Superthrive for Bonsai

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  dorothy7774 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:14 am

It tastes somewhat sweet.

-dorothy

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:06 am

You actually DRANK some Superthrive, Dorothy!!!???

Brave woman!

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Glaucus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:19 am

BrianG wrote:
I wasn't trying to argu anything. I don't know if it works or not. I rely by word of mouth and something being sold at reputable source or company. I don't ask for a scientific analyse before buying something. And I was not trying to say people use it so it must work... I was just stating as a consumer based product... a product is usually successful if they work.... if not they fade away .... when you buy a product and you don't see results do continue to purchase it again... ofcourse not.. and a product that has lasted as long as super thrive is obviously a product that is used more than once by a consumer.. meaning there may be something to it working. I sincerly apologize if I came across as trying to argue what Mr. Jim was saying. That is not my intention.

You were trying to say something. What you said literally was that you found it hard to believe people would be tricked into buying something that doesn't work. But in the next scentence you admit you don't do a scientific analysis before you buy something. That's your answer. If you don't make sure the science behind something you buy is solid, will buy something that doesn't work. And that's why things that don't work are used.

Then there's the superstition of people. When a plant does well after being given a certain treatment, a connection is made. This is a neurological truth. It's up to your higher brain fuction to know your brain on a lower level wants to make false positives.

As for marketing, given enough money and very skilled marketers, you can market anything. You can create a new product people never thought about, create a demand for it out of thin air, and sell it. It has been done many times. Cosmetics is one of the best examples.

If you have ever watched a commercial you will know they never advertize the actual product. They don't want you to make an objective and informed decision about their product. Instead, they appeal to emotion and irrationality.


As for science. The burden of proof is on the company making the claim. If they can't tell you what is in their product and have studies backing up their claims, you should assume it is all false. If you don't have this approach you will never be able to find out what is true and what is not.

You can't actually know if Superthrive works unless you have a proper experiment. The idea that the experience of customers can tell you if a product works or not is false. Plant hormones work on a cellular level. Humans can't observe the effect. If a plant is healthy after Superthrive is used there's no way to know if Superthrive played any role, positive or negative.

This is the same as with medicine. A active ingredient needs to be known. The mechanic through which it is beneficial needs to be know and to be confirmed to be correct. Then it needs to be shown that in practice it works as in ought to according to the theory so that it actually helps patients.

But as I said, if you want growth regulations, go buy those. Why buy Superthrive? It's going to be a lot more expensive. You are buying marketed water with a pinch of growth regulator when you can buy concentrated growth regulators without all the nonsense and dilute it yourself.

Also, when a growth hormone does actually do what it is supposed to do that doesn't mean it is healthy for the plant. A plant that is tricked in growing twice as fast may suffer the consequences from that.
So if there's auxin in Superthrive, it may actually harm plants. A product being a growth hormone and actually inducing more growth doesn't mean it's good.


I don't want to rake on you, I just want to introduce some scientific thinking to this issue.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  John Quinn on Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:11 am

So, for the cost of a pizza, you can easily buy a bottle of the stuff and have your own uncontrolled, non blinded 'experiment' of whether or not it will benefit your bonsai. What's the big deal? If you believe in it, have at it. We're not talking about a second mortgage here.
I suspect you will have better results taking all the time spent arguing the merits, or lack thereof, of the product and using that time to inspect your trees and do general maintenance, pest management, incorporate a sensible fertilization routine, etc.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  BrianG on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:48 am

Glaucus wrote:
BrianG wrote:
I wasn't trying to argu anything. I don't know if it works or not. I rely by word of mouth and something being sold at reputable source or company. I don't ask for a scientific analyse before buying something. And I was not trying to say people use it so it must work... I was just stating as a consumer based product... a product is usually successful if they work.... if not they fade away .... when you buy a product and you don't see results do continue to purchase it again... ofcourse not.. and a product that has lasted as long as super thrive is obviously a product that is used more than once by a consumer.. meaning there may be something to it working. I sincerly apologize if I came across as trying to argue what Mr. Jim was saying. That is not my intention.

You were trying to say something. What you said literally was that you found it hard to believe people would be tricked into buying something that doesn't work. But in the next scentence you admit you don't do a scientific analysis before you buy something. That's your answer. If you don't make sure the science behind something you buy is solid, will buy something that doesn't work. And that's why things that don't work are used.

Then there's the superstition of people. When a plant does well after being given a certain treatment, a connection is made. This is a neurological truth. It's up to your higher brain fuction to know your brain on a lower level wants to make false positives.

