disappointing that the ST did not work there when according to the theories it could and possibly even should have. I have been charitable enough to state that this might have been because the tree was too far gone.

4. In the other situations where I have used it, I have been looking to trigger foliage growth in an ailing tree. Although Brett's theory suggests that auxins mostly suppress foliage growth until the roots have revitalised, the ST packaging (funny how it always seems to come back to that) implies - braggingly so - that it is both a plant foliage & flower growth stimulant for and a plant reviver. All I can say is that it didn't work when I tried it. That is not an accusation of blame against ST as there could have been other factors.

You asked me for my account of what happened when I used this stuff. I have now given it in full - warts and all. Will I try it again? I currently am doing so in a last-chance scenario.

Anyway, white flag raised - I am not the enemy here, even if I still say that seaweed will continue to be my product of choice.


Last edited by fiona on Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:57 pm; edited 4 times in total

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Randy_Davis on Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:45 pm

Brett Summers wrote:This stuff is used with dependable notable results in the turf industry to save on mowing and making more drought resistant by reducing shoot growth in favour of root growth. In the orchid industry to make fruit stay on the tree longer (maybe another use for our shows Wink ) In much more concentrated form to encourage roots on cuttings.
There is no doubt it can make physical changes to the growth of a plant, the only question is can we find a way to use this?

Folks,

I find this discussion entertaining but not insightfull. And Fiona, your not the enemy dear!!!!! There is no magic elixer that will substitute for knowledge of plant morphology, observation, genus or species knowledge and assignment for cause when something goes arye. Brent, In your examples above, the turf industry could do just as well to use a short species or hybrid of grass to reduce mowing. Drought resistance in turfgrass' can be increased by letting the grass be a bit longer than what is usually done (only because for some reason it looks better to some when it's short and tidy). I also don't know about the fruit of orchids. Fruit? or do you mean the seed pod of the vanilla orchid. if that's the case, staying on longer won't produce more seeds in the vanilla pod but better fertilization (pollenation) of the ovary will. I find those examples wanting at best. Yes, the chemicals in this stuff can make changes in the physical plant but most likely not better than other more widely used materials. The crux I'm trying to get at here is it's your knowledge, of your plants, in your environment and the things you either do or don't do to them that is usually the thing at issue and like i said in the beginning, knowledge is power. In the 50 years that I've been growing and propagating plants I've never felt the need to use this stuff or many other of the magic elixers that have come along at one time or another. NPK in some form or another will do just fine when supplimented with trace elements. Auxins, are only needed when your taking cuttings and even then only on some species and in varying concentrations. Like I say, there is no substitue for reading (technical reading about plants) observation, paying attention to what you or the enviornment is doing, assigning a cause when something goes wrong and then putting the information away in your mind or diary of results. Why would I want to find a way to use aother screwdriver when the ones that I have in my tool box will work just fine.

Randy

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:24 pm

Thank you, Randy.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Mike Jones on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:12 pm

Naphthaleneacetic Acid at 0.048% inclusion in ST is what essentially has led to it being removed from sale in certain states/countries around the globe.

I was once a believer in ST; then when I discovered it CAN cause harm, particularly to Pines, in-so-far as the alleged breakdown of beneficial mycorrhizal fungi; I stopped using it.

A couple of months back, I decided with the help of a University research department, to see if I could find out precisely what really is in a bottle of ST. This research is not restricted to ST; 'we' are also testing true organic products, which as many know ST is not. For no other reason than my own interest, as I find the subject of feeding /nutrients/vitamins/tonics etc fascinating, and indeed what can be used and at what frequency (guides only of course, as plants/mediums/conditions etc vary).

Strange how the ridiculous claims and marketing material hasn't really changed in all the years. I realise it is generally rubbished around the globe, which I think prompted me to see if I could find out how it ever became so successful.

Like I say, just because I wanted to. Perhaps I have too much time on my hands Mad

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  coh on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:23 pm

It would be great if someone was able to "reverse engineer" ST and find out exactly what's in it, other than the 2 stated ingredients. Have you started that process? I'm actually surprised that it hasn't already been done.

Chris

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Glaucus on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:49 pm

Plant hormones work on a cellular level. It is not obvious what it will do. It may cause hormonical imbalances. It may cause tissue to grow when it shouldn't.

Growth regulators may be used effectively in some cases. But before you know what it does you first have to do extensive experiements. You don't do that by trying it on your bonsai and conclude it works when your bonsai does well.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:33 pm

coh wrote:It would be great if someone was able to "reverse engineer" ST and find out exactly what's in it, other than the 2 stated ingredients. Have you started that process? I'm actually surprised that it hasn't already been done.

Chris

Easy. (relatively) If you have the equipment and the laboratory.

Chemists call that quantitative analysis. It would tell you the exact amounts of each chemical compound in the concoction. Qualitative analysis could "simply" tell you what was in it, but not how much of each.

I took classes in both 50+ years ago in college. It would be a job, but -- if anyone cared enough to pay for it -- any private commercial chemical laboratory could do it.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  BrianG on Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:55 pm

Glaucus wrote:Science and not suspending disbelief.

Your argument is fallacious anyway. People use it so it must work? That's a non-sequitur.

I wasn't trying to argu anything. I don't know if it works or not. I rely by word of mouth and something being sold at reputable source or company. I don't ask for a scientific analyse before buying something. And I was not trying to say people use it so it must work... I was just stating as a consumer based product... a product is usually successful if they work.... if not they fade away .... when you buy a product and you don't see results do continue to purchase it again... ofcourse not.. and a product that has lasted as long as super thrive is obviously a product that is used more than once by a consumer.. meaning there may be something to it working. I sincerly apologize if I came across as trying to argue what Mr. Jim was saying. That is not my intention.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  carlos on Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:16 pm

No matter what you use, Jim will always have a grievance against it, particularly if there is money involved. He made identical remarks of Hb 101 a while back. Judging from the "quality" of his trees.....

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:19 pm

Ahh. I love you too.

I always dislike quackery -- no matter what it is called 101, s-thrive, Roots (whatever the number).

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:40 pm

carlos wrote: Judging from the "quality" of his trees.....
Can't help but think that is a bit of an unnecessary comment, Carlos. While I personally don't always like the styling of Jim's trees, I can't say I've ever seen an unhealthy one outside of the (very occasional) ones he posts in Bonsai questions or Pests & Diseases when they are a bit poorly.

Mind you, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that somewhere on its packaging Superthrive claims that it has helped hundreds of thousands of bonsai artists to improve their styling technique. Laughing



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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  coh on Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:03 am

carlos wrote:No matter what you use, Jim will always have a grievance against it, particularly if there is money involved. He made identical remarks of Hb 101 a while back. Judging from the "quality" of his trees.....

Completely uncalled for! As Fiona said, the trees appear healthy (and that's what we're discussing here, really)...styling is an individual choice. You could have very easily left out that last sentence.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

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