As for marketing, given enough money and very skilled marketers, you can market anything. You can create a new product people never thought about, create a demand for it out of thin air, and sell it. It has been done many times. Cosmetics is one of the best examples.

If you have ever watched a commercial you will know they never advertize the actual product. They don't want you to make an objective and informed decision about their product. Instead, they appeal to emotion and irrationality.


As for science. The burden of proof is on the company making the claim. If they can't tell you what is in their product and have studies backing up their claims, you should assume it is all false. If you don't have this approach you will never be able to find out what is true and what is not.

You can't actually know if Superthrive works unless you have a proper experiment. The idea that the experience of customers can tell you if a product works or not is false. Plant hormones work on a cellular level. Humans can't observe the effect. If a plant is healthy after Superthrive is used there's no way to know if Superthrive played any role, positive or negative.

This is the same as with medicine. A active ingredient needs to be known. The mechanic through which it is beneficial needs to be know and to be confirmed to be correct. Then it needs to be shown that in practice it works as in ought to according to the theory so that it actually helps patients.

But as I said, if you want growth regulations, go buy those. Why buy Superthrive? It's going to be a lot more expensive. You are buying marketed water with a pinch of growth regulator when you can buy concentrated growth regulators without all the nonsense and dilute it yourself.

Also, when a growth hormone does actually do what it is supposed to do that doesn't mean it is healthy for the plant. A plant that is tricked in growing twice as fast may suffer the consequences from that.
So if there's auxin in Superthrive, it may actually harm plants. A product being a growth hormone and actually inducing more growth doesn't mean it's good.


I don't want to rake on you, I just want to introduce some scientific thinking to this issue.

I'm sorry you are puting words in my mouth.... in no ware in my responces did I say I find it hard to believe people would be tricked into buying something that doesn't work. That's stupid to think so. I said just because you don't know what is in something doesn't mean it may or may not work. That is what I was and am saying.

"As for marketing, given enough money and very skilled marketers, you can market anything. You can create a new product people never thought about, create a demand for it out of thin air, and sell it. It has been done many times. Cosmetics is one of the best examples."

Of course I mentioned this if marketing as you say will create a demand but, only temporarily if the product doesn't work or do what advertised the consumer becomes wise of the hype. ST I don't think has been marketed buy LOL skill marketers.. the label looks like my 7yr old made it... nore have I seen any advertisement for it.... Your wright I should do my own test so see if it works.... and not just listen to others in my bonsai club and others on the web and just because it's sold at some quality bonsai nursery's ..



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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  BrianG on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:50 am

John Quinn wrote:So, for the cost of a pizza, you can easily buy a bottle of the stuff and have your own uncontrolled, non blinded 'experiment' of whether or not it will benefit your bonsai. What's the big deal? If you believe in it, have at it. We're not talking about a second mortgage here.
I suspect you will have better results taking all the time spent arguing the merits, or lack thereof, of the product and using that time to inspect your trees and do general maintenance, pest management, incorporate a sensible fertilization routine, etc.

I agree LOL thanks

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Dave Martin on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:25 am

JimLewis wrote: I always dislike quackery -- no matter what it is called 101, s-thrive, Roots (whatever the number).

Ah yes, Jim I remember the HB101 saga, this was the product that only myself and Peter Landerloss had used, but a number of 'exspurts' pontificated on.........And all I had said then was that had worked for me?

To the original poster use it but do not expect miracles, if it works then continue to use it, if it doesn't don't.

What I find funny is that this is an American product which does make wild claims and adored by some and abhorred by others, which if it it is using Jim's favourite saying 'snake oil' do the USA not have a Trades Description Act or a Trading Standards system to complain too.

Who knows perhaps this the way to rid ourselves of Anne Robinson and Nicky Campbell( a UK joke) they could start up an American 'Watchdog' programme. After all it nearly worked with Gordon Ramsey lol!

Perhaps some of the venom from the thread could be used to manufacture a new remedy.

I am so glad lynch party's have disappeared from the West.
Although I suspect, "Thurs still sum ole timers in them thur Hills!"

Can we move on to some real Bonsai.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Glaucus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:02 pm

BrianG, yes you did twice. Whenever you meant it or not, you did say it, I am sorry to say.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:08 pm

Fiona,
I am truly sorry I made you feel that way as it was very far from my intention. Great diplomacy takes a great deal of time for me so I did fear that you may think I was picking you apart and considered adding something at the end to try to assure you that was not my intention. But I am a, If I have to tell you I am joking then it probably isn't funny kind of Guy. Also I am not into patting people on the back just because they agree with me.
So my mistake and my apologies.

I really hope I am not about winning an argument here. I think we all like to be right but if I was silly enough to never admit I was wrong then I would have little hope of ever being right.
I was keen for you to elaborate on what you had said because I thought you where not biased in any way and I was truly interested in what you had found.

The problem I find is I think the jury is out on whether this stuff has an effect and just want to get stuck into working out what if anything we can do with it.
It is a very complicated issue and always gets bogged down with fiery opinion instead of constructive discussion.

I am also not happy about the comments towards Jim. Sure I don't agree with his stance on occasions but I guess he is not always happy with the way I approach things and that is no reason to get stuck into each other in such a personal manner as others see fit.
As we say on Ausbonsai. Debate the subject not the person.
So again my apologies if I have incited anyone into personal attacks towards you Jim.



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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Randy_Davis on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:26 pm

Brett Summers wrote:

The problem I find is I think the jury is out on whether this stuff has an effect

This stuff has been around for 40 years or more. If the Jury is still out on it's effectiveness that should tell you something. Sounds fishy doesn't it? It sure does to me. I'm not telling anyone to not use it, Use if if you think it will help but I don't think anyone will know whether it did or not. I'm a firm believer in the old adage that "there's more than one way to skin a cat". Not that I have anything aginst cat's I love my Tantom even if he can be rather anoying at times.

Randy
On to another subject, this one has played out for me.


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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:41 pm

OOps I meant the jury has given a verdict. Infact I think they are home having a roast dinner and a cigar lol!

Please read this once more

Enhanced Seedling Root Development in Eight Conifer Species Induced by Naphthalene Acetic Acid
D. A. SEABY and C. SELBY
Department of Agriculture Newforge Lane, Belfast, BT9 5PX, Northern Ireland
Seedlings of eight conifer species, Pinus contorta, Pinus sylvestris, Pinus nigra, Larix kaempferi, Picea abies, Picea sitchensis, Pseudotsuga, nenziesii and Abies grandis, were treated with auxin, in pot and nursery experiments. Dilute solutions of naphthalene acetic acid (NAA) were applied at two treatment times, just before and just after cotyledon expansion. Lateral root numbers were increased by up to 20 times on responsive species. Sensitivity varied considerably, the three pine species showing a much greater response than the two species of spruce. In most cases the mean number of induced roots increased steadily with increasing auxin concentration. Forest nursery results showed that NAA could provide an inexpensive method for stimulating lateral root formation near the soil surface. Practical nursery aspects of treatment are briefly discussed.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:19 pm

For those wanting to read in more detial see here
http://www.bashanfoundation.org/linderman/lindermanbareroot.pdf






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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Randy_Davis on Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:52 pm

Brett,

You should read and digest the content of the complete study. What was found is that NAA was found to influence healthy transpant seedlings for field growing of the Picea, Psudotsuga and Larix species with no effect on the single Pine species in the test. IBA was found to have an influence on the single Pine species. Of the materials used for conducting the test Superthrive was not used. Commercial preparations containing 500ppm IBA or NAA applied directly to the roots for 10 seconds (liquid dip method) prior to planting was the way the test was conducted. The concentration of both NAA and IBA was rather mild being only 500ppm when it is used at 2000-8000ppm for use on cuttings depending on the species. Now, Superthrive, by its label does not contain IBA. It does contain NAA at 0.048% and when diluted at the recommended rate of 1 fluid oz per 500 gallons of water will only contain a miniscule (less than 10ppm) amount of the active ingredient. Again, to say that this should be used by bonsai enthusiasts without regard for what they are using it on and under what circumstances is a rather useless thing to do. In most cases, like Fiona's, the enthusiast is looking for something to heal a plant in stress. How much stress, caused by what is not usually known but it certainaly isn't a healthy transplant seedling that's trying to get fixed up. Remidies for healing sickly plants first needs to be diagnosed as to the cause of the problem first, and then and only then, remedial action can be taken. Broadly accepting this elixer as a cureall for a sick plant or even a collected plant is foolishness and should be discouraged. I think that for bonsai folks that supper should be more like pigs-in-a-blanket and a beer.

Randy


Last edited by Randy_Davis on Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Glaucus on Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:29 pm

Triggering unhealthy recovering plants into growing with hormones doesn't sound like a good thing to do anyway. It may prevent the plant from healing or recovering, depending on the problem and depending on exactly what the hormones do.

IBA and NAA are supposed to do the same thing. But the one is an entirely artificial molecule not found in nature while the other is one that plants themselves use.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  John Quinn on Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:51 am

And then there's the problem of applying observations seen in a petri dish or similar artificial medium to 'the real world'. Isolated preparations of cells under study in highly artificial conditions (in vitro) do not necessarily predict the results one may see 'in vivo', where multiple interactions lead to at times unpredictable results...just sayin'.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  BrianG on Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:09 am


Glaucus, you just interpreted it wrong I'm sorry to say cheers

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:34 am

Randy, Many people seem to be mixed up in the dilution rates for the different applications. They use a weak dilution on stressed trees or a strong dilution for general health or one dilution for all applications.
It should be a strong dilution on stressed trees and a weak dilution for general health.
1 fluid oz per 500 gallons of water dilution you have used is for general health or "constant daily or maintenance use" as the label states.
The experiment is about bare root trees during transplanting so we may use the Bare root dilution recommended by superthrive which is 1 oz per 5 gallons with a 15-30 minute soaking. That would make it 1000ppm.

The experiment above by D. A. SEABY and C. SELBY Only uses NAA and it shows the best results with the three pine species. The conclusion in the last study states they believe concentration and timing can be adjusted to reduce some of the variability which is akin to what I say. I wish we could stop talking about whether it does anything and get onto the interesting part of how we may use it.

Yes the experiments so far are not specifically about Superthrive but I don't think a brand name and gaudy advertising will change the results Basketball
But I do think the best auxin solutions have a couple of different auxins say IAA and NAA so as to cover a wider spectrum of uses/species.


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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:03 am

Glaucus, I can agree to some degree, in fact I have stated just this. It may not be the best idea to apply auxin solutions to sick trees as we can not be sure it is improving the situation. But when we have studies showing Lateral root numbers were increased by up to 20 times on responsive species then I think it is well worth considering when it can be used.
Yet as I suggested to Fiona, If you believe normal practice will not revive the tree then maybe it is worth experimenting with auxin solutions in this way, but I agree it should not be the first thing you reach for with so many variables we don't know yet.

John, I think all of the studies I have shown so far are practical studies in the field or in pots so these are way past petri dishes. But we do not have the money behind us like the orchard industry for the chemical companies to show us how we may best use auxin solutions so it will be upto us to take these studies into more practical less variable bonsai results.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  fiona on Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:11 pm

Brett Summers wrote: They use a weak dilution on stressed trees or a strong dilution for general health or one dilution for all applications. It should be a strong dilution on stressed trees and a weak dilution for general health.
1 fluid oz per 500 gallons of water dilution you have used is for general health or "constant daily or maintenance use" as the label states.

For the benefit of the tape, please note I am now speaking pretty much totally tongue-in-cheek because if you read the "application rates" on the standard bottle of ST THEN you will begin to understand why people could easily find this stuff either laughable or a con. In the one short paragraph it uses as its recommended measures - drops, teaspoons, tablespoons, ounces and fluid ounces. Maybe it's just my suspicious nature but, quite apart form it being confusing, I find that extremely dodgy. And it is even more laughable when you look at the recommended dosages on the gallon drum which states the following: "for trees and shrubs - 1fluid ounce per 5 gallons / for reviving trees and shrubs - 20fluid ounces per 100 gallons" Now my inability to do Maths is legendary but the experts I consulted on this assured me that my own calculation of those two quatities being one and the same thing was accurate. Well duh!!!

Oh, and another little but possibly telling point which further raised my suspicions, on the labels you will find the following:

"Please earn REWARDS ... by sending clear, valid, usable photos proving results" on the gallon can, and on the standard size: "Send photos proving Superthrive helps... Cash REWARDS"

Nuff said? I'm away to take pictures of my healthy trees espite their never having had ST near them. If the only thing Superthrive helps grow is my bank balance then, hey, gimme gimme gimme.


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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:33 pm

I've been reading this with some interest. I used Superthrive last year (2010) and had no different results than the year before last (2009) when I didn't even know it existed. Coincidentally (being new at this) my fertilizing schedule and amount was exactly the same. Then I read, read, read and then read some more and realized that I wasn't fertilizing nowhere near enough. I started to fertilize more this year and this crazy thing happened, my plants look AMAZING. Last year all my pines got needle cast and moth larvae. So far this year, NADA. Everyone at my club keeps wondering what I'm doing that my needles are so green, or why my azalea is so full and healthy with beautiful leaves when it looked like it was dying last year. Everything else is growing like a weed, tridents, crape myrtles, even my quince has put on more wood than ever before.

I haven't used Superthrive this year because I haven't even thought about it. Haven't need to and it hasn't proven to me that I should. I used it all year long in 2010 and fertilized the same as the year before with absolutely no change.

For me Superthrive is out. But like Suthin kept saying when he was here in Raleigh and people kept asking him questions like this "If it works for you and your plants are healthy, then keep doing it." It's not enough that your plants are alive, they have to be thriving.
That's my 2 cents. Thanks everybody for your contributions.
Have a great weekend
Sam


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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Brett Summers on Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:08 am

Hi Fiona
I wrote a fairly detailed reply the other day but one of the kids turned the computer off on me Rolling Eyes
I agree the label has caused alot of issue in this and other discussions about Auxin solutions. The directions do seem confusing but after making your head hurt I think they are a good guide.
I think you may have missed Bare root 15-30min soaking [of], before/above " trees and shrubs" 1fluid ounce per 5 gallons
Then you are correct in your maths that this is the same as for reviving trees and shrubs - 20fluid ounces per 100 gallons. I guess they use a larger mix as you would generally use more solution when trees are in soil and considering this is a one gallon tub which I imagine would be used in larger applications.
But I don't see any problem with it being recommended as the same dilution for both applications.
Yet you may notice it also states (rarely upto 2 fluid ounces per Gallon) This is something that I think we need to understand using this stuff. Different species in different circumstances may take a very strong mix to get a favourable result.
It is interesting to consider here the strength used with an auxin cutting promoter. Same stuff really but this strength will usually kill roots but when cutting roots back (or they have died) very hard where does the root tissue end and the stem tissue begin. Also just as with cuttings there will be a variation in what is the best strength for different species. Some species will get no benefit when using a cutting promoter. There are whole books written on just this subject that we use in propagation.
The idea is generally the same here. We must consider species and size of root left on the tree when considering the dilution strength. So I would carefully read the recommended dosage on the auxin product considering how Auxin solutions work and the material/problem you are facing and make your best educated guess on what may be the best dilution. I reckon a good starting point would be to consider what strength the species reacts to in cuttings and use this as a guide in these applications. We don't need cutting promoters on Willow and I figure using auxin solutions at repotting would be a waste of time as well. Maybe even detrimental?
In superthrive. I would say 1fluid ounce per 5 gallons as a starting point and increase the dilution upto 2 fluid ounces per Gallon depending on the species,the amount of root lost or removed or if you are feeling game and want to see what happens.

Also this may be a good time to make it clear. I am not sure there is any evidence to support regular use of superthrives active ingredient "auxin" will help with growth or even health for that matter. But maybe there is some truth to this and from what I suspect is the humic content.
So my "feeling" is that if it is not for transplanting or stress then switch to seaweed concentrates or even humic acid for day to day health and vigor as there is evidence that these can help for this application.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Qlander on Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:33 am

My views on the subject?

If you think the stuff works for you - use it. If you don't think it works for you - don't use it.

It's way too expensive here in Australia for the average person to use the stuff continually.

I've used the stuff but have never seen any positive results that I could attribute to it. I only used it because a small bottle was given to me. I sure wouldn't be paying up to AU$35.00 for a 50ml bottle.

If you want a cheap substitute, use Marmite/Promite/Vegemite watered down to the recommended doses of ST. If it doesn't work, drink it or use whatever you have left in the jar on a piece of toast. thumbs up

If you're looking for something to reduce shock etc when re-potting or root pruning, use Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom Salts) dissolved in water and dunk your pot/Tree into it. I don't know about other parts of the world but here in Australia we have Rural Suppliers (everything for the farmer). Epsom Salts in the Supermarkets is about AU$3.85 for 350gms. Magnesium Sulphate from the Rural Suppliers is about AU$26.00 for 25 kilograms.

Epsom Salts is just a fancy marketing name for Magnesium Sulphate (check out the ingredients on the box - there is only one).
If you don't think Magnesium Sulphate works to reduce transplant shock, run a bath, put some in the water and relax - supposed to be good for aching muscles etc.

I think good horticultural practices coupled with a good watering and fertilizing regime will be far more beneficial than some 'miracle cure' in a bottle.

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  JimLewis on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:59 pm

Gee! Five (mostly useless) pages, including some interminably long and often irrelevant essays) on this "stuff."

Doncha think we've said enough?

_________________
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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Guest on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:08 pm

Don't know how I missed this one. Very interesting topic, to which I'd like to throw in my two penneth.... Laughing

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

Post  Mike Jones on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:50 pm

will baddeley wrote:Don't know how I missed this one. Very interesting topic, to which I'd like to throw in my two penneth.... Laughing

Nice one Mr B Very Happy

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Re: Superthrive for Bonsai

